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Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions  
User currently offlineCarls From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 522 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 14132 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...out-a350-xwb-design-revisions.html


Interesting information, specially this part:

Flight International has learnt that the revelations were made to a gathering of around 100 representatives from existing XWB customers as well as potential clients - the latter including Air France, American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and Lufthansa. The airframer held a two-day XWB seminar in Bordeaux in early September.


American Airlines and Delta Airlines this is getting much more interesting than I thought because Lufthansa and Air France isn't a surprise, but AA and DL are really a surprise to me.

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBadge From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13972 times:

I for one will be highly surprised if they got for the A350 but they wouldn't be doing their jobs if they didn't at least look at the competing design. An order of 125 planes at $20 billion is a significant purchase no doubt and with Boeing's stake in Delta I find it hard to believe they can get a better deal on the A350.

User currently offlineCarls From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13905 times:

Quoting Badge (Reply 1):

What stake percentage does Boeing has on DL?


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13676 times:

Quoting Carls (Thread starter):
American Airlines and Delta Airlines this is getting much more interesting than I thought because Lufthansa and Air France isn't a surprise, but AA and DL are really a surprise to me.

A free trip to Europe, to wine and dine on superb food and drink, get away from the spouse and kids for a bit - this comes as a surprise to you?  Wink


User currently offlineClipper136 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 316 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 13555 times:

Quoting Carls (Thread starter):
but AA and DL are really a surprise to me

Both have operated widebody Airbus in the past (AA still has a large fleet), why would they not at least consider operating them again.


User currently offlineCarls From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 13549 times:

Quoting Khobar (Reply 3):

Not really, I did not think about it. You are right......

Seriously, if they are there should be because they have showed some interest in the A350. Isn't a sight but it is something that make me thing about these airlines and Airbus relationship. I believe Airbus is trying hard to get AA or DL on board of the A350XWB, and both are good candidates. It's just my opinion.

[Edited 2007-09-25 17:39:37]

User currently offlineCarls From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 13527 times:

Quoting Clipper136 (Reply 4):
Both have operated widebody Airbus in the past (AA still has a large fleet), why would they not at least consider operating them again.

Airbus bashers in A.Net have been saying that the final day will come first before AA or DL order any Airbus.
That is why I got surprised.


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 13273 times:

DL and AA were probably there so they know what to expect from the boeing competition and tell boeing what they want the 777 replacement to do

User currently offlineCygnusChicago From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 12904 times:

Quoting Carls (Reply 6):
Airbus bashers in A.Net have been saying that the final day will come first before AA or DL order any Airbus.

I'm no Airbus basher, but it ain't going to happen. It's more likely that AA will manage to have three consecutive days of 100% on-time ops out of ORD before they order Airbus



If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 12831 times:

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 8):
I'm no Airbus basher, but it ain't going to happen. It's more likely that AA will manage to have three consecutive days of 100% on-time ops out of ORD before they order Airbus

Granted the relationship went sour after the New York crash but relationships can improve again. If Airbus is giving them a good deal and the aircraft fits their requirement then I don´t see a reason why AA would not order Airbus again same goes for Delta if they see the A350 as a good 767/777 replacement they would order it.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineCygnusChicago From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 12643 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 9):
Granted the relationship went sour after the New York crash but relationships can improve again

The relationship went sour long before the NYC crash. It was all downhill as soon as Boeing and AA came to that 20 year exclusivity deal. Now, we all know the EU made them tear it up, but we also all know that it is still in place as a gentlemen's agreement. Why would AA walk away from the fantastic pricing they get with that deal?



If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2011 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 12626 times:

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 10):
Why would AA walk away from the fantastic pricing they get with that deal?

For even more fantastc pricing on offer from Airbus??? An AA order would be a real feather in the cap for Airbus...



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 12626 times:

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 10):
Why would AA walk away from the fantastic pricing they get with that deal?

If they get an even better deal or an aircraft that might suit their needs better - I am not saying that the A350 will do so but hypothetically.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30537 posts, RR: 84
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 12528 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

With AA and DL maxing out at the 777-200ER right now - and likely only facing more competition, not less, in the future - the 787 family's size is likely a better fit for them then the A350's, which is why many of us are more confident in a Boeing order then an Airbus one.

User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 12473 times:

These companies are somewhat obligated to atleast review projects and ideas as it MAY be beneficial to them. Weather they follow through or not is two different things. Remember when Delta "reviewed" US's offer? They made this same statement. I still dont see DL making an Airbus purchase. AA is a different story (still unlikely).


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 12327 times:

Quoting Carls (Reply 6):
Airbus bashers in A.Net have been saying that the final day will come first before AA or DL order any Airbus.

Even if it was true, AA and DL would be remiss not to be informed about Airbus offerings. They may prefer Boeing, but they prefer good prices even more. wink 



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 12005 times:

Quoting Clipper136 (Reply 4):
Both have operated widebody Airbus in the past (AA still has a large fleet), why would they not at least consider operating them again.

