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DL Exec - We Want To Be #1 In Latin America  
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8964 times:

A DL exec for Latin America was quoted in Aviation Daily today as saying that DL is #2 in Latin America and is very much interested in being #1. He also said that DL is nowhere near tapping out their growth prospects in Latin America and the Caribbean despite growing at 30% per year.

Sounds like DL has plenty of markets they intend to enter and make work.

152 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8921 times:

They applied for extra Colombia frequencies today, but Spirit and possibly Continental will be competing for them.

Some markets left for them, but they are never going to become #1. They'll be a solid #2. I'm willing to bet most growth will shift to focusing on JFK and LAX, and in the much farther future, maybe South Florida.

[Edited 2007-09-28 01:59:07]


a.
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8916 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
Some markets left for them, but they are never going to become #1. They'll be a solid #2.

Has someone invented a time travel machine? Wow, I didn't get that memo.


User currently offlineMastaHanky From United States of America, joined May 2006, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8897 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):

Some markets left for them, but they are never going to become #1. They'll be a solid #2.

Oh, they'll become #1 ... the day that they decide to merge with AA and inherit MIA.  Wink


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8874 times:

Quoting MastaHanky (Reply 3):
Oh, they'll become #1 ... the day that they decide to merge with AA and inherit MIA.

you do know that one of AMR's biggest investors says that they want AMR to do more to enhance stockholder value?

And UA said yesterday that they are entertaining the idea of selling assets.

AS' market capitalization is at multi-year lows.

DL has more opportunities to grow internationally than they know what to do.

It shouldn't be hard for DL to grow in Latin America. DL has eclipsed AA to Europe and with LHR soon on the horizon will be able to match AA in its strongest international identity.

I'm betting DL will succeed at being #1 in Latin America within the next 7 years.


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8862 times:

I would have guessed DL was #3 - behind AA and CO...I guess not...

International expansion is great, but one must have the planes and crews to do so. I hate the thought of more RJ's cluttering American skies for international flights, but if that's where the money is...



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3553 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8862 times:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't many Latin American countries treaty-restricted in terms of airlines, frequencies & destinations? I'm thinking of Brazil, Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, and maybe Argentina? Maybe others?

I think it will be much more difficult for DL to expand in that area (especially the major markets) than they have in Europe based on government restrictions alone.


User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8839 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
you do know that one of AMR's biggest investors says that they want AMR to do more to enhance stockholder value?

I hope you're not implying that American is going to sell Miami.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
It shouldn't be hard for DL to grow in Latin America. DL has eclipsed AA to Europe and with LHR soon on the horizon will be able to match AA in its strongest international identity

The US has far more open treaties with European countries than South American countries, which is why Delta could just flood the market with flights. They can't do that in south America, unless they plan on adding two dozen flights from Chile and Uruguay, which is fine by me.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
AS' market capitalization is at multi-year lows.

That's an interesting proposition. Very interesting. I could imagine quite the bidding war once Delta or anyone announces their interest.

Quoting MastaHanky (Reply 3):
Oh, they'll become #1 ... the day that they decide to merge with AA and inherit MIA.  

That, or if a whole bunch of South Americans flood into Atlanta.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 2):
Has someone invented a time travel machine? Wow, I didn't get that memo.

Mark has a point, American has Miami and New York. Delta has Atlanta and New York. Miami IS Latin America.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8831 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
maybe South Florida.

...so with this statement, are you implying that their alleged plan to beef up MFW (which seemed to result only in a single ill-fated int'l route ex-FLL) is, at least for now, defunt?


User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3553 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8821 times:

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 7):
Miami IS Latin America.

Miami is definitely South America. You could make an argument that LAX IS Mexico and Central America. Perhaps DL will continue building LAX-Central America (where treaties allow). But I still can't believe they got rid of LAX-MEX.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8822 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):

I'm betting DL will succeed at being #1 in Latin America within the next 7 years.

I'm betting you will be wrong.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 8):

...so with this statement, are you implying that their alleged plan to beef up MFW (which seemed to result only in a single ill-fated int'l route ex-FLL) is, at least for now, defunt?

I don't think South Florida expansion is going to happen until they reach the point where they need to go there in order to grow more in the region.



a.
User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2100 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8803 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
I'm betting DL will succeed at being #1 in Latin America within the next 7 years.

