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BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787 Part 2  
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4115 posts, RR: 90
Posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16979 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

Following on from the link below;

BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

As the previous thread has now over 300 replies we ask that you take into consideration members with dial up connections and the speed that they can access the initial thread.

From Airbus

British Airways to buy 12 Airbus A380 aircraft for long haul fleet
27 September 2007

British Airways will buy 12 Airbus A380 aircraft as part of the airlines’ long term fleet modernisation. The announcement marks the first time British Airways has selected to introduce Airbus aircraft for the company’s long haul fleet. The decision vindicates Airbus’ product strategy. The A380 is a key part of the solution for sustainable growth and eco efficiency in air transportation.

The aircraft will be powered by Rolls-Royce engines.


http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...09_27_british_airways_12_a380.html

From Boeing

Boeing Statement on British Airways Fleet Selection

SEATTLE, Sept. 27, 2007 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] is honored that British Airways has selected the 787 Dreamliner as a key element of its long-haul fleet renewal.

[snip]

"Boeing has been a supplier and partner to British Airways for more than 50 years. We are honored that British Airways has chosen to join the 787 family of operators," said Marlin Dailey, vice president of Sales for Europe, Russia and Central Asia, Boeing Commercial Airplanes.

Boeing looks forward to finalizing the contractual details of British Airways' selection.


http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2007/q3/070927b_nr.html

From Britsh Airways

Green light for aircraft orders

British Airways has today placed an order for 12 Airbus A380 and 24 Boeing 787 aircraft with options for a further seven Airbus A380s and 18 Boeing 787s. Both aircraft types will be powered by Rolls-Royce engines.

The new aircraft will replace 34 of the airline's longhaul fleet and will be delivered between 2010 and 2014. The order, including options, will give the airline the ability to grow its capacity by up to four per cent per year and the flexibility to tailor its future capacity growth in line with market conditions.


http://www.britishairways.com/travel/bapress/public/en_gb

Some relevent links to other Airliners.net discussions in relation to this order;

Can The 747-8 Be Successful?

BA's Next Fleet Decision: 2008-2009

BA A380 And JFK

Effect Of BA A 380 Order On Virgin

So as to not have too many threads some of those may be archived and redirected here and we ask that you continue the discssion in this thread. Thank you.


Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
249 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16945 times:

Since this was the last post on the old thread....

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 318):
Quoting Mariner (Reply 313):
I have no doubt that BA got a healthy discount - from both suppliers - and of course, it is possible that BA got launch customer rates.
But then it raises the question - what was Being offering on their deal? I have little doubt that Boeing would have given BA launch customer rates for the 7

Which begs the question, do both OEM's continue ad infinitum with the "launch customer rates"?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12284 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16914 times:
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Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
Which begs the question, do both OEM's continue ad infinitum with the "launch customer rates"?

Are you suggesting that launch customer discounts are a myth?  wink 

As a spotty youth I worked for a greengrocer who sold two grades of apples. Grade A apples cost 20% more than the Grade Bs. Of course, out the back, they all came out of the same box!



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2006 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16829 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2):
As a spotty youth I worked for a greengrocer who sold two grades of apples. Grade A apples cost 20% more than the Grade Bs. Of course, out the back, they all came out of the same box!

I'm sure any new purchaser of either the A380 ot 748i would get Grade B rates, whereas someone like BA would probably pay even less!



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16753 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2):
Are you suggesting that launch customer discounts are a myth?

I would have thought that at this time, both aircraft are well and truly 'launched' at this moment in time  Smile

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2):
As a spotty youth I worked for a greengrocer who sold two grades of apples. Grade A apples cost 20% more than the Grade Bs. Of course, out the back, they all came out of the same box!

Oooh, fraud Big grin How many decades back was this?


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12284 posts, RR: 47
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16730 times:
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Quoting Moo (Reply 4):
How many decades back was this?

More than I would care to admit!  old 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30437 posts, RR: 84
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 16637 times:
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Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
Which begs the question, do both OEM's continue ad infinitum with the "launch customer rates"?

Yes. Airlines talk with each other and industry analysts and those analysts post the data in public form.

However, where everyone keeps quiet on is the ancillaries - spares, training, EFBs, and such - that are part of each deal.

So when you see every 777 or every A380 go out the door at around 40% off list, that doesn't mean the final contract price is a straight 40% off. Those ancillaries have tremendous profit margins (hundreds of percent, most likely), so even cutting 40% off those still means each one is bringing in significant raw profit and those ancillaries can be scores - even hundreds - of millions, almost all of which is pure "cream".