DL was fairly quick to toss the A310's they got from PanAm, and didn't appear to like them much. AA followed up its lease of the A300s by buying 2-3 times as many competing 767s? Especially after there crash, there isn't much love between AA and Airbus... AA moved away from GE engines after Sioux City... they have a history of holding a grudge.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 11):
For even more fantastc pricing on offer from Airbus??? An AA order would be a real feather in the cap for Airbus...

Do businesses operate to put feathers in their caps by offering ridiculously low prices, or do they operate to make money?

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 15):

Even if it was true, AA and DL would be remiss not to be informed about Airbus offerings. They may prefer Boeing, but they prefer good prices even more. wink

You're right. They're going to buy Boeing, but they can't very well negotiate without appearing interested in the competitor's product. It's just negotiation. I won't buy a GM car, but I still go and test-drive them when I'm car shopping. Want to know what is out there and have more leverage to negotiate. Every airline looks at every relevant aircraft. It just makes sense. NW is said to have looked at Sukhoi Superjet, think they are going to buy it?



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30537 posts, RR: 84
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11916 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
AA followed up its lease of the A300s by buying 2-3 times as many competing 767s?

The A300s serve a specific niche in AA's network - high-density (pax and cargo) short-haul services. Boeing doesn't offer a comparable model - the 767 carries less folks and (especially) payload and the 777 is far too large.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
AA moved away from GE engines after Sioux City... they have a history of holding a grudge.

UA lost a GE-powered bird at Sioux City, not AA.

[Edited 2007-09-25 23:36:39]

User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9603 posts, RR: 69
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11654 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

What does this thread have to with Ameicans relationship with Airbus?

The title says it is about the A350.

Will the switch to CF frames increase the cost?


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 960 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11567 times:

Quoting Carls (Reply 2):
What stake percentage does Boeing has on DL?

Boeing does not have a stake in DL. They own no DL shares. Boeing is a creditor to DL, that is very different.

Quoting Carls (Reply 5):
I believe Airbus is trying hard to get AA or DL on board of the A350XWB, and both are good candidates.

They're really not, and it's naive to think they are. The A350 isn't a 767 replacement at all.


User currently offlineCarls From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11348 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
You're right. They're going to buy Boeing, but they can't very well negotiate without appearing interested in the competitor's product. It's just negotiation.

This is contradictory, so AA and DL has a "Gentleman Agreement" with Boeing, which make all Boeing fans sure they will order Boeing, but they are going to visit Airbus just to see what they can get from other supplier, even when they are more than sure they will order Boeing. It's only my self or someone else can see a contradiction here.


User currently offlineCarls From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11295 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 19):
The A350 isn't a 767 replacement at all.

I think you miss the point, A350 isn't a &67 replacement, I agree with you. But A350 it is an excellent replacement for their 777.
 Wink


User currently offlineXtoler From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11149 times:

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 8):
I'm no Airbus basher, but it ain't going to happen. It's more likely that AA will manage to have three consecutive days of 100% on-time ops out of ORD before they order Airbus

They also say a cold day in hell too... and it's cold a lot at ORD!

Seriously, I think we may be past the days of customer loyalty, despite quality. A lot of it really should be up to the flight crews, they are the ones flying the equipment. I did like the on-line presentation of the 787 rollout and the customer survey at the end.



EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1548 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11053 times:

It never hurts to go kick the tires and review the brochure listing all the cool amenities. Who knows, it could lead to a sale -- that's why dealers have lots. I'm sure AA and DL are doing the airline version of this. Its the american way!

User currently offlineBoysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11033 times:

OK, lets consider the economics. Look at the strength of the US Dollar vs the €uro at the minute. It makes any Airbus product expensive when it's price is translated into US Dollars. I'm no economist but I don't see the situation changing much soon. Remember at the €uro's launch 1 US dollar was worth more than 1 €uro. Now 1 €uro is worth 1.4 US dollars. This will work in Boeings favour.

25 Clipper136 : Ok..not this Airlines.net myth again. DL liked the A310 enough to order more. After operating them for a while they made an economic choice to standa
26 DfwRevolution : And replacement of young 777 isn't a priority at DL or AA whatsoever. Replacement of the 767 is a priority now and the
27 Post contains images Atmx2000 : Both AA's and DL's pricing depends on best pricing offered to any Boeing customer AFAIK. Pushing the prices down benefits them. Of course maybe AA and
28 Post contains images PM : It's questionable to what extent they were direct competitors. Rubbish. They ordered them on their MD11s (after Sioux City) and continued to buy them
29 CygnusChicago : Unlikely. The verbal exclusivity agreement as I understand it offers AA the lowest negotiated price of that year on all planes purchased in the refer
30 Post contains links Scbriml : No, it wasn't torn up. The deal is still in place, but Boeing agreed not to enforce the exclusivity clause. So, in effect, AA, CO & DL can still bene
31 Post contains images Scbriml : As publicly held companies, they would be failing in their fiduciary duties and responsibilities to shareholders if they completely ignored Airbus an
32 Art : AA would be pretty dumb if they did not check what was available from non-Boeing supplier(s). That's the only way I can think of to ascertain the val
33 Post contains images Keesje : people keep forgetting this.. For the rest I would read to much in this. AA and DL fleet mngt boys are invited by Leahy to join an exclusive event wh
34 Burkhard : In this phase, it is usual that airlines send some people to the manufacturers to ensure their interests to be taken into account - if they will buy o
35 Post contains images Basefly : Sure AA and DL is probably going to buy Boeing, But rest assure, that is ONLY because they get the better pricing from Boeing and not because some man
36 Carls : Airbus has said that they had the A350 slot sold until 2016, so I don't see why AA and DL could not consider this option as a replacement for their 7
37 Carls : But my point is, why I will look whatever Airbus has if I am not going to buy it. Some at A.Net have said that they will lose all the benefits on 737
38 Stitch : And yet, folks only seem to agree with this when it comes to replacing US carrier 767s... The A350 has been offered by many as a logical choice to re
39 Tavong : Maybe cause this is a big bussiness, and no matter if they will buy or not, it´s always a wise decision to keep friendly relations with all the poss
40 Columba : The A350-800 will replace the A330-200 which is the aircraft that has replaced the 767 with many airlines. It is maybe a little larger but a replacem
41 PM : What evidence do you have for this? Airbus may well be offering the A350 to BA but what makes you think they are promoting it as a 767 replacement? I
42 Flighty : The relationship between 767 and A350 is far from clear. For example among US carriers, it's far from obvious that the A350 would be proper for US Ai
43 Columba : Who knows maybe they were not mentioned in the article. Last time they have been there, too.
44 Post contains images Stitch : Just peruse any of the threads on BA's upcoming order. Well BA has 767s they need to replace in their current RFP to both suppliers. Now, it is certa
45 Carls : You are absolutely right. I did not realized that until you pointed out. But they could be there and as it was already mentioned they could be not me
46 Scbriml : Justly so since Airbus's response to any RFP to replace 763s will be the A358. Yes, it's bigger than a 763, but then so is the 788. The fact of the m
47 Trex8 : maybe they will hold it about as long as they did with MDC after the ORD DC10 till they ordered all those MD80s!
48 KochamLOT : I dont think so. The 787 is not that much bigger than that of a 763 or 764. Maybe a larger wingspan but the capacity, at least the 787-8 will be almo
49 AirbusA6 : Well the 788 is slightly longer than the 763, and can take 8 or 9 abreast in Y as opposed to 7 in the 763, so that sounds like a significantly larger
50 BlueSky1976 : Hmmm let's take a look at one example you'll love - LO: 767-300ER config: 243, 2-class 787-8 config: 278, 2-class 787-9 config: 317, 2-class. The onl
51 Post contains links KochamLOT : http://www.boeing.com/commercial/787family/787-8prod.html says 210-250 pax. It does not give much detail in classes, but that is what Ive been going o
52 Post contains images Scbriml : The -8 is larger than a 764. Compare the cabin area. The wingspan puts it in the same ICAO gate category as the A350. The A350-800 is almost identica
53 Post contains images PM : I ask for "evidence" and you cite A.Net threads?! What have we come to?
54 Post contains images RedFlyer : Why didn't they standardize their fleet on the A310 if they liked them enough to order more? It wasn't the aircraft that caused the rift. It was the
55 Post contains links Khobar : If the exclusivity clause is null and void as per Boeing's agreement, then you are nit-picking to argue that it wasn't "torn up". The airlines in que
56 Post contains images Stitch : I was not trying to be flippant, sir, but it has been discussed again and again and again, so I was just trying to save myself some effort of searchi
57 Scbriml : Far from it. There are significant other clauses regarding pricing that are still significant for AA, CO & DL. The contracts are still in place, but
58 Post contains links Hloutweg : Check out the new cabin pictures released by Airbus today! Well this is more than that as it is a mockup. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ils-m
59 RIX : Why? Do you know what 78A/B will look like?
60 Post contains images Stitch : Looks like a 787 with smaller windows. And I thought the 787 mock-up seat's were bogus...
61 Khobar : Can you post a link to the purchase agreement? Thanks.
62 Post contains images Brendows : Why do they have to make each mockup of the A350(XWB) look like a dental office when it comes to the colors and materials?
63 Clipper136 : Duh....let me see... I have 120 767s and 16 A310s and I want to save money and standardize my fleet. Which one shall I choose? Duh!
64 Hloutweg : Yeah, maybe those aren't the best colours. But some people like it. Just look at Korean Air's new product. Quite similar in color palette. I like the
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