It certainly is a very ambitious goal and not impossible to achieve at some point, but also not likely using traditional growth methods. However, DL has a management team in place, particularly in route planning, that can and does think outside the box when it comes to growth. Though, For the foreseeable future, I believe this lofty goal is definately worth pursuing but may end up only being a goal and not a reality any time soon. Not with that Juggernaut down in MIA.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6694 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8782 times:

Before becoming #1, DL might want to work on actually making some profits in Latin America. DL has never made a consistent profit in that part of the world.

User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8751 times:

That's cute, and laughable.

User currently offlineJetBlueGuy2006 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1663 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8717 times:

Who would # 2? I would have thought it would have been NK, but apparently DL is????


Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8709 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 12):
Before becoming #1, DL might want to work on actually making some profits in Latin America. DL has never made a consistent profit in that part of the world.

while true, DL also is far more profitable on its domestic system than AA is which has allowed DL to subsidize international growth from its domestic system. Given that AA has some of the highest costs in the industry and CO is not growing much in Latin America, this is a perfect time for DL to be aggressively going after the biggest chunk of the Latin American market it can.

And I'll remind you that in the last quarter, DL lost the same 0.14 cents/ASM on its Latin American system that NW lost flying to Asia. No one is suggesting that NW should quit flying to Asia or that it should not seek growth opportunities.

Let me suggest a couple of possibilities for how DL might continue to grow:

1. many of DL's Latin American destinations are served 1X/day from ATL.. some like SJO now have multiple flights per day but it is the exception. There are still opportunities to grow from ATL. It really doesn't matter how big ATL is when they can connect just about the entire country over ATL except for S. Florida (yes, DL carries about as much traffic from Central Florida to Latin America as AA does) - including picking off traffic from NYC which they do - and DL carries far more traffic from Europe and Asia to Latin America than AA does.

2. DL hasn't even begun to build out JFK or LAX to Latin America.

3. LAX growth could very much be augmented by an acquisition of Alaska which already has a large presence to Mexico, which could easily be supplemented with much more service to central and S. America.

4. United is up for selling assets. They continue to hold valuable slots into Latin America yet UA has generally not been able to make money there (they did in the most recent quarter) despite continuing to reduce capacity. I would bet that UA would sell Latin assets if DL were interested.

5. Spirit is building a nice little base from FLL to Latin America. DL could buy that operation after it gets established and have a ready made operation from S. Florida. AA would love the prospect of competing against DL who will intelligently price its product instead of competing with NK. Unlike AA's previous attempts at squashing competition (ie TWA), the DOT would not allow AA to buy NK because of antitrust issues.

The prospects of DL being #1 in Latin America are actually pretty good.


User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8709 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 5):
would have guessed DL was #3 - behind AA and CO...I guess not...

CO serves more cities than DL. for example CO in IAH Houston has more service to more cities in Mexico than any other airport


Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
AWACS, Europe, we have no easy button


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3746 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8694 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
I'm betting DL will succeed at being #1 in Latin America within the next 7 years.

Doubtful, unless something happens to AA such that they have to pull back Latin America, which I don't see happening.



PHX based
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8667 times:

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 14):
Who would # 2? I would have thought it would have been NK, but apparently DL is????

NK is less than half DL's size. DL is growing because they are adding flights to deep S. America as well as from JFK and LAX where the stage lengths are longer. CO is at a disadvantage from a statistical point of view because they fly from a hub that is closer to Latin America.

Also, CO is not growing to Latin America which is allowing them to push their yields higher but in terms of market share, DL is going for the jugular.

For those that think AA is so invincible, I'll remind you that their primary objective right now is fighting off NK which is a REAL threat. AA's fares this year to Latin America are MUCH lower than they were a year ago. Maintaining market share is secondary when your yields are dropping like a rock. DL may be after the larger Latin American title but it is NK that is stabbing AA in the chest.... over and over again. Their A319s and 320s have more than enough range to inflict some serious damage to all but AA's deep S. America markets.


User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3433 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8652 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
That's cute, and laughable.

You can't blame DL for trying. I like that they're not satisfied with being #2, and that they're willing to give AA a run for their money. In the end, the traveling public can only benefit.

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 14):
Who would # 2? I would have thought it would have been NK, but apparently DL is????

While NK has certainly publicized their recent Latin American expansion, DL still flies more daily frequencies using larger aircraft. I expect that CO is a close third, though.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15):
5. Spirit is building a nice little base from FLL to Latin America. DL could buy that operation after it gets established and have a ready made operation from S. Florida. AA would love the prospect of competing against DL who will intelligently price its product instead of competing with NK. Unlike AA's previous attempts at squashing competition (ie TWA), the DOT would not allow AA to buy NK because of antitrust issues.

While unlikely, I would love to see this happen, if only to see the new NK livery banished from the skies.


User currently offlineFewsolarge From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8649 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
That's cute, and laughable.

It kind of is. Leapfrogging over AA in Latin America would be a coup of legendary proportions. It would be amazing even if AA completely stopped growing. I'm going to bet that in 2014 AA will still be #1 ... comfortably, but by a significantly smaller margin.

I'd say that Delta's best chance would be buying Spirit and getting serious about FLL ... while continuing the pace of its growth in ATL, JFK and LAX. Time also to get serious about partnerships in the region, which looks like it's finally happening.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17786 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8625 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15):
1. many of DL's Latin American destinations are served 1X/day from ATL..

DL has had a rough time filling a good number of those daily flights out of ATL, particularly the last couple rounds of additions. I don't see the local ATL market growing much and they'll have to compete for the connecting traffic, which will continue to grow, with everyone else.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6694 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8621 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15):
And I'll remind you that in the last quarter, DL lost the same 0.14 cents/ASM on its Latin American system that NW lost flying to Asia. No one is suggesting that NW should quit flying to Asia or that it should not seek growth opportunities.

True, but NW isn't growing in Asia at a 30% pace.

Not to mention that DL's shareholders might want to know why DL is growing in a region where it has perpetually lost money. Like AA, DL is going to find itself under shareholder pressure since DL's stock has been lackluster so far.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15):
DL could buy that operation after it gets established and have a ready made operation from S. Florida.

Except that Spirit's success in FLL is by offering dirt-cheap fares in order to compete with AA. DL's costs are too high to use that business model in South Florida.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8603 times:

The "Spirit effect" is ridiculously overstated by many. There is a market for them to co-exist, and that is largely thanks to Spirit's "ultra-low cost model". Delta is also not invisible to them. Spirit flies many Caribbean and LatAm passengers connecting from Atlanta and LaGuardia, among other markets.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
DL has had a rough time filling a good number of those daily flights out of ATL, particularly the last couple rounds of additions.

Especially Managua and San Pedro Sula.



a.
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8594 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
DL has had a rough time filling a good number of those daily flights out of ATL

Really? DL's Latin load factors are competitive with the rest of the industry. Check their traffic releases.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
True, but NW isn't growing in Asia at a 30% pace.

Then they shouldn't be losing the .14 cents per ASM that DL is while growing at a 30% rate.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
Not to mention that DL's shareholders might want to know why DL is growing in a region where it has perpetually lost money.

Or that they see value in cementing DL's position in a strong and growing region. My Latin America funds are growing far faster than are other regions. DL's BOD knows where the world economy is growing.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
Except that Spirit's success in FLL is by offering dirt-cheap fares in order to compete with AA.

Who says DL has to raise fares? They could continue to price lower than AA because DL has lower costs.

You do realize also that DL lost a boat load of money on Song but it did succeed in finally getting solidly established in the NYC transcon market. DL is a solid competitor in those markets thanks to losing money on Song for a year and a half in the transcons. Considering the size of the transcon market and its importance in the overall NYC market, probably turned out to be a pretty reasonable investment.