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3527 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 16418 times:

I've just been thinking about the seating layout for the A380 in BA service. With BA flying a higher proportion of F & J seats than most airlines, might it be that the upper deck would be exclusively for F & J, with the lower for WT+ & WT.
This would allow the upper deck to be promoted as the "exclusive" area, and at airports with twin airbridges, allow F & J to board without having to go near the masses of WT. If this still didn't balance the load, they could always allow WT+ to enter the upper deck as well.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30437 posts, RR: 84
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 16274 times:
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That might not be a bad idea, Bongodog1964. It would help set BA apart from other airlines and even at airports with a single ramp, you could block access for the main deck to Door 1L and unload First and Business first so they could get off first and have first crack at C&I.  thumbsup 

User currently offlineBestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7062 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 16116 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
without having to go near the masses of WT.

Those riffraff.....  Smile



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineCaminito From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 16080 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):

I have a suggestion:

Often, when one of two related threads is frozen or deleted, to concentrate the discussion on the remaining one creates a difficulty because the posts which the poster wish to quote was deleted or is on the frozen thread. This is would at this moment be the case if " BA's Next Fleet Decision: 2008-2009" is frozen, at its content is factually mostly inseparable from this one.

It would be ideal if the content of the frozen or deleted thread (here only if it merits so) could be inserted in the remaining one.

I do not know if there is a way to do this easily, as the ordinal number of the Replies and consequently the cross-references would need to be adjusted.

Anyway, I would be grateful if you can look at this idea!

Thanks


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12284 posts, RR: 47
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 16019 times:
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Quoting Caminito (Reply 10):
It would be ideal if the content of the frozen or deleted thread (here only if it merits so) could be inserted in the remaining one.

The main reason for locking long threads (like the Part 1 of this thread) is that they take too long to load for users who are dialing up (I know, how 1990s!), so the concept of loading that content in the Part 2 won't work.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineRIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15890 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
With BA flying a higher proportion of F & J seats than most airlines, might it be that the upper deck would be exclusively for F & J

From my impression with what the proportion is, I'd rather expect the opposite deck allocation.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21458 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15863 times:

Quoting Moo (Reply 4):
I would have thought that at this time, both aircraft are well and truly 'launched' at this moment in time

They can't give the deepest discounts forever, or they would never make a profit. Airbus can't afford to sell A380s at launch prices forever, for example, or that break even number moves above 500. The 787 also has to make money for Boeing if they want to launch new programs or even derivatives of the 787 like the -10 or the 9LR.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 11):
so the concept of loading that content in the Part 2 won't work.

He just wants to be able to quote the content of the first into the second. But when it's locked, you can't click quote then copy it into the new thread. But you can just copy the text yourself, then write the code...  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21458 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15850 times:

Also, just to expand on the "if BA says it, it must be true" myth from the first thread.

BA said, over and over, they would not buy new aircraft until they moved to T5. They said they wouldn't announce future plans until moving to T5, because they want to work that out first.

So, are BA in T5 yet? Nope. Did they just order planes and talk about future plans? Yes. Hmm...  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9948 posts, RR: 96
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15803 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
Airbus can't afford to sell A380s at launch prices forever, for example, or that break even number moves above 500.

Indeed. What concerns me most for the 748i is the perception by many people that Boeing had much more "wiggle room" with the pricing of the 748i than Airbus did with the A380.
The dollar is very low..
The 748i is a low-cost derivative..
Boeing appear to be in a stronger financial position just now..
If those people's perception is correct............

My perception is that neither firm "gives" its planes away, and that there is ALWAYS a sound financial case for taking a contract at a particular price.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
The 787 also has to make money for Boeing

 checkmark 
I find it highly unlikely that Boeing needed to resort to launch discounting to secure the 787 contract.
That was won on merit, (size, specification and timing) IMO
It's unquestionably the right plane this time around.

Regards


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3527 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15751 times:

Quoting RIX (Reply 12):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
With BA flying a higher proportion of F & J seats than most airlines, might it be that the upper deck would be exclusively for F & J

From my impression with what the proportion is, I'd rather expect the opposite deck allocation.

That would never do. Here in the UK the working classes are always accomodated "downstairs"  gasp   snooty 


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30437 posts, RR: 84
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15671 times:
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Quoting Astuteman (Reply 15):
My perception is that neither firm "gives" its planes away, and that there is ALWAYS a sound financial case for taking a contract at a particular price.

And a very astute perception it would be, sir.  yes 


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24974 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15312 times:
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Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
Which begs the question, do both OEM's continue ad infinitum with the "launch customer rates"?

