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NWA's DTW-PVG Route & 787 Routes  
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6856 times:

We all know that NWA was given "tenative approval" to fly DTW-PVG.

Quote:
EAGAN, Minn. – (September 25, 2007) – Northwest Airlines (NYSE: NWA) today was notified by the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) that its bid to provide new nonstop service between Detroit and Shanghai has been tentatively approved effective March 25, 2009.

We all know that many of you don't like it that NW doesn't use their current route authority. (They only have DTW-PEK...nothing else...all other China access is 5th freedom).

But....

What is significant is not that they got the route. But the aircraft they plan on using. Not a huge capacigy 747-400 but a 787-8. This is the 2nd confirmed 787 route for NWA. The first stated by NW corporate was the restart of JFK-NRT.

Wasn't NW's plan that they would use their PEK authority as well as new PVG authority?

Currently NW flies:
744 ... DTW-NRT x2
744 ... NRT-PVG
332 ... NRT-PEK

After 2009, these routes could be:
OPTION A
744 ... DTW-NRT x2
744 ... NRT-PVG
332 ... NRT-PEK
787 ... DTW-PVG
787 ... DTW-PEK

OPTION B
744 ... DTW-NRT x2
787 ... DTW-PVG
787 ... DTW-PEK
787 ... NRT-PVG (extension from JFK)
332 ... NRT-PEK

OPTION A gives west coast connections via NRT and maintains capacity, while introducing additional non-stop capacity.

OPTION B maintains west coast conections via NRT with lower capacity, while introducting additional non-stop service and connecting service. It also allows for NWA style aircraft rotation at NRT.

1) What do you all think NW will do about aircraft usage and capacity on with the addition of the China routes?
2) Exactly how many 787s will be in their fleet by spring of 2009?
3) How will NWA juggle the NRT routes and the new non-stop routes?

Interesting to note that on US-China routes, NW will be using the smallest aircraft.

UA has a combination of 744s and 777s (mostly 744s)
DL will be using a 772
CO uses 772s
AA uses 772s
US will be using an A340 (most likely an A343)
NW will be using a 787-8

(Please no debates about NW and their route authority, it has been discussed a gazilion times. You don't like how they are using their route authority and their long standing 5th freedom rights? Fine. But I want to discuss aircraft usage on these authorities and the over all big picture.)


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3208 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6778 times:

It's my understanding that NWA does not have authority to operate "redundant" routes to China. That is, DTW-NRT-PEK, in addition to DTW-PEK. Only this newest route authority for DTW-PVG is granting them that.

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
Currently NW flies:
744 ... DTW-NRT x2
744 ... NRT-PVG
332 ... NRT-PEK

Remember that NWA also flies NRT-CAN with a 752.

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
Interesting to note that on US-China routes, NW will be using the smallest aircraft.

While it is the smallest, it will still have the lowest CASM out of all of them.

I guess the only thing anyone can agree on, is that we won't know for sure until NWA makes formal announcements, with regard to new routes. In the meantime, it is fun to speculate. Personally, I think NWA won't operate too many Asia nonstops, and the 787's will only further grow the NRT hub, as well as NGO and KIX. The 787 may allow NWA to reenter markets such as FUK, KUL, and others that were dropped as a result of 9/11 and other downsizings. Bringing back SEA-HKG with the 787 also seems to be a widespread and popular rumor.

One more point of interest, is the shear number of 787's NWA has on order.....possibly 68x of them to be delivered. This begs the question of what is NWA going to do with 68x new widebodies?? Questions like that fuel the rumors that NW intends to convert all their 744's to 744F's, to replace all of the 742F's. So, maybe the final plan for the 787 is to allow for a decrease of capacity in favor of increasing frequency on all Asian routes.

But, like I said....who knows?!? I can't wait to see though!!  

Edit: grammar

[Edited 2007-09-26 08:40:25]

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8538 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6760 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 1):

One more point of interest, is the shear number of 787's NWA has on order.....possibly 68x of them to be delivered. This begs the question of what is NWA going to do with 68x new widebodies?? Questions like that fuel the rumors that NW intends to convert all their 744's to 744F's. So, maybe the final plan for the 787 is to allow for a decrease capacity in favor of increasing frequency on all Asian routes.

NW probably has long range plans to "dominate" China similar to how UA does it today, only wider and shallower.

SEA-PVG, SEA-PEK

PDX-PVG

MSP-PVG, MSP-PEK

DTW-PVG, DTW-PEK

BOS-PVG, BOS-PEK

JFK-PVG, JFK-PEK

LAS-PEK

DTW or MSP to: CAN, Shenzhen, Suzhou, Hangzhou

Laugh if you want, but these new 787s are for India/China to USA. Plus some Japan. And that's about it. You see all those flights between Europe and the USA today? Hundreds? Yeah, thought so. Soon China will exceed Europe in business activity... lotsa flights needed. All the above citypairs will probably get served +1x by 2012.

I don't think NW will be retiring A330s. Instead they will launch new Asian flights.


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6741 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 2):
Laugh if you want, but these new 787s are for India/China to USA. Plus some Japan. And that's about it. You see all those flights between Europe and the USA today? Hundreds? Yeah, thought so. Soon China will exceed Europe in business activity... lotsa flights needed. All the above citypairs will probably get served +1x by 2012.

Bingo. NW can compete to Europe in a limited way. They will use KL to deal with Europe. NW has been serving Asia since 1947 and they are not about to give up on the region they opened up.

I think that we will see more India as it is not as hard to enter as China. KUL will come back but I think that might take time, Malaysia hasn't been doing well, just look at MH. I think we might even see SGN in the mix.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 1):
It's my understanding that NWA does not have authority to operate "redundant" routes to China. That is, DTW-NRT-PEK, in addition to DTW-PEK. Only this newest route authority for DTW-PVG is granting them that.

What are the restrictions on NW's 5th freedom rights?
If they can't do NRT-PEK and use their current standing DTW-PEK authority, can they use that 5th freedom to maybe open up Dalian, Hangzhou or Shenyang?



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6700 times:

Ah, but the treaties.

The US-China bilateral agreement is fairly restrictive. NW will never get some huge, sweeping mainland US-China network with a dozen 787 flights daily. NW can't push the traffic to China that some of their competitors can, thus the 787s on the China routes. DTW doesn't really have much O and D, which doesn't help. That and they are competing with their own routes going 5th freedom through NRT.

As for SGN, the current treaty only allows each nation to nominate a single carrier to serve the other. Right now the US has nominated UA to be their carrier to serve vietnam (the daily 747-400 flight routed through HKG). That would need to go away for NW to get in on it.

If MH joins skyteam then maybe we can see a US carrier in KUL, something I would VERY much like to see... (getting there from the US right now is more connections and more hassle... no US airlines even codeshare into KUL... UA codeshares into Kota Kinabalu via a less than daily Asiana flight, maybe?

Quoting Centrair (Reply 3):

I think that we will see more India as it is not as hard to enter as China. KUL will come back but I think that might take time, Malaysia hasn't been doing well, just look at MH. I think we might even see SGN in the mix.

We will probably see India, TLV, maybe even a return to aus. There is no skyteam on US to aus, I'm pretty sure that NW could easily pack a 787 daily to SYD from LAX or SEA with their connections... hell, their 787s could even make it to SYD from MSP... but no real reason to do that, I suppose.. just lose more payload.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6556 times:

NW's choice for the 787 is based upon two reason 1) is that they believe that the sudden influx of new China flights in a very short period of time will significantly dillute yields 2) the 787 will be such a game changer that it will be prefered by passengers 3) NW will use the nonstop DTW-PVG for higher yielding traffic, while continuing to route low yield/leisure/consolidator traffic over its NRT hub into China.

As I've said before NW said that would restart JFK-NRT with the 787 at the time they suspended the route, but since then there has been no official reconfirmation of this promise. As we all know, things in this industry change, and until you see the aircraft at the gate loading for its first flight on a particular route - nothing is 100% positive. I say that because a lot can change over two years....so I wouldn't be surprised for that to go either way.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17501 posts, RR: 45
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6453 times:

How is NW going to leverage its NRT assets and simultaneously overfly it with 787s?


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3933 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6408 times:

IMO, NWA will not let NRT die. Those slots are the jewel in NWAs crown. With the 787 and its reduced capasity, I think we'll see flights that depart the US and overfly the NRT hub and arrive in important Asia destinations. ICN, PEK, SHA, HKG, MNL etc... As PSU said, these nonstop flights will come at a premium and will be more expensive, capturing the higher yielding market (like MSP-HNL nonstop).

Perhaps we'll even see more service to Japan from the hubs and gateways. With that said, what will that do to the FUGU operation (internal label for the NRT hub)? I think it means a change of gague on flights that are overflight markets as well. The high density hub-NRT flights on the 744 will remain, but once interport the capasity will be reduced.

I still see a 350 seat a/c being the more logical replacement for the 744s. With the new overflying, the age of the 744s and the fact that they just won't need as much capasity to NRT, the 773 or equivalent would be perfect. These are exciting times and we'll learn alot about what NWA has in store for the future, probably late this year and throughout 2008 leading up to the launch.


AZJ


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17501 posts, RR: 45
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6363 times:

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 7):
Those slots are the jewel in NWAs crown

Yeah but I don't think it's a very profitable jewel and they can't sell it.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3933 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6329 times:

Wait... you're saying NWA's NRT hub is not profitable?






AZJ


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6319 times:

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
We all know that many of you don't like it that NW doesn't use their current route authority. (They only have DTW-PEK...nothing else...all other China access is 5th freedom).

NWA does not fly DTW-PEK, but they did at one time. It uses its PEK authority via NRT. It can't do both as it has only one authority to PEK.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17501 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6291 times:

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 9):
Wait... you're saying NWA's NRT hub is not profitable?

I obviously don't know for sure, but I don't think it's as profitable as everyone imagines it to be. They face superior service and schedules in their regional Asian markets, they are overflown to most of their beyond NRT destinations, they have very little connectivity on the North American side with the exception of MSP and DTW, and even the Japanese carriers are having a tough time with their long haul traffic.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2226 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6250 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 5):
As I've said before NW said that would restart JFK-NRT with the 787 at the time they suspended the route, but since then there has been no official reconfirmation of this promise.

I would be surprised if NW restarted JFK-NRT. The local market is already well served by AA, JL, and NH out of JFK, and CO out of EWR, with DL likely to enter the market eventually, too. And, few people are going to take NW JFK-NRT-ICN/TPE/HKG/PEK/PVG when they can fly nonstop from JFK and / or EWR to these cities on other airlines.

I think we're more likely to see NW resume DTW-ICN, and maybe even add DTW-HKG; that way, NW can flow their New York City-Asia passengers from all four New York area airports to Asia via DTW, much the same way United routed New York - Asia passengers through ORD and SFO after UA dropped JFK-NRT.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6190 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
Yeah but I don't think it's a very profitable jewel and they can't sell it.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
I obviously don't know for sure, but I don't think it's as profitable as everyone imagines it to be.

As seen during Ch. 11, NW shed a number of unprofitable routes. Since NW is earning a profit as a whole, there is no reason to suggest that NRT is dragging them down. Particularly when a number of airlines, including US legacies CO, DL, US would love to get their hands on additional NRT slots.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
They face superior service and schedules in their regional Asian markets, they are overflown to most of their beyond NRT destinations, they have very little connectivity on the North American side with the exception of MSP and DTW, and even the Japanese carriers are having a tough time with their long haul traffic.

It give DTW, MSP, SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, & HNL single-connection access to all of their intra-Asia destinations, something that no other carrier offers from DTW, MSP, & PDX. It is also very competitive from the others. Contrary to popular belief, the A330 offers an exceptionally nice product that is very much on par with the competition. NW has appropriately scaled capacity to be able to fly these routes properly. Hence why there are now 757's & A330's flying within Asia.


User currently offlineNW748i From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 362 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6169 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 1):
Questions like that fuel the rumors that NW intends to convert all their 744's to 744F's, to replace all of the 742F's.

I still hold out hope that NW will find room for the 748i. However, with the looks of their Asian expansion plan, the 788 seems to be the way they're heading for the trans-Pacific routes.



Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7545 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6106 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 12):
I would be surprised if NW restarted JFK-NRT.