25 777STL : Assuming DL doesn't purchase Spirit, that's going to cause DL as much difficulties if not more than it will cause AA. AA is already established in La
26 MaverickM11 : On average but by route quite a few of their latest adds, primarily in Central America and the Caribbean are hovering around half full.
27 OB1504 : In the end though, it's the profit that counts. Like you said earlier, they're losing an average of $0.14/ASM on their Latin American network: can al
28 MAH4546 : In addition, even though Latin American traffic is becoming more spread out than it used to be, the high-yielding traffic is still extremely focused
29 Incitatus : That depends on the measure to be #1. On number of routes to Latin America served on Saturdays I expect Delta to be #1 in the region very soon. The r
30 Flighty : My, what a nice thick stream of piss coming from the DL camp. This time, the pissing match is over Latin America. Great, whatever. It's just talk. Ame
31 Tu154m : DL will NEVER compete with AA into this part of the world. Flying RJs on 3hr 15min route out of ATL doesn't help either...................nor does onl
32 Post contains images BWIA 772 : Base on what I have seen of DL in the Caribbean DL is a long long long long long long long way from achieving this. The was some fuss when they enter
33 WorldTraveler : they obviously have alot of markets where they are above average loads or they couldn't be maintaining industry average loads. yes, right where AA is
34 DL Widget Head : If that sentiment were only true from the upper echelon of the AA camp then their dominance could be challenged that much sooner. No doubt, AA must r
35 MaverickM11 : Well...until recently AA management's seemed asleep at the wheel and ceased growing, ignored seasonality, and refused to react to incursions from com
36 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : That is most likely the game-plan they will use to increase their profile amongst the U.S. Latino market. Focus on the two biggest, BUT MIA will rema
37 DL Widget Head : DL is solidly ahead of US in these areas now and the margin will only widen over time. If DL hasn't passed CO yet, then they will supplant them soon.
38 ConcordeBoy : nice, what EQP?
39 Post contains images OB1504 : AA and NK are going after two completely different markets: AA caters to the business traveler and the upper-end leisure traveler (medium- to high-yi
40 Post contains links MAH4546 : On a select few coach seats per flight, yes. On last-minute seats and business/first class? No. Give it up already with the ridiculous Spirit argumen
41 DL Widget Head : I daresay a 737-700 or even a 757.
42 DAL767400ER : Probably a 757. For some reason the PDF of the application comes up blank for me at work, but the main page for the docket mentions that DL has also
43 MAH4546 : They will get at least seven frequencies no doubt (21 are available). If NK applies for 14, though, DOT will likely be inclined to give "the little g
44 Commavia : It's about frigging time. This is a market that AA served very briefly - with a 767-200, believe it or not - way back in 1998. They should be flying
45 Summa767 : Great to know that DL have applied for 14 frequencies to Colombia. I hope that they get them all. Now that DL is overhauling its ops at JFK, a DL fli
46 FlyPNS1 : It doesn't matter how fast it's growing, you still have to eventually make money there. Using your growth logic, DL should be rapidly growing in Flor
47 Carls : To become a #1 USA airline flaying to South America the need to start flaying to MIA not to Atlanta, at least from South America. Most people fly to M
48 AAL0616 : It is old news by now, but DAL did have their opportunity to compete directly with AAL from MIA when they did not acquire the PAA MIA base. UAL did, a
49 LawnDart : DL could build a little presence in MIA without much effort. The new South Terminal could house SkyTeam...so right off the bat, you've got non-stop s
50 Commavia : AA would eat them alive.
51 ERJ170 : Speaking of routes South of the United States... Does anyone know when DL will get awarded the rights to fly CUN-RDU/BDL/MCO? It's be a while since th
52 Post contains links DAL767400ER : DL trying to expand longhaul to South America out of MIA would be a bloodbath. Not to mention that most bilaterals the US has with South American cou
53 HVNandrew : I believe they were already awarded. And all of the flights show up in the DL system.
54 Incitatus : I am sorry but that is false. Delta can only claim 2nd largest domestic network if you include contract carriers for it and exclude it for others. Ma
55 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Hint: Delta also lost a sh!tload of money on their "much bigger" domestic network a few years ago. Ask anyboy in the finance department at Delta. A c
56 Post contains images LawnDart : Why is it that DL trying to compete against AA would be a bloodbath, but AA adding flights out of JFK to Europe doesn't seem to be a problem? AA's co
57 Commavia : First off, I don't think anyone said it would be a cake walk. I personally do think that AA's recently announced JFK-Europe expansion (if you can rea
58 Yellowtail : Yep..they cancelled MID and San Pedro Sula, RTB, and MGA are struggling badly. DL may want to be the biggest but CO and AA understand the market more
59 LAXdude1023 : I dont think so. Dont get me wrong, I think DL will continue to be strong in Latin America, but ATL bigger than MIA in Latin America...I cant imagine
60 EXAAUADL : That's a tough hill for them to climb. The airline hubbed in MIA will likely reamin the largest to Latin America. When you throw in AA's DFW and JFK
61 B752OS : How do you figure, with LHR that is. DL is only going to offer LHR flights to 2, maybe 3 US cities (ATL and JFK, is CVG getting LHR service?) while A
62 Asteriskceo : DL Exec-- Why not try to be #1 in North America first!? You didn't do too well according to Forbes.
63 Cubsrule : The problem with Argentina is that DL doesn't have two 763s to allocate to MIA-EZE right now, and if they tried to run a daylight route one way, AA w
64 AAL0616 : Hey Cubsrule, are you guys as nervous or more so than the Red Sox fans right now? What happened in Miami the past three nights? I bet you are glad Mil
65 LawnDart : Thanks for the explanation! If all companies thought that way, there would be no Hyundais on American roads today... All in all, I would, in fact, be
66 STT757 : I think it has more to do with UAL downsizing from 767s to 757s that have a capacity of a 737-500, than anything DL concocted.
67 EXAAUADL : DL doesnt plan on flying that do they? Someone should do FLL-EZE
68 FlyPNS1 : Sorry, but Song has little to do with DL's success on the transcons. DL's performance on the transcons has improved because they offer far more conne
69 MaverickM11 : I think it's primarily the decrease in UA capacity as mentioned and the general increase in fares. I don't think DL is connecting much over JFK, and
70 Cubsrule : I hope not; they'd lose their shirt. Nevertheless, Argentina is one of the easiest markets to crack in terms of bilaterals right now (as long as we'v
71 Jfk777 : Delta has done wonders expanding Latin Service from Atlanta since 1996 when it launched Atlanta-GRU service. But Atlanta isn't Miami, Miami will never
72 Incitatus : That is the prevalent spin in this thread. New routes are announced with much hype, at the same time previously announced ones are discretely pulled
73 MAH4546 : AA wouldn't eat them alive. There is room for two US airlines in Miami-LatAm. It probably wouldn't. Any Delta service between Miami and Latin America
74 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Umm... In case you didn't realise it, DL only left CH11 this year. But if you prefer living in your own time... The planes are wanted to replace CRJs
75 MAH4546 : On a side note, South America demand is not evenly spread like other markets. Peak travel is November through February and, then again, early June th
76 DAL767400ER : I thought it was primarily late December/early January was prime time, with DL and AA being granted additional traffic rights by Brazil (as an exampl
77 DeltaL1011man : yea so JFK,LGA,DCA,BOS,SLC,CVG,MCO should i keep going? LAX will go mainline but why not start with RJs and work up? i would love it if DL was still
78 MAH4546 : AA and DL have those additional rights during July/August, as well. DL didn't use them this summer, IIRC, but AA did. Brazilian holidays are during t
79 DAL767400ER : Interesting, didn't know that. Guess DL's usual lack of free widebodies during summer season can be blamed on them not offering additional frequencie
80 MAH4546 : The flight was originally bookable as a daylight service, using a plane otherwise sitting in GRU. Advance loads were poor. Delta has never been succe
81 LAXdude1023 : Im pretty sure that DL did operate ATL-GRU more than 7x weekly for a while. I recall being at ATL waiting to fly back to LAX and seeing a morning fli
82 MAH4546 : Yes, they did, but the flight was not very popular and transferred to JFK-GRU, itself not very successful as Delta hasn't been able to get great yiel
83 WorldTraveler : then why does AA match the fares and why are their yields going down based on DOT data? UA is nothing in JFK and DL is doing much better in BOS where
84 MAH4546 : I never said you said anything about it. If Delta wants to be #1, they have to enter MIA/FLL-Latin America. How about the fact that Delta has never b
85 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...add DFW-LHR next year also...
86 WorldTraveler : I would agree with except that JFK and LAX are far from being built out and those two markets are huge, in addition to the additional capacity DL cou
87 LawnDart : Someone needs a hug...or a Midol...
88 MastaHanky : Ah, the first thing I ever learned on A.net: Every route for every airline was/is wildly profitable, and was only axed due to (Choose any of the foll
89 WorldTraveler : how about facts..... instead of GUESSES as to how an airline does on a particular route or why it is cancelled. For years, people here were convinced
90 LAXdude1023 : They can be number one, but not without a Southern Florida Hub.
91 LawnDart : Okay, it's official...you need a Midol! Your previous rant was not (I don't think) directed towards me. Furthermore, you need to be a little more civ
92 RwSEA : I'm sorry but when DL decides it's more profitable to leave a 763 sitting in GRU all day than to fly it up to ATL and back, then that's a good sign t
93 MAH4546 : Korean Air, April 2008, ICN-LAX-GRU, 3x weekly. I bet Delta will codeshare.
94 STT757 : Again UAL has drawn down capacity significantly in many Trans-Con markets, BOS, EWR and JFK being the most evident. The reckless desire to grow in La
95 DeltaL1011man : hey now lets get of WT's back he is probably(like me) of everyone on this site hating Delta because they did something 10 years ago with two dumb CEO
96 WorldTraveler : I don't and never have said that airline XX doesn't make money on route XYZ-ABC because I DON"T KNOW THAT... and neither does anyone else here. I hav
97 MastaHanky : Where did he say they should throw in the towel? Please tell me you don't argue/debate for a living. Just because he doesn't think they should expand
98 LACA773 : Is AV part of Sky Team? I could see this flight working on a 752 or 738. I know AV rotates their 76Xs and 752s on this route. With all this talk in t
99 Commavia : Two reasons: 1) lack of focus by United, and 2) intense focus by AA. United and AA both came to the Miami-South America (and really overall U.S.-Sout
100 Post contains images MD90fan : Delta #1 to Latin America? On what planet? It won't happen as long as Atlanta doesn't ring a bell in Latin America, as mentioned before, they will nee
101 MAH4546 : The only countries where there is nothing stopping them are Chile and Uraguay, which aren't exactly huge markets. AA operated their winter daylights
102 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..whoa there buddy, I didn't make that quote..... ..show the proof where they were losing money "for years".....if they were losing money for "years"
103 DAL767400ER : No, just a codeshare-partner with DL. DL could, but then again, any money DL has to invest, they'd rather invest that in new planes and slots at a ce
104 ERJ170 : the press announcement still says awaiting government approval
105 STT757 : CO relies less on their Domestic network than any other US legacy carrier, which is why CO has been consistently profitable since becoming the first
106 STT757 : CO was awarded EWR-EZE, they gave it up so DL picked up the route authority and went on to take a bath in red ink on the route for a long time. CO ch
107 WorldTraveler : there is a certain sarcasm here which the internet misses... if only we could debate in person. because DL has strategically decided it was worth inc
108 STT757 : DL #1 in losses to South America is not something to strive for, DL should concentrate on profitability.[Edited 2007-09-30 03:12:20]
109 WorldTraveler : I say the same thing about CO domestically, and their domestic system represents a heck of a lot more revenue than DL's relatvely small Latin system.
110 LipeGIG : In fact DL use to fly ATL-GRU 2x daily but just after they begin ATL-GIG their yields (and loads) went down and they decided 1 year later to move one
111 LACA773 : Thanks for the information, DAL767400ER. I apreciate it. Would AV be a good strategic partner for SkyTeam in in South America? They are also doing pr
112 OA412 : Incorrect! Both DL and CO were awarded new route authorities to EZE when they were made available by the Argentine government. DL won ATL-EZE and CO
113 Summa767 : They are doing really well on LAX, so frequencies are going up to 4 x weekly, as that is all AV have been allowed for the moment, but as new frequenc
114 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..that's the whole problem with the "do a search"...A.net's search engine isn't Google exactly... ..hence why I had the icon.....I was being a bit sa
115 Post contains images UAL777UK : Blimey, will it be like the massive espansion at LAX......and all be on RJ's...wow, those are long sectors!
116 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : hehehe, "solid #2" ...not a problem for DL in particular. toss in "Legacy" between "2" and "carriers" to make this statement accurate
117 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : I thought it has been rumored that alot of the LAX to latin american routes are not doing very well. price seems to be the only determining factor on
118 Flighty : Probably true. Delta would jump on LAX-Latin America (and LAX-Asia) if it were easy to survive there. Fact is, Latin America is not so keen on the We
119 WorldTraveler : The whole reason DL would start a LAX hub is because they want to siphon some of that traffic off of DFW and IAH; DL is not interested in leaving tra
120 Incitatus : None! Was my comment so opaque? The reality is that routes are pulled for lack of profits. "Lack of aircraft" is an excuse so often bandied around, e
121 LipeGIG : Right, and there are good opportunities ahead, like JFK-GIG, flights to Brazilian Northeast, BSB, CNF, all markets that can sustain flights to US at
122 2travel2know : Good old Eastern had MEX and PTY out of ATL in the early 80's.
123 COflyerBOS : Is Delta really bigger in Latin America than Continental? On an average day, CO has about 135 departures to Mexico, Central America, South America, an
124 WorldTraveler : what is the basis for saying this? Any idea how far it will go. You are correct... I should say DL in ATL. I believe currently, CO is a few percentag
125 Post contains images HPAEAA : I think the decrease in capacity had a lot to do with the improving yields. Conx Traffic probably helps a little with low yield tickets, but like Mav
126 WorldTraveler : UA pulled the equivalent of less than 1 1/2 normally configured 757s. The real reason the transcon markets have turned around is because the pricing
127 HPAEAA : Currently service is relative in the eyes of the beholder, personally I'd assert that DL is substandard in my eyes, but that's me, and you assert tha
128 Avek00 : Must I be the only one who argues not from emotion-laden BS but rather with some facts? Delta's August 2007 Latin America ASMs: 1,187,088,000, incl. D
129 WorldTraveler : again, there are SPECIFIC guidelines that govern how revenue is split between segments on an itinerary regardless of whether the two flights are on on
130 Neo : Exceptional service? You gotta be kidding me right!!! Felipe, I would include LAX-GRU-GIG as well. The demand for West Coast - Brazil nonstop flights
131 LAXdude1023 : Which hub is bigger in terms of flights/destinations to Latin America, IAH or ATL?
132 WorldTraveler : I'll try and come up with an answer for you... it's worth asking. DL definitely has the advantage to deep S. America but CO has a large presence from
133 STT757 : From CO's latest Quarterly Report:
134 WorldTraveler : Based on Jan 08 schedules, here are breakdowns for CO’s hub at IAH and DL’s hub at ATL for South America, Central America, and the Caribbean. Flig
135 COflyerBOS : Do flights to Mexico not count as "Latin American" flying? If so, bump up IAH's service numbers since CO serves ACA, AGU, CUN, CUU, CME, CZM, DGO, GDL
136 WorldTraveler : the stats I provided include Mexico in Latin America.
137 LAXdude1023 : I did a break down of Destinations on CO at IAH and DL at ATL on Latin American Destinations (nonstop only and no Carribean destinations): CO at IAH:
138 Belizexp : DL don't fly to TGU you must mean RTB I also saw that CCS was missing from your list.
139 WorldTraveler : The general theme seems to be that CO has the advantage in the number of flights it has from IAH to central America while DL has more service to South
140 MAH4546 : There are only ten significant airports in Central America, and DL serves nine of them, all but Tegucigalpa. And seeing how poorly San Pedro Sula is
141 STT757 : CO has stated their intentions of having a third bank of departures to Central America from IAH, plenty of 737-800s and 737-900ERs coming onboard, lo
142 WorldTraveler : and the evidence you have for this assertion is....? STT, While these moves by CO would certainly help them, DL is adding flights from JFK which are
143 Lt-AWACS : And CO serves more cities around the world, which is something you don't want to hear. Same thing for the fact DL just got hit bad for on time and in
144 Commavia : And AA carries - by far - the most international passengers of any U.S. airline. And the hits just keep on coming. Delta could keep growing internati
145 STT757 : CO has been flying from EWR to Latin America for years: Bogota, Caracas, Lima, Guatemala City, San Jose, Panama City, San Salvador, Sao Paulo etc.. W
146 WorldTraveler : See, unlike some of you, I have no problems hearng what the competition is doing but I can also find plenty of statistics that DL is doing as good as
147 HPAEAA : Stats are all about the story you want to tell... Cite please...
148 ConcordeBoy : if that's the case, why do you think that is? I just find it interesting... seeing as MSY, an airport lacking service to even CUN; was able to suppor
149 MAH4546 : The market between the United States and Honduras is small and concentrated. The traffic is going primarily to Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Louisiana, Hou
150 WorldTraveler : Airline proration agreements are not public documents. If you are involved in airline revenue accouting (or an accounting firm that audits airlines),
151 MAH4546 : And that is the difference between DL and AA/CO. Some airlines, especially AA, look at the smaller picture - route by route - and want routes that ca
152 STT757 : Fact: CO serves the most International Destinations of any US Airline Fact: CO's 3rd Quarter results out performed DL's in every accepted measurement
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