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Air Berlin Reaches Out For Condor  
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9374 posts, RR: 29
Posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3332 times:

German newspaper DIE WELT reports this morning, that Air Berlin is interested to buy 75,1% of Condor. The deal will be made by shares swap, whereby Thomas Cook will get 29,99% of Air Berlin shares in exchange.

The deal is scheduled to take place in February 2009 and is subject to the monopolies and mergers commission approval.

.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9374 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3306 times:

Forgot to mention that LH has the right to exercise its option, which expires in February 09. Means, LH can spoil the deal as well.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3304 times:

I hope the Kartellamt won't approve of this. AB could become much too big in one blow. I mean, aren't they happy with the acquisition of LT, or why do they want acquire DE in the first place?

User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3291 times:

AB takes too much in a short periot of time. I think they will go bankrupt when they keep on expanding so fast...

Only my opinion.

Regards


User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 3):
AB takes too much in a short periot of time. I think they will go bankrupt when they keep on expanding so fast...

well, I'm starting to get the feeling they might fear going bankrupt if they don't...



300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3275 times:

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 4):
well, I'm starting to get the feeling they might fear going bankrupt if they don't...

Perhaps they are allready bankrupt, what at this time might be possible in my eyes. But you could be right.


User currently offlineLHSTR From Germany, joined Mar 2001, 226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3249 times:

If I was LH I would make my decision regarding the usage of the buy-option right now. And leave AB and DE in the dark until Feb 2009...

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9374 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3239 times:

The LBA would pull their licence if they were bancrupt. besides, in today's world, a CEO or a managing director does not only face a jail term if he fails to declare bancruptcy in time, he is liable with his personal assets for everything from the day the company ran out of funds and used up more than half of its capital.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineTriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4695 posts, RR: 42
Reply 8, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3135 times:

In the sake of competition and consumer-friendly prices, I hope the latest assimilation attempt of the "ABorg" won't get approval.


Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter):
is subject to the monopolies and mergers commission approval.

I think that is the major issue ...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
LH can spoil the deal as well.

.. and that another one.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 3):
I think they will go bankrupt when they keep on expanding so fast...

Where is the economic logic in this? What actually took place is that Arcandor would bring in DE into AB and get a share of AB for compensation. AB pays with its own shares meaning that the existing shareholders pay for it indirectly by accepting that their share relatively decreases. It does not effect liquidity, which is the crucial factor for airlines.

This is an absolutely low risk venture from a financial perspective.

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 5):
Perhaps they are allready bankrupt, what at this time might be possible in my eyes. But you could be right.

Sure and in that situation Arcandor which is just happy to be out of its own financial trouble would take over 29,99% of AB?  Yeah sure

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 8):
In the sake of competition and consumer-friendly prices, I hope the latest assimilation attempt of the "ABorg" won't get approval.

IF, big IF, this goes through antitrust authorities AB will have to let loose a big share of its Spanish operations. The only thing that antitrust authorities would greenlight without conditions is a X3 / DE merger.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2974 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 9):
IF, big IF, this goes through antitrust authorities AB will have to let loose a big share of its Spanish operations.

Just out of curiousity, why would they object? Even a merged AB+DE is still smaller than LH. And altough I believe AB+DE to be the biggest on Germany-Spain, do they have a majority share? It would seem to me that there is a fierce competition (by LH, 4U, X3, FR, U2, XG) on the market. And next to that, there are hardly any barriers to entry (like slot-controlled airports). When LH and LX merged, they had to give FRA-ZRH slots to AB (who only used them for a couple of weeks); but I don't really see similar city-pairs with AB+DE; maybe FRA-PMI?


User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2935 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 9):
Where is the economic logic in this? What actually took place is that Arcandor would bring in DE into AB and get a share of AB for compensation. AB pays with its own shares meaning that the existing shareholders pay for it indirectly by accepting that their share relatively decreases. It does not effect liquidity, which is the crucial factor for airlines.

This is an absolutely low risk venture from a financial perspective.

I didn't mean AB doesn't have the money for this deal. But history shows that lots of companies went bankrupt because of to fast growth. Hunold has to deal with diffrent philosophies of running airlines and get them under one roof, not to mention the fleet diversety, pay scales and on and on. LT and DE aren't really wealthy and haelthy airlines. Hunold should look after getting LTU back on track and then get the money for his B787s...


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9374 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2920 times:

Hiernie - there are 1 1/2 years until such a deal could become reality. That's a long time to consolidate the present situation. Hunold has a hands on management style and he wants and get things done yesterday. They have strong financial backing and they are a force in the market.

The DE/AB deal makes a lot of sense, especially when you look at the aircraft AB has on order. They take the load off Arcandor's back to invest and renew the DE fleet of ageing 763s.

That potential mrger makes a lot of sense in many ways. Competition is still there, we have to look at the European market, not at the German alone. No reason for the Kartellamt to object.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2895 times:

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 11):
But history shows that lots of companies went bankrupt because of to fast growth.

Yes, that happens when companies cannot bring up sufficient financial means to bear the growth. But this deal does not effect AB financial means. In fact it may even benefit cash flow, depending on how fast they can leverage the synergies. But especially at this juncture Hunold has been pretty successful so far.

IF it goes through it is indeed a pretty clever move, in a multitude of dimensions. Hunold will then have a non-private shareholder with a blocking minority that is at the same AB's largest or second largest customer (?thinkso so .. either TUI oder ThomasCook)). Sounds like "Deutschland AG" to me ...


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9374 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2871 times:

Fully agree. Plus, look at the synergie effects on long distance routes, where LT and DE often fly the same route the same day. Plus, the 763s would leave the fleet asap with theoption of interim lease of 332s until the first 787s arrive, or just keep flying them up to that date. in any case, the 763s would then go before the LTU 330s-

Looks so good, that it is highly likely that LH will poison that soup before Hunoldt calls for dinner.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

There is a very interesting interview with Hunold in the latest issue of "Der Spiegel" in which he was asked if AB was growing to fast by acquiring DBA and LTU. He said it was the only possible way to expand by acquiring other airlines and he would never have gone for LTU if he did not get DBA first with its beg feeder network.
I think we should be glad that AB is taking this steps with AB we will have a true alternative to Lufthansa in Germany for flights within Germany, Europe and soon to the US and Asia, too.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2832 times:

I hope that AB is really knowing what they are doing. I seriously hope that they do not break down because that would mean a loss of a awful lot of jobs and chaos as well. They should establish what they have now and only later ( probably later 2009) try to overtake Condor. My 2 cents.  Smile

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

Will be an interesting fleet

F100 (AB)
737-300/-700/-800 (DBA und AB)
A319s/A320/A321(AB undLTU)
757-200/-300 (Condor and Belair)
767-300 (Condor und Belair)
A330-200/-300 (LTU, wearing both AB and LTU titles)
and in the future 787-8

The F100s are said to go in the near future, if they find somebody to buy the 757-300s they will likely go, too.
I don´t think they will get rid of the 767s soon since the leases of the A330 expire soon and they need longhaul aircraft, I don´t think that they will find A330s on the market soon.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2633 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 15):
I think we should be glad that AB is taking this steps with AB we will have a true alternative to Lufthansa in Germany

On the other we do not need anymore consolidation then. I just booked PAD-MUC-PAD on LH for next Thursday and paid 471€. That is so sick. I hate monopolies.

Quoting Columba (Reply 17):
Will be an interesting fleet

Which surely has an impact cost. Hunold should hurry up to get his fleet consolidated.


User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2591 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 17):
since the leases of the A330 expire soon and they need longhaul aircraft, I don´t think that they will find A330s on the market soon.

Why not make new leasing contracts?


User currently offlineMH017 From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 1690 posts, RR: 30
Reply 20, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2466 times:

AB has changed their TopBonus program as well, adding LTU and Belair to the program !
Would be nice if Condor would be added to their program in the future  Smile

In just a few weeks from now, the new Top Bonus frequent flyer program will expand to cover four airlines on four continents worldwide. From 1st November 2007, Top Bonus will include flights with Air Berlin, LTU, belair and NIKI.

What’s more, you’ll also enjoy exclusive status privileges on long-haul flights.
Whatever you’re planning – whether it’s shopping in Paris or business in Munich, relaxing holidays in Thailand or a long weekend in Berlin – have a look today at the changes effective from 1st November.

Earn miles worldwide – on LTU and belair flights too.
Choose your tariff – and decide how many miles you’ll earn on each trip.
Enjoy special treatment while on holiday – as a Top Bonus Service Card holder, you’ll qualify for extra benefits, no matter how many miles you have in your account.
Select how you spend – when you spend your miles, you can choose a completely free flight or save yourself miles by paying taxes and charges.
When you spend miles, you can look forward to exclusive new services:

Award tickets valid worldwide – on any route operated by the four Top Bonus airlines.
Earn flights faster – simply buy the missing miles you need for a free flight.
Transferable award flights – irrespective of your membership status.
Your seat is reserved – on every flight we will reserve a number of seats for award bookings, all year round.
Earn status and award miles from 1st November:
You can earn status and award miles on all flights operated by the four Top Bonus airlines. Moreover, you can earn award miles with Top Bonus partners around the world or by simply making a purchase with the Air Berlin MasterCard. Of course your miles already collected count likewise towards your status and towards award tickets.



don't throw away tomorrow !
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19227 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2452 times:

I flew AB four times in August. Three of those four were delayed - one by over one hour.

I wasn't impressed by the inclusive refreshments on domestic flights: a packet of crisps and a cup of lukewarm tea. It was marginally better on international routes: a bagel and a cup of lukewarm tea.

I did appreciate the assigned seating - although there was one mishap.

Overall, AB was OK, probably 6/10. However, it really needs to improve its product - which seemed from my experiences to be over promising and under delivering - when I can get on time flights that are far cheaper with FR and EZY.

[Edited 2007-09-20 22:11:40]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6807 posts, RR: 77
Reply 22, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2420 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 21):
I flew AB four times in August. Three of those four were delayed - one by over one hour.

I'd be more concered if 30 out of 40 flights had been delayed...flying four sectors on an airline is definitely not enough to judge the ontime performance. Apart from that, flying out of large gateways and offering connections naturally causes more delays than not doing so.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 21):
I wasn't impressed by the inclusive refreshments on domestic flights: a packet of crisps and a cup of lukewarm tea. It was marginally better on international routes: a bagel and a cup of lukewarm tea.

Not to forget you are also offered coffee (hot, and quite tasty - in contrast to certain LCC carriers' overpriced instant stuff) and a selection of cold drinks.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 21):
Overall, AB was OK, probably 6/10. However, it really needs to improve its product - which seemed from my experiences to be over promising and under delivering - when I can get on time flights that are far cheaper with FR and EZY.

AB also offers a good selection of newspapers and magazines, IFE (depending on the type), a decent frequent flyer program and it doesn't leave me stranded if anything goes wrong. Enough reasons for me (and many others) to pay some extra money (which is not always necessary, btw). Though, I admit, HG is even a class better than AB.  Wink

But no need to discuss personal preferences - there will always be people driving Dacia and there will always be others enjoying their BMWs...  Wink


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
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