Like Astuteman, I very much doubt that Boeing gave the launch discount to BA for the 787, but most everyone agrees, BA got a discount of some kind.

I would be fairly sure Boeing did offer launch discount - or close to it - for the 748. There is not a long list of launch customers for the pax version.

As to Airbus, it may well be that they felt that they had to match the Boeing offer. I have heard all manner of rumors as to what BA is paying - from the probable to the silly.

It may also be that Airbus believed it was an order they had to get - and they got it.

I have never understood the relevance of these discussions. I know of one airline, an Airbus customer, who didn't convert additional options for more aircraft because Airbus wouldn't cut a deal - that's not a sentence you read often on a.net.  Smile

The reports of negotiations for aircraft sales have always seemed to me to resemble a Middle Eastern bazaar, where bargaining is the key.

But if anyone implies that BA only bought the A380 because it was a giveaway price, it presenta a fairly negative view of BA.

I feel much the same way about the "jingo-ism" debate.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15277 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Airlines talk with each other and industry analysts and those analysts post the data in public form.

I can't imagine that sir. Negotiated deals are HIGHLY confidential in every business I've ever worked in, and I've seen people sued, fired, and sent to jail in some serious cases for divulging deal specifics.

NS


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21458 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15225 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 15):
Indeed. What concerns me most for the 748i is the perception by many people that Boeing had much more "wiggle room" with the pricing of the 748i than Airbus did with the A380.

Totally. The 748i is not likely being strongly discounted. Boeing only need make it a bit more attractive than the A380, nothing more. And if it slows up A380 sales, or creates such confusion that airlines don't order, it helps Boeing. The demand for the 748F will be strong for many years to come, so the 748i is less of a "loss" for them. The A380F is stillborn for the time being, so Airbus must sell A380s in pax trim ASAP.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 15):
I find it highly unlikely that Boeing needed to resort to launch discounting to secure the 787 contract.

I do believe that they had already worked out pricing, discounted heavily but not launch pricing, just like they already worked out delivery dates in 2010, even though the line is "sold out" into 2013.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30437 posts, RR: 84
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15005 times:
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Quoting Gigneil (Reply 19):
I can't imagine that sir. Negotiated deals are HIGHLY confidential in every business I've ever worked in, and I've seen people sued, fired, and sent to jail in some serious cases for divulging deal specifics.

I should probably be more clear. The absolute specifics of each deal (especially ancillaries) would be kept quiet. But analysts and airlines can read airline group financial reports and glean data to at least have a ballpark on what is being offered by the customers. They are not going in blind.


User currently offlineRIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 14929 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 16):
Quoting RIX (Reply 12):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
With BA flying a higher proportion of F & J seats than most airlines, might it be that the upper deck would be exclusively for F & J

From my impression with what the proportion is, I'd rather expect the opposite deck allocation.

That would never do. Here in the UK the working classes are always accomodated "downstairs"

- well, BA FIRST on 747s looks to be an exception  Smile... Indeed, on BA 744s 4 premium cabins take more space than 2 WT+/WT ones. "Working class" downstairs would mean plenty of coach class seating (even if half of it goes to WT+), which does not look to be a BA model.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24974 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 14887 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
But analysts and airlines can read airline group financial reports and glean data to at least have a ballpark on what is being offered by the customers.

Um, yes - and no. Or rather - ballpark-ish.

I know of cases where different analysts arrived at quite different prices, by some margin, that airlines have paid for aircraft, all based supposedly on the same available data.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCaminito From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 14823 times:

I am trying here to qualify the actions of BA.
SUMMARY
------------
1) Which is the significance of naming the B777 and seemingly excluding the B748i as competitors for the 2nd. Round? Is BA drifting away from future VLA use?
2)) Why they chose to limit the order, letting open the door for a 2nd. Round?
3) Which are the implications of the 12 A380 order?
4) Was the A380 order influenced by BA external considerations? [/i][/b]
5) Timing of the deliveries of this 1st and of orders/deliveries of the 2nd Round and consequences on the aircraft selection for 2nd. Round) [/i][/b]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) [/i] Which is the significance of naming the B777 and seemingly excluding the B748i as competitors for the 2nd. Round? Is BA drifting away from future VLA use??[/i]
a) It is very interesting to see that BA, as already noticeable at Cathay, and further by the lack of mention of the B748i, seem to drift away from the use of VLA, except on a few routes with extreme high pax and/or airport saturation
This implies that BA intends to cover the vast majority of the B744 routes with somewhat smaller 350 pax planes and in case that the pax volume so justifies, increase the frequency or add a smaller B787-8 or 9
b) If this tendency becomes general, the forecast of a VLA duplication in 20 years will prove totally wrong.

2) [/i]Why they chose to limit the order, letting open the door for a 2nd.
Round?[/i]

a) Obviously, basing on what is said above in 1), given the still not defined situation of the B787-10X, A350-1000 and B777-300ER upgrade, they need for clarification of these issues before ordering.
b) But in case that they finally come to the conviction that 350 pax aircraft are too small for an important number of missions, IMO the B748i will become again a leading alternative.

3) Which are the implications of the 12 A380 order?
Even if it constitutes the first new customer order in 2 years, which is positive, its limited size, similar as in case of LH and AF, shows clearly that these extremely experienced airlines consider this aircraft adequate only for a relatively small percentage of the present VLA need estimations (see also 1b.)
This would mean that the break-even figure, indicated by Airbus ¡°clearly above 400¡±, probably 500-600, is not achievable.
It goes without saying that it constitutes also bad new for the B748i, even if softened by the fact that this relatively low cost derivative could break even solely with the cargo version and by the said in 2b. applied to any airline.

4) Was the A380 order influenced by BA external considerations?
a) The answer is a clear YES, as foreseen by me and other, in spite flames by some A-netters
The same A-netters accept without protesting that BA has a preference (other parameters being equal) for the British RR (even if they accept GE engines as the large quantity their B777-200ER proves), but seem not to be able to accept such preference for other British components as for the A380 and more important, to avoid
that the French-German lead EADS/Airbus pulls manufactures and jobs out of the UK!
b) Notwithstanding, as the decision between the A380 and B748i was nearly a draw, BA does not have any negative consequence by the purchase of the A380, which is adequate for their needs (and probably was very low priced)

5) [ Timing of the deliveries of this 1st and of orders/deliveries of the 2nd Round and consequences on the aircraft selection for 2nd.
Round)

As supported by my Replies 10 and 41 on the thread °BA's next fleet decision
2008-2009" [url] BA's Next Fleet Decision: 2008-2009 (by Revelation Sep 27 2007 in Civil Aviation)#last [/url]
the aircraft ordered in the second round must be delivered 2013/2014, as BA will be
not able to operate later B744 with fuel burn possibly 40% higher then the
competing models then available. Therefore, the second round aircraft must be
available by then. As the A350-1000 cannot be so, it will be out of competition.
Boeing would be able to supply the B787-10X in time, but it is not sure if the would
be willing to do so, which would limit the choice to the B777-300ER and eventually
an upgrade of this model!


25 Mariner : Sorry, but that is not a "clear yes" to me, althoughti might - might - be a muddy yes. mariner
26 Post contains images Ikramerica : Fantastic summary. I don't play the Respected User list game, and haven't added anyone in a long while, but since yoy are new, I'm gonna give you a v
27 Mariner : Not to me. At least in the BBC interview, Mr. Walsh made his "British is best" statement expressly clear. That BA had examined all the availaible eng
28 Post contains images Astuteman : Or at least away from the 748i........ If BA need a bigger plane than the 773ER/A350-1000/787HGW, they will HAVE the A380..... Or they don't want to/
29 Post contains images Ikramerica : It's still political. I can't remember the last time I heard a non-British CEO state in an engine choice or aircraft choice statement or interview th
30 Post contains images SEPilot : From studying the charts posted on this forum, that is apparently no longer the case. The most efficient per passenger is the 77W, by quite a margin.
31 Astuteman : Or not, perhaps ??????? Perhaps it needs re-calibrating to Anglo-Irish humour.... Regards
32 David_itl : Funny how some people say that Aiibus is too dependent on one airline for the bulk of its orders, but the minute that they get a "blue chip" airline t
33 Mariner : Again, not to me. I don't generally accuse people of being liars without some solid evidence to support the accusation. I worked in Hollywood for twe
34 RIX : The biggest reason is they don't need the capacity when smaller airplanes with same range are available. Be 744 still the most efficient, they'd need
35 Scorpio : 'Obviously' only to you and a few other Americans. Seriously, you've been whining about this for a week now, in half a dozen different threads. It's
36 Stitch : Perhaps they feel the 747-8I has no role in their future fleet plans? If it was, I doubt they would have secured nine options. Perhaps they have deci
37 Stitch : It likely is as good as Boeing claims it is. The A380 is just better.
38 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..you meant "better for BA's needs"....
39 EI321 : But Boeing claims 10% lower fuel burn per seat than the A380. Its nothing like that in real world figures
40 Caminito : As you only quote my self-questions, I assume that you have read also my answers, which I do not repeat here: Obviously. : I see only 7, not that it i
41 Post contains images JoeCattoli : They didn't state that, at least not clearly.. I have really a hard time understanding how the people enjoy that much seeing conspiracy theories ever
42 Post contains images Stitch : And SQ's. And QF's. Looks like EK's, too. And AF's. Might not be for TG's, then again, maybe it is. Mainly because we don't have any real-world figur
43 GDB : Are we STILL on about this mythical political order? Guess what, Willie Walsh is known for his sense of humour, as part of his general informality (wh
44 Mutu : Sorry but this is just NOT acceptable. You can drum up all the jingoism you want...BA didnt buy american, Britain tuirns it back on the USA, Britain
45 GDB : I agree Moo. Give it up, for god's sake. (Or provide proof, and a discredited report in a paper that told a bunch of serious lies about BA on safety l
46 Post contains images Lightsaber : First, this thread is taking an interesting A vs. B tone. I'd like to first note the engines. On the A380, RR is clearly the preferred engine. (Sorry
47 FRNT787 : Like many others, I too was expecting (and hoping for) a 747-8i order, I thought it would be a great fit for BA. BUT, I do not believe there was any,
48 Caminito : I think that by saying that the models to be considered are B787, A350 and B777, non of them a VLA, is clear enough! this mot the How do you know tha
49 Post contains images PM : "Interesting"? Sadly predictable and unedifying, I fear. The number of customers speaks for itself. And they all or mostly seem to have been won on m
50 Post contains images Mariner : My sense of humor is much too strong for that. mariner
51 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...but not for LH.... ...and probably a few others too hopefully.... ...I do not find this order to be "political" either, but hey, if they can get c
52 Post contains images PM : Correct. It is "too hopeful".
53 Post contains images FRNT787 : Just like there is nothing wrong with airlines like American ordering from Boeing. The A380 was chosen because Willie Walsh liked it better.
54 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ....we'll see what happens when some B748I orders come through...
55 PM : It almost beggars belief that there won't be further 747-8i customers but it appears to be a programme with its back to the wall. It's hard to see ma
56 Mikesbucky : I think this may indicate the last BA order for Boeing for a long time to come. The next order will be for 744 and 777 replacements and the 787 doesn'
57 Post contains links and images Zeke : If am afraid to say, like you were clearly incorrect on your BA analysis prior to the order (i.e. claiming BA market was shrinking), the post order a
58 M27 : How did the A380 appear 2 yrs ago? Did it beggar belief that it would receive many orders? Oh wait, that seems to be true, so maybe you are correct!
59 Kaitak : Am I the only person to be surprised by the inclusion of the 787-8? The -9 doesn't surprise me at all and ultimately, with early 777s to be replaced,
60 Caminito : Let me say first that I am happy with the friendly way you address these issues, even if you disagree with me widely. But I must repeat that I never
61 Post contains images Astuteman : I repeat my view that's it's an excellent aircraft, and the right move by Boeing at this time. Wrong thread, but I don't think it's going to die, par
62 Post contains images Swallow : A whale on A.net A big elephant or A bus? I am bashed But not crushed Villified But not petrified I am the new queen of the skies And will take the Qu
63 Scotron11 : I'd like to first note the engines. On the A380, RR is clearly the preferred engine. Sad (Sorry PM, but we'll be voting for opposite engines here.) F
64 Zeke : That is nice to hear, I come here to have healthy mature discussions about aviation with other aviation enthusiasts. The majority if BAs longhaul mar
65 Post contains images PADSpot : Very nice! ... An aviation poet ...
66 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..what's interesting is even given the "lack of range" so-to-speak for the current proposal for the -10, besides Australia, it will basically be able
67 Mutu : Also let us not forget the 4 777 frames coming in 2008/09 as additional capacity quite independent of this initial order. (Although I am assuming the
68 Art : It's a mystery to me why Walsh should feel guilty about ordering what is considered to be in the best interests of BA. Airbus was judged to offer the
69 Post contains images AirbusA6 : I agree BA's order was completely political, they were forced to buy those US built 787s as recompense for the British troops pulling out of Iraq, aft
70 Post contains links Columba : Not the end of the 747-8 with BA ??: "As its fleet of 57 Boeing 747s is retired from service, analysts say BA is likely to replace many of them either
71 Post contains links and images Lumberton : Let me advance an even more radical theory: they got a great deal on the planes they wanted. http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topic...sion=1&template_i
72 PlaneHunter : