Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
UA's 744 Fleet  
User currently offlineCtang From Australia, joined Jul 2001, 139 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10226 times:

UA has a large fleet of ageing 747s. What will they replace them with? Maybe A380s? If they do, this would be a huge blow to Boeing as they are also based in Chicago.

What are your thoughts?

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10165 times:

Quoting Ctang (Thread starter):
UA has a large fleet of ageing 747s

UA has 30 B744s at the moment. Twelve of these were delivered between 1989 and 1994, while the rest has arrived between 1996 and 2000 (Five in 1997 and seven in 1999). These are not so old, and when you remember that in the past UA has operated 25 or so year old 741s, there's still some time left for the 744s, unless they decide to go for a younger fleet.

Quoting Ctang (Thread starter):
What will they replace them with? Maybe A380s?

How about a mix of B748s and A380s ?


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7007 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10145 times:

Many people here assume that UA will be a natural customer for the 787. In a sense, they are but they must be one of the best medium-term bets Airbus have for widebody sales in the USA. I can't ever see, say, AA flying A350s but I could see UA buying them to replace 772s. In that case, might the A350-1000 be a replacement for their 744s, just as several airlines are using the 773ER to replace 744s? And as for the A380, it can't be ruled out. Am I not correct in saying that UA fly their 744s mostly on Pacific routes? The A380 would do that job admirably.

Might Airbus pull off a coup and sell a mix of A350s and A380s to UA? I'm not here to say it's likely but I wouldn't rule it out.


User currently offlineOceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10093 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Might Airbus pull off a coup and sell a mix of A350s and A380s to UA?

Then it would be a really big coup for Airbus.  cloudnine 


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10085 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Might Airbus pull off a coup and sell a mix of A350s and A380s to UA? I'm not here to say it's likely but I wouldn't rule it out.

My god, to do that on Boeings doorstep in Chicago, would be a major coup! Cannot see it myself, UA may play Airbus and Boeing off against each other but IMHO when it comes to long haul Boeing will get the thumbs up with the 787 and I hope the 747-8i at some stage too.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10040 times:

I think airlines like UA needs raw capasity premium space for their Asian flights. Replacing it with smaller types on their hard fought slots in Asia isn't a realistic option..

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9957 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
In that case, might the A350-1000 be a replacement for their 744s, just as several airlines are using the 773ER to replace 744s?

UA could replace most of their 747-400s with A350s (operating at higher frequencies and with some fragmentation) but UA have seven routes (to NRT, PEK, and PVG) for which a VLA would be better suited due to severe slot constraints.


User currently offlineUA772IAD From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 1741 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9893 times:

I see UA ordering the 748i (and the 787). As others have mentioned, its just out of good diplomacy with both being Chicago businesses. Furthermore, UA and Boeing have a long history of working together, and I would say UA is a pretty loyal Boeing customer. Hell, UA came out of Boeing. And while UA's 744s are deployed only to the "heaviest" highest yielding destinations (or those with slot restrictions) that operate on full loads consistently (FRA, HKG, NRT, PEK, PVG, SYD), I think the A380 is too big. I see UAs widebody fleet continuing to be all Boeing. Narrowbody orders are a wild card at this point

User currently offlineCtang From Australia, joined Jul 2001, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9867 times:

I tend to disagree. Airbus 380 is not too big for them. All of UA's competitors fly the A380 such as SQ and QF. So far only one airline (LH) has ordered the new 748.

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7007 posts, RR: 63
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9834 times:

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 7):
its just out of good diplomacy with both being Chicago businesses.

Explain this to me. UA buys, say, A350s instead of 787s. Boeing consider that 'undiplomatic'. OK. And then?

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 7):
I would say UA is a pretty loyal Boeing customer.

Not so loyal that they have bought a single 737NG.

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 7):
... while UA's 744s are deployed only to the "heaviest" highest yielding destinations ... operate on full loads consistently ... the A380 is too big.

You'll need to explain this one too. Sounds like a clear argument in favour of the A380 to me.  Wink


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9731 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
Not so loyal that they have bought a single 737NG.

Boeing for longhaul and Airbus for shorthaul, and I hope that UA keep it that way. IIRC the NG's were not available when UA needed to make a commitment to their shorthaul fleet all those years back. Why order and older aircraft that has been around for years i.e 737-300 when you have more up to date technology in the 320. UA will wait for the next generation of narrowbodies before it makes a large order on that front again.


User currently offlineOceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9697 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 7):I would say UA is a pretty loyal Boeing customer.
Not so loyal that they have bought a single 737NG.

Wasn't the order for the Airbuses placed when tall Wolf (and his love for Paris) was at the helm ? IIRC CDG was UA first European destination back in 1990 or 1991... Any link between the two things ?

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 10):
IIRC the NG's were not available when UA needed to make a commitment to their shorthaul fleet all those years back.

The first UA A320 arrived in November 1993, while the first 737-700 was delivered to WN four years later.


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9547 times:

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 11):
The first UA A320 arrived in November 1993, while the first 737-700 was delivered to WN four years later.

i rest my case.


User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2469 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 9463 times:

Dispite the engine differences in the fleet, don't be surprised to hear about possible UA 777-300ERs. Seems to be the "trend" right now.


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7007 posts, RR: 63
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 9428 times:

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 11):

The first UA A320 arrived in November 1993, while the first 737-700 was delivered to WN four years later.



Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 12):
i rest my case.

All perfectly true but the fact remains that UA was a major 737 operator that has migrated to Airbus in a big way while AA, DL and CO have bought hundreds of 737NGs. The concept of "loyalty" (as expressed in post #7) seems a touch inappropriate. Neither CO nor DL operate any Airbuses at all these days while AA is rumoured to have a troubled relationship with Toulouse after the AA A300 crash.

So, my point in a nutshell: which of the following is more likely to buy Airbus widebodies in the next couple of years - AA, CO, DL or UA?  Wink


User currently offlinePHLwok From United States of America, joined May 2007, 527 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 9424 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I think airlines like UA needs raw capasity premium space for their Asian flights. Replacing it with smaller types on their hard fought slots in Asia isn't a realistic option..

While I very much doubt that UA would replace 744s with 787s, remember the premium cabin revamps starting this fall across the whole widebody fleet will substantially reduce the number of business seats, mainly due to the increased size they take.

UA appears to be doing well on its transpac routes, but going from a 744 to a 380 might be too much, particularly with increasing competition on many of these routes. Either way, they're probably several years away from a 744 replacement and thus will have time to sit back and watch how the newer aircraft types (380, 748, 350, 787, etc) do.

I don't think the fact that Boeing recently moved corporate HQ to Chicago is relevant. UA has used Boeing for widebodies for a good while now, basically post-DC-10, and Boeing would compete very hard for the next widebody order from them regardless.


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 9230 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Many people here assume that UA will be a natural customer for the 787.

That assumption does not make any sense. UA is less dependent on the 767 than just about any other U.S.A. international carrier and the 787 is supposed to be a 767 replacement. Sure the projected 787-10 would have capacity similar to the 772 but with less comfortable, narrower seats. UA's general preference has been to mostly fly to international destinations that can support at least a 772. They will be a big customer for whatever eventually replaces the 777.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I think airlines like UA needs raw capasity premium space for their Asian flights.

Actually they are shrinking premium space on the 744s and stuffing in more coach seats, making the 744s Trans-Pacific cattle cars. They are maximizing seats on their busiest restricted routes such as SYD and China with most of the rest providing extra capacity to LHR, FRA and NRT.


User currently offlineUA76Heavy From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8671 times:

On a daily basis, the A380 would be too large for UA's operations. Remember, UA has 6 US gateway cities (SFO, LAX, SEA, ORD, IAD, HNL) for its Pacific routes and it would difficult to fill an A380 when traffic can be directed through other cities. In contrast, SQ has a single gateway city (SIN) and QF two (SYD, MEL).

My bet is on the 773ER due to its economics or the 748i because its cargo capacity.


User currently offlineKdeg00 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8647 times:

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 7):
its just out of good diplomacy with both being Chicago businesses.

I can't imagine any business the size of UA or Boeing worrying about the "diplomacy" of capital purchases totaling hundreds of millions of dollars. And it's not like Boeing and UA grew up playing stickball in a Chicago suburb together. Boeing is a recent arrival in Chicago from Seattle.

The biggest factor I see in any US headquartered company is the growing inequity between the dollar and the euro. At this point ($1.40+ to the euro) I don't see how Airbus has any chance to sell large orders to UA.


User currently offlineDl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 8218 times:

i doubt it will be anything smaller than the 748, they need the capacity on asian routes. The A380 seems a little too bihlg for them on all 744 routes, so mayne a very small A380 order and the rest 748. Maybe the A350 for a 777 replacement but definately not a 744 replacement

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 8153 times:

Quoting Dl767captain (Reply 19):
i doubt it will be anything smaller than the 748, they need the capacity on asian routes. The A380 seems a little too bihlg for them on all 744 routes, so mayne a very small A380 order and the rest 748. Maybe the A350 for a 777 replacement but definately not a 744 replacement

UA have seven routes which require a VLA. There are several more routes where a VLA could be used. They need a fleet of twelve aircraft to fly those seven routes. There is no way that UA would split an order for twelve to twenty VLAs between A and B. One or the other will win it.


User currently offlineSkyyMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 7749 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
In a sense, they are but they must be one of the best medium-term bets Airbus have for widebody sales in the USA.

As someone stated, for Chicago based UA to not buy Chicago based Boeings would be a real slap in the face. UA was the launch customer for the 772 and aside from the 320 family, has been a solid Boeing customer. The question, I think is, is the 380 too big for their plans? I can see 773's replacing the 744's, and whichever model of 787. Anything bigger I'd have to believe they'd take the 748. They seem to be like many carriers and are looking at frequency over capacity, so whichever VLA they take, I would expect to see it only on routes between the various Star hubs. Besides, last I heard ORD still isn't planning to do any major revamping to accommodate the Whalebus in any numbers, so look for them to stay with B.


User currently offlinePHLwok From United States of America, joined May 2007, 527 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 7327 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):
UA have seven routes which require a VLA. There are several more routes where a VLA could be used. They need a fleet of twelve aircraft to fly those seven routes.

Out of curiosity, which do you think these are? I'd guess routes like LAX-SYD, SFO-NRT, SFO/ORD-HKG, IAD/ORD-FRA might handle one, but I struggle to think of others. A few years back I would have said LHR, but UA isn't as big there anymore.

If UA were to actually get a VLA, I'd expect them on routes where they have little to no competition, competition is restricted by treaties (e.g. Australia), frequencies are slot restricted and 744s are already used, or are high traffic Star Alliance hubs (hence FRA being on my list), but outside of the Australian and to some extent the China routes, there aren't a lot of these, and in the case of the Chinese routes more capacity from competitors old and new is imminent in the next few years.


User currently offline747fan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1192 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 7162 times:

I really wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if they come out with a Boeing 777-300ER order, as it seems to be the trend right now (AF replacing 744's w/ 77W, as well as SQ, Cathay Pacific, ANA, I think JAL, EVA, and KLM). At the same time, however, I can also see them ordering the 748 (or both 773 and 748, but unlikely). The only issue w/ these two planes for UA is that neither is offered w/ PW engines; the A380 offers PW engines (well sort of - EA is both PW and GE).

User currently offlineFlyIGuy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 7140 times:

I can see UA picking up used 744's from Qantas before buying new aircraft just as they did with some of the Qantas 100's back in the day....


The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
25 DC8FanJet : United got into the narrow body A319/320's when the 737NG weren't an option, and have been mostly satisfied. There are many reasons that the Airbus na
26 DeltaL1011man : the 320 came out before the NGs did and they needed new planes then i would bet that the go with the 737RS over whatever Airbus offers as long a they
27 Post contains links and images Gh123 : They did pass a couple onto the Dubai Air Wing over the last couple of years: ex N108UA and N109UA which were both manufactured in 1998. View Large Vi
28 Chgoflyer : I thought they were going to buy concordes.. this is a pretty silly post.
29 PM : I think you're dead right. I live (sometimes) in Zurich and I see UA 767s there every day. Sooner or later I expect they will become UA 787s. But I a
30 Buddys747 : 748's and 787's. I very much doubt you'll see any Airbus widebody's in the future, especially a mix of both,this is a US airline, fleet commonality se
31 CX747 : One of the major reasons that United purchased the A32X family in the early 90s was Boeing's own hubris. United was looking to expand their narrowbody
32 Birdbrainz : That was the rumor. That's the first thing my dad said while he was flying for UA and this happened. But like it was said before, the 320 was beating
33 Post contains images UA772IAD : Perhaps "diplomatic" wasn't the best choice of word . However, it isn't good business- being that both companies are local, and both have a rich 75+
34 Platinumfoota : UA is not too happy with the way their Airbuses are preforming. Too many glitches and everytime that an Airbus has a problem the flight ends up cancel
35 TrijetsRMissed : Whatever UA's intentions, I still think they are some years away from making an order. Due to finances, and the fact that their longhaul fleet is midd
36 Post contains images XaraB : It is interesting to note that certain users around here always claim that the different US airlines are unhappy with their Airbuses (with the possib
37 Zvezda : I share your skepticism. I have not noticed a difference in dispatch reliability between UA's 737s and A320s. I can say that UA's A320s are generally
38 Viscount724 : QF never operated the 747-100. Their first 747s were -200s. UA acquired 7 -200s from QF in 1991. I think they were the only ex-QF 747s operated by UA
39 Zvezda : Weren't UA's 747SPs ex-QF?
40 TrijetsRMissed : Ex-Pan Am. They were included in the deal for the Pacific routes with the Tristar 500's. QF operated four 741's for a very brief time during the late
41 Warreng24 : UA is currently DOWNSIZING their premium cabins on all their widebody 3-class aircraft.
42 Scorpy : As SQ introduces its 380's and retires more of their 744, UA may be interested in picking them up - they also run the PW4056. If they win LAX-PVG and
43 Post contains images FlyAAS80 : First of all I agree that diplomacy and "good business" will have little to do with United's willingness to purchase the 748I and 787 over Airbus's pr
44 Post contains links and images OceansWorld : Indeed, QF has leased three B747-100s. EI-BED - 747-130 - 19748 / 44 - 11/1987-02/1988 VH-EEI/EI-CAI - 747-123 - 20108 / 87 - 1988-1989 - and sub-lst
45 DC8FanJet : The A320/319 fleet in general is out performing the 737's at United, but then, it should. The 737's are getting a bit old. Initially, there were issue
46 Stapleton : There are many reasons that no US passenger airline has ordered the A380 but one of the main reasons is that it puts all your eggs in one basket. Many
47 AF022 : Maybe a little off topic, but will there be any commonality between the B787 and the B747-8?
48 Penguinflies : Actually, I think it was stickball closer to Seattle. "Oct. 30, 1928 Boeing Airplane - Transport Corp. (BATC) is incorporated in Delaware and acquire
49 Viscount724 : I should have said "ordered", not "operated".
50 Sh0rtybr0wn : I think the best thing for UA would be to keep flying their old widebodies for a while and get into a better financial situation. Then they should buy
51 PHLwok : Agreed. I'm not sure I get the math here. UA currently has 30 744s, 35 or so 763ERs (some domestic), and 52 772s (a mix of A and ER models, with arou
52 Zvezda : This is why I've never expected NW to order new VLAs. On the other hand, UA have only two or three NRT slots used for intra-Asia flights. SIN, BKK, H
53 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Virgin Australia (or whatever the name will be) will commence TPAC flights next year with new B773ER's.. .....add QF running the Big Beast on said ro
54 Sh0rtybr0wn : Yes 800, 900 , and 1000. The perfect 767 replacement is 787-8 but i think fleet commonality would outweigh the more perfect size match on the lower e
55 Zvezda : There are 777 slots available for 2010 delivery.
56 HPAEAA : True, but in the short term these routes remain flight restricted, however the longer term, and given the direction of open skies and the expansion o
57 Socalfive : WHO CARES? I mean, WHO the HELL CARES??? They're going to buy the best equipment for their needs not to make someone in their same damned zip code ha
58 Jacobin777 : ....how so? The first B773ER was delivered just a few years ago to AF and many carriers aren't going to be getting their B773ER's for the next 2-3 ye
59 UA772IAD : HKG has been discontinued to allocate the 744/777 elsewhere. There is also ICN, and TPE service.
60 UA772IAD : So what? So has AA, DL, CO... therefore, WN might be your only "loyal" Boeing customer in the US. Reading the history that you provided (thanks!) you
61 N77014 : Again, you fail to understand that the US is too large for UA to concentrate Asia flying ex one hub, like SFO. Premium passengers are seeking a nonst
62 DL767captain : By the time the A350 is available, and the 748s and A380s could be delivered to UA i think restrictions will have gone down. DL is proving to be a fa
63 FlyDreamliner : Less comfortable? Perhaps in high density 9 abreast, but in 8 abreast, like other American carriers NW and CO are planning to use, it's more comforta
64 UA772IAD : While I agree with your general premise, NRT has certainly NOT lost any appeal. Rather, UA is adding additional flights, in addition to it's NRT Intr
65 Zvezda : Once UA have A350s or 787s, they will be serving airports like BKK and SIN nonstop and adding to nonstops to HKG, TPE, and ICN rather than serving th
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
What Is UA's Current 744 Fleet? posted Sat Nov 22 2003 06:02:01 by Alexinwa
Another EX-UA 744 For Iran Air! posted Sun Aug 26 2007 18:50:53 by Shahram16216
EX-UA 744 For Iran Air posted Wed Jul 25 2007 17:47:21 by Amax1977
UA 744 Domestic Routes '07 posted Sun Mar 18 2007 20:48:19 by Mav75
UA Widebody Fleet Numbers posted Fri Mar 16 2007 03:28:33 by UniTED
UA 744 Over AMS Yesterday (31st Jan) posted Thu Feb 1 2007 14:30:55 by Speedmarque
3 Ex UA 744's On UK Register posted Tue Oct 3 2006 11:20:46 by Steady Eddie
UA 744 At MSP 9/22 posted Sat Sep 23 2006 06:56:26 by N808NW
NZ To Reduce 744 Fleet By 1 Frame posted Tue Sep 5 2006 06:02:28 by NZ1
NZ To Increase Premium Economy On 744 Fleet posted Fri Jun 16 2006 03:36:45 by NZ1