Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
US Carriers Without Service To S.America  
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3110 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 3365 times:

There are 2 major US carriers at this time that do not serve mainland S.America,NW and US. Do any of these airlines have any plans to start service?

For NW:
NW could probably fill a 747-400 for DTW-Sau Paulo(connecting to Rio), possibly to Lima. All other US carriers do fine in S. America.(on most routes)

US could make the same routes work, but don't have sufficient aircraft at the time.
At this time US could make GRU work with PHL-GRU @ 4734 Mi and CLT-GRU is 4623 miles. The range for the Airbus 330-300 is 5,650 mi.

US could also easily do Lima. CLT/PHL-LIM is about 3300 miles.


E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineXtoler From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 20 hours ago) and read 3344 times:

I'm not sure if we have enough of us US citizens who would want to go down there. I think it would be cool, but the way we're thought of down in that neck of the woods is not exactly friendly.


EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3110 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 20 hours ago) and read 3337 times:

are u kidin? im savin up to go to rio on DL!


E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3394 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 20 hours ago) and read 3315 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
For NW:
NW could probably fill a 747-400 for DTW-Sau Paulo(connecting to Rio), possibly to Lima. All other US carriers do fine in S. America.(on most routes)

A 747-400, maybe not at first (perhaps with connections on to Asia; they have an excellent Asian network), but they could certainly do well in that market with an A330.

Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
US could also easily do Lima. CLT/PHL-LIM is about 3300 miles.

With a 757, 767 or an A330? I think an A330 may be a little overkill, especially considering how AA, CO, DL, and LA pretty much have the LIM-North America market snatched up already.

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 1):
I'm not sure if we have enough of us US citizens who would want to go down there. I think it would be cool, but the way we're thought of down in that neck of the woods is not exactly friendly.

Although the type of person who tends to go to South America tends not to be the stereotypical, passport-free American.  Silly


User currently offlineAlexPorter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 20 hours ago) and read 3302 times:

I don't think NW will do anything, but will instead rely on CO. If this was pre-alliance days and NW really wanted to start something, it would probably start on the A332 or the 787 when they get those... or maybe a 757 MEM-Columbia or Ecuador.

On a side note, does Aruba count as South America? It is REALLY close to Venezuela. I know most of the Caribbean is considered North America, but Aruba isn't by any of the other islands. Same goes for Trinidad & Tobago. US Airways does serve Aruba, and I think NW is more likely to start flying there before anywhere else in South America, especially without any SkyTeam hubs in South America.


User currently offlineBSBIsland From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 379 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 19 hours ago) and read 3245 times:

At least in the case of Brazil, as the bilateral restricts, there is no more frequencies available for US airlines to operate to Brazil.

User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 3182 times:

I don't think NW has much interest in South America, specially as a Skyteam member. They'll let DL and CO deal with that. US could do something out of PHL, don't know why they haven't.

To add to your question, why are CO and UA absent from Santiago, Chile??? UA used to fly there, maybe it didn't work, I don't know, but what about Continental???


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33053 posts, RR: 71
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 3169 times:

Quoting Juventus (Reply 6):
To add to your question, why are CO and UA absent from Santiago, Chile??? UA used to fly there, maybe it didn't work, I don't know, but what about Continental???

It's a small market, for whatever reason. Even Delta and AA have to rely largely on cargo revenues most of the year. It wasn't until this year that LAN Chile flew LAX/JFK-SCL non-stop, and that is only because the Peruvian government revoked some of their Peru-USA fifth freedom rights.



a.
User currently offlineAlexPorter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 3051 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Even Delta and AA have to rely largely on cargo revenues most of the year.

Of course, AA has the benefit of LAN being a oneworld partner, but I certainly don't doubt you. The fact that AA needs cargo revs on that route part of the year despite connecting two oneworld hubs may explain why most other airlines don't serve SCL at all.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33053 posts, RR: 71
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 3033 times:

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 8):

Of course, AA has the benefit of LAN being a oneworld partner, but I certainly don't doubt you. The fact that AA needs cargo revs on that route part of the year despite connecting two oneworld hubs may explain why most other airlines don't serve SCL at all.

I should have made more clear that it is the Dallas flight that relies heavily on cargo revenues. Miami flights perform well in both departments, with AA operating extra frequencies during the Chilean summer.



a.
User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 10 hours ago) and read 2952 times:

In the case of Brazil, only four USA airlines are allowed to fly here according to the current bilateral agreement. Even if that wasn't the case, NWA & US Airways would be shooting their own feet if they launched such service. The market is much well covered with AA, UA, CO & DL, plus JJ & RG (next year).

So as you can see, the chances of both airlines coming to Brazil are close to none!!!


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9903 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 10 hours ago) and read 2944 times:

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 4):
On a side note, does Aruba count as South America? It is REALLY close to Venezuela. I know most of the Caribbean is considered North America, but Aruba isn't by any of the other islands. Same goes for Trinidad & Tobago.

Aruba is part of the Caribbean and not South America. The same goes for all other islands in the Caribbean, which is not North America. Since when is the Caribbean considered North America?

A388


User currently offlineExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 2838 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
There are 2 major US carriers at this time that do not serve mainland S.America,NW and US. Do any of these airlines have any plans to start service?

Not sure I'd be seeing the point - most of the destinations are already covered by their alliance partners (SkyTeam and Star, respectively), so why bother?

Quoting A388 (Reply 11):
Since when is the Caribbean considered North America?

I'd guess it's because most of the Caribbean is at latitudes that are considered "North American"? And that much of it is English or French speaking - or in the case of Puerto Rico is politically part of the United States - and thus culturally more "north" than "south"? Not a perfect explanation, to be sure - Mexico is Spanish-speaking, yet clearly part of North America, and many of the islands are closer to South America than North America.

While on a high level of geography I guess you have to make an arbitrary assignment of islands to one of the six continents and it gets a little subjective (where do you draw the line between Australia and Asia, for example?), for travelling purposes I've always thought of the Caribbean as...well, the Caribbean, a separate entity.

A lot of subjectivity here - a lot of people consider Belize Caribbean, not Central America, because culturally it has more in common with the Commonwealth parts of the Caribbean than it does with its Spanish-speaking neighbours.


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2933 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 2788 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
For NW:
NW could probably fill a 747-400 for DTW-Sau Paulo(connecting to Rio), possibly to Lima. All other US carriers do fine in S. America.(on most routes)

Is there any traffic from DTW to GRU? I can't imagine there's enough to sustain a non-stop, which would have to be daily to appeal to the higher yielding crowd, let alone a 747. Remember it would require two 747's in order to be competitive.

DTW-Lima traffic is non-exsistent. Chicago doesn't have LIM service and arguably that is a much larger Midwest-South America market than Detroit.

Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
US could make the same routes work, but don't have sufficient aircraft at the time.
At this time US could make GRU work with PHL-GRU @ 4734 Mi and CLT-GRU is 4623 miles. The range for the Airbus 330-300 is 5,650 mi.

US could also easily do Lima. CLT/PHL-LIM is about 3300 miles.

Yeah, maybe PHL/CLT-GRU, but as mentioned before, there are no slots.

USA-Lima is simply not that big of a market. Outside of South Florida and New York, and the Latin American gateways of Atlanta and Houston, Lima service probably can't be sustained. LAN offers LAX but that flight also continues to SCL, GRU etc.


User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 658 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 2763 times:

I think it's more likely that one of them buys Spirit than starts their own services from scratch.

In NW's case they'd get rid of a pesky competitor in Detroit and get a hub in Fort Lauderdale.

Spirit's fleet would be a perfect fit for either NW or US.


User currently offlineGreggarious From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 2746 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 13):
Remember it would require two 747's in order to be competitive.

Hoping to learn more about how aIrline scheduling works, I ask: why is this?

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 13):
USA-Lima is simply not that big of a market.

Agreed, and I get the impression that that is the case for most of the Continent in general. Sometime in the next decade there will be ample reason to explore increased service to and from South America, but US airlines (especially AA) have the US-South America market covered as well as they can for the time being.

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 14):
I think it's more likely that one of them buys Spirit than starts their own services from scratch.

An intriguing idea, but it would run into trouble for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I don't believe that FLL has the adequate customs/immigration facilities for much more int'l flights than it receives already. Secondly (and far more importantly), there's the huge presence of AA and MIA 20 miles to the south. That is an enormous cliff to scale.

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 4):
Columbia

Normally I'm not one to nitpick, but the correct spelling of this particular country is "Colombia", whether in English or Spanish. Just a heads-up.  Smile


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 2732 times:

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 10):
In the case of Brazil, only four USA airlines are allowed to fly here according to the current bilateral agreement.

It's not the number of airlines limited, it's the number of weekly frequencies. If, say, AA or DL were to give up 3 weekly frequencies, NW or US could come in and start service if they are being allocated the slots. But none of the carriers currently flying to Brazil will give up flights. Besides, if the bilateral was restricted by airlines and not flights, you'd see AA all over the place flying to REC, FOR, BSB and perhaps other cities from MIA, instead of focusing solely on GRU and GIG.


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2933 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 2709 times:

Quoting Greggarious (Reply 15):
Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 13):
Remember it would require two 747's in order to be competitive.

Hoping to learn more about how aIrline scheduling works, I ask: why is this?

The higher yielding crowd demands red eye non-stops from the USA to deep South America (GRU, EZE, GIG, etc). Airlines leave the USA at night arrive early morning in South America. The plane sits around all day until it comes back at night arriving in the USA early morning. As inefficient as this sounds, the yields justify this type of operation. If NW were to ever launch such a route - and assuming there was traffic to support it - they would have to dedicate two aircraft.

There are some exceptions to this rule mostly from from MIA (and ATL too?) where the traffic can warrant daylight operations..


User currently offlineFLY2LIM From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1185 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 2685 times:

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 1):
I'm not sure if we have enough of us US citizens who would want to go down there. I think it would be cool, but the way we're thought of down in that neck of the woods is not exactly friendly.

Not sure which South America you are talking about. Where I come from, US citizens (and their money) are more than welcome.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 3):
With a 757, 767 or an A330? I think an A330 may be a little overkill, especially considering how AA, CO, DL, and LA pretty much have the LIM-North America market snatched up already.

Don't forget Spirit and Taca.

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 4):
On a side note, does Aruba count as South America? It is REALLY close to Venezuela. I know most of the Caribbean is considered North America, but Aruba isn't by any of the other islands. Same goes for Trinidad & Tobago. US Airways does serve Aruba, and I think NW is more likely to start flying there before anywhere else in South America, especially without any SkyTeam hubs in South America.

While it's already been pointed out that AUA is the Caribbean, being 19 miles off the coast of Venezuela sure helps your argument.
As for it not being by any other islands, Aruba is part of the ABC islands, the other two being Curacao and Bonaire. I believe that they are about 30 miles apart from each other.

FLY2LIM



Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 2671 times:

Quoting BSBIsland (Reply 5):
At least in the case of Brazil, as the bilateral restricts, there is no more frequencies available for US airlines to operate to Brazil.

I would think that if any U.S. airline wants to fly to FOR, REC or SSA; ANAC and INFRAERO would welcome that service.

Quoting Juventus (Reply 6):
To add to your question, why are CO and UA absent from Santiago, Chile??? UA used to fly there, maybe it didn't work, I don't know, but what about Continental???

CO currently code-shares with CM the PTY-SCL-PTY flight, so if someone wants to fly CO to SCL, that would be the only option. I don't see CO starting IAH-SCL anytime soon, CO better use its B767 on its EWR-Europe routes.

US to Southamerica? Lets face it, US hubs aren't magnets for U.S. - Southamerica traffic and US might not have enough planes with the range needed for those routes.
I Could imagine some very limited success, only if awesome connections provided, for PHL-BOG, CLT-CCS, CLT-BOG and CLT-LIM. PHX-LIM? I don''t think so. If US is into leisure routes, then 1-2 weekly red-eyes PHL-FOR (with or without REC/SSA) would be very interesting.

NW to Southamerica? NW already code-shares on CO and CM flights. Maybe due to SkyTeam cooperation, a DTW-PTY or even MEM-PTY could be in the drawing board. Other than that, I don't see NW trying DTW-GRU DTW-BOG or DTW-LIM, much less Southamerican flights out of MEM, unless it's BOG w/CO, DL P5 codeshare but MEM must have the best and cheapest connections they can offer (reckon it could be easier for NW to find an aircraft on its fleet capable of flying MEM-BOG than to other deep Southamerican destiantions).



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineAirTran717 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 746 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month ago) and read 2594 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
There are 2 major US carriers at this time that do not serve mainland S.America,NW and US.

Actually, unless I misunderstand the thread.... AirTran is also considered a major airline these days... they do not serve South America either...

717


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33053 posts, RR: 71
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month ago) and read 2585 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 19):
I would think that if any U.S. airline wants to fly to FOR, REC or SSA; ANAC and INFRAERO would welcome that service.

No, they don't. AA has been asking for access to Salvador and Recife for years to absolutely no results.



a.
User currently offlineGreggarious From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month ago) and read 2575 times:

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 20):
Actually, unless I misunderstand the thread.... AirTran is also considered a major airline these days... they do not serve South America either...

I think it's safe to assume that the OP was referring to "major US carriers with significant international (read: longhaul) operations." Note how other major US airlines such as Southwest, JetBlue, Alaska, et. al haven't made their way into the discussion, either.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 17):
Reply 17

Thanks for the help!


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month ago) and read 2573 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
It's a small market, for whatever reason.

I think it's just a question of the market being saturated. Sure, Chile is one of the richest countries in the region (while copper prices are high, anyway), but Santiago is only about 1/3 the size of Buenos Aires and Chile is only about half the size of Argentina. The market can only support so much service, and outside of NYC/So.Cal/MIA, O&D is almost nonexistent.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 19):

CO currently code-shares with CM the PTY-SCL-PTY flight, so if someone wants to fly CO to SCL, that would be the only option.

CO also codeshares on DL 146/147. Flight numbers, for the moment anyway, are CO 4242/4078.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month ago) and read 2567 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
For NW:
NW could probably fill a 747-400 for DTW-Sau Paulo(connecting to Rio), possibly to Lima. All other US carriers do fine in S. America.(on most routes)

A330 to GRU would be the obvious, not 744. They dont have 2 free ones sitting around.


25 Cubsrule : One thing to keep in mind is that NW has a mind-boggling amount of widebody capacity coming on-line in the next 5 years. While some of it will no doub
26 Viscount724 : Which is no doubt why both UA and CO eliminated their service to Chile a few years ago. There was too much capacity, and with LA and AA having antitr
27 Cubsrule : If UA hadn't abandoned MIA (which, arguably, AA forced them to do), they could have kept SCL. But there is simply not a good hub in the UA system rig
28 LipeGIG : Even with available frequencies, bilateral Brazil-US is also restricted in terms of number of players. 4 US airlines flies nowadays because in 1994, t
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
US Helicopter Expands Service To EWR With CO posted Sat Dec 9 2006 09:52:01 by Lt-AWACS
US Express New Service To PIT posted Thu Sep 8 2005 04:56:38 by KITH
US Expands Summer Service To ACK/MVY/BGR/PWM posted Tue Apr 5 2005 01:12:15 by A330323X
Any US Airports With Service To All 50 States? posted Wed Mar 30 2005 20:14:12 by Mason
3 Class Service To S. America posted Mon Oct 4 2004 18:24:30 by Aa777jr
Are US Carriers Avoiding Canada To Save Money? posted Fri Dec 5 2003 16:53:23 by DCAYOW
US Exp @ PIT Service To SBN, FWA, GRR, Etc. posted Thu Jul 17 2003 20:34:34 by B764
US Carriers Appalling Service Standards posted Fri Jun 7 2002 17:05:40 by Ryanair!!!
2 New Carriers Announce Service To COS In 2 Months posted Sat Nov 17 2001 00:23:27 by BA
US Airways Starts Service To AUS posted Thu Aug 23 2001 05:12:33 by Airbus380