That is/was the planned first route of the 787.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17501 posts, RR: 45
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6089 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 13):
there is no reason to suggest that NRT is dragging them down

I'm not saying it's unprofitable, I'm suggesting it's not as profitable as everyone might think it is, and I don't see much improvement on the horizon.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 13):
Particularly when a number of airlines, including US legacies CO, DL, US would love to get their hands on additional NRT slots

Yeah, for Transpacific routes, not regional tags

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 13):
Contrary to popular belief, the A330 offers an exceptionally nice product that is very much on par with the competition.

It's not the cabin service so much as the schedule that's problematic. If you're in Tokyo, you need two extra hotel nights to fly NW to any of its regional destinations for business or leisure.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 13):
It give DTW, MSP, SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, & HNL single-connection access to all of their intra-Asia destinations,

Which, again with few exceptions, you can get on many other carriers via hubs that offer more connecting opportunities.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6071 times:

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 7):
IMO, NWA will not let NRT die

Of course NW won't. If it wasn't for NRT, there's no way NW could fill a 332 to PEK, 744 to PVG or a 752 to CAN. NW is not a strong airline to China, that's the reality. They could have had larger airplanes on PEK/CAn but they don't. That clearly indicates the actual demands to China on NW. On the other hand, UA flies 5 744's currently to China. Even if NW flies today with 744's to PEK/PVG from DTW, I doubt it would be profittable. That's why they ordered 787's to do those routes.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2226 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6015 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 15):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 12):
I would be surprised if NW restarted JFK-NRT.

That is/was the planned first route of the 787.

Yes, but a lot has changed at NWA since the 787 order was placed.

When NW announced LGA-DFW earlier this year, they could have said in the press release "we're adding this route as part of our commitment to New York City, which will include resumption of JFK-Tokyo flights next year".

As PSU.DTW.SCE says, there haven't been any public comments about the route in a while. If Northwest was serious about resuming the route, I think they would be reminding the public about when they would restart it every time they issued a press release about service to New York City.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3505 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5915 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 1):
Bringing back SEA-HKG with the 787 also seems to be a widespread and popular rumor.

I'd bet on seeing quite a few new/revived SEA-Asia routes once a substantial number of 787s are online. The plane is perfect for many of those markets. I could also see NH starting up NGO-SEA in the near future with their planes...



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17501 posts, RR: 45
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5822 times:

Turns out the whole thing is unprofitable apparently:

US Carriers International Route Profitability (by Laxintl Sep 26 2007 in Civil Aviation)



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMikey711MN From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1398 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5785 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
Turns out the whole thing is unprofitable apparently

Well, apparently it is for 2Q07, which would certainly explain why NW desires to overfly NRT then in the long run...

Right?

-Mike



I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17501 posts, RR: 45
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5689 times:

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 21):
Well, apparently it is for 2Q07, which would certainly explain why NW desires to overfly NRT then in the long run...

It's only one quarter, but relative to the other carriers it makes you wonder. But if it overflies NRT, what does it do with the NRT assets?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5632 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
It's only one quarter, but relative to the other carriers it makes you wonder. But if it overflies NRT, what does it do with the NRT assets?

NW will over fly NRT and use 5th freedoms as well. I think that is why they are getting 787s. 68 is a lot of planes. Though only 19 to start, in the end they could have tons more. NRT is just one city in Japan. It is a very profitable city. But NW also make a ton flying to MNL. It is hard to get seats on MNL-NGO-DTW or MNL-NRT-MSP.

When you look at the competition for carriers flying between NRT and other Asian destinations, it is limited to JL. NH and the other country's carrier. NW comes into the mix and everything changes. NW has resized their fleet to meet a changing market and will keep changing to meet that market. They have been flying to Asia longer than any other carrier out there and have done a pretty darn good job at it. I think they know what they are doing. 60 years of flying the Pacific this year. 1947-2007.

If UA sold off their 5th freedom rights from Japan, you bet that another US carrier would snatch them up faster than you can say WAIT...BUT! NW's inter-Asia flights go out full in all sections and in the hold. WBC is packed. When ever I fly DTW-NGO. WBC is full with pax going on to MNL. Waiting at NGO are a ton of other people.

A few years back NW introduced NRT-NGO-SPN flight. This connects two Japanese airports for the simple use of feeding passengers through the entire NW network in Asia and the US. This flight is PACKED. I set my seats for the 22nd of December and it is already filling up.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
If you're in Tokyo, you need two extra hotel nights to fly NW to any of its regional destinations for business or leisure.

Really? Here is an example.

http://homepage.mac.com/justinwdart/.Pictures/NWA/AsiaA332scheduleIN.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/justinwdart/.Pictures/NWA/AsiaA332scheduleOUT.jpg

You can connect to any of NW's NRT departure flights either going to SPN or GUM or to mainland Asia from any US arriving flight. You can also connect to NW' NRT departure flights going to the US from SPN or GUM or from Mainland Asia.

The only places where things don't line up right now are at KIX. You can't fly HNL-KIX-TPE. You miss the plane by 30 minutes. But you can fly MNL-SPN via NGO! Arrive at NGO at 11:45 and depart for SPN at 21:10. (The departure time is set to line up with DTW arriving passengers.)



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineChase From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5617 times:

I'm kind of hoping that eventually (not with the first or second aircraft they get, but later) the 787 will enable NW to do IND-AMS.

25 MaverickM11 : How do you know? I'm hearing a lot of anecdotal evidence ala "it's full so it must be profitable"... If you're based in Japan, and you have a meeting
26 Centrair : One of the wealthiest in the world. Home to many Corporations. Japan...2nd richest nation in the world. If it weren't profitable, why would people se
27 Gigneil : Flying within Japan is not 5th freedom, its 6th. To fly to Japanese cities, the flight must originate outside of Japan, and if it continues within Ja
28 MaverickM11 : According to the other thread they posted a loss on their Pacific routes in 2Q07, and they do not fly a single route over Japan. That means Japan is
29 Centrair : In the heat of typing I missed a few words. I guess I meant to say that NW would be flying A320s from all over Japan to other places in Asia and with
30 MaverickM11 : 2nd most profitable after domestic? That's the measuring stick you're using? And you're using revenue and percentage change to convey profitability?
31 Burnsie28 : 2nd biggest, are you sure about that?
32 MaverickM11 : Yep, UA is much bigger especially in terms of ASMs.
33 Gigneil : I like NW just fine, and I see -2.7% profit on the entire Pacific network, which is NRT, being a loss. NS
34 YHZ : NW will employ the 787 on routes that they cannot or won't serve now, DTW ICN comes to mind and of course JFK NRT(doesn't matter what competition they
35 Flysherwood : HUH?!?!? Why do you need two extra hotel nights if you are in Tokyo? I have been in Tokyo many times and needed to go to MNL or HKG on short notice a
36 Mikey711MN : Not to be at all condescending, but you'll probably want to review that other thread, which suggests--at least--that NW's 2Q07 trans-Pacific operatio
37 Post contains images Flysherwood : We all might want to take into account that one bad quarter doesn't make NRT an unprofitable hub overall. There could have been a lot of one time cha
38 Post contains images Flysherwood : Very well put. That was an excellent post!
39 MaverickM11 : That's physically impossible unless you spent all of your time in MNL or HKG between the hours of midnight and 5am. Their regional schedule is timed
40 Centrair : So I can't take the flight because it not timed for me and others in Japan? Please clarify this statement.
41 PSU.DTW.SCE : Due to the nature of NW's NRT hub, the intra-Asia flights (with the exception of SPN/GUM beach markets) are not necessarily optimally timed for Japan
42 Post contains images Flysherwood : I guess I have no idea what you meant with your original premise. I went to HKG and MNL did my business in two days. There were no extra penalty days
43 MaverickM11 : It's an extra cost that business travelers do not want to spend, mostly in terms of time rather than the money. See also reply #41.
44 B2443 : Well, let's see how I have chosen UA/CO instead of NW in the past... If I were to go to a city in China other than PEK/PVG/CAN (sya Xi'an) from the U
45 PSU.DTW.SCE : For those people investing the time & money to travel to China from the United State primarily for business, an additional night needed due to schedul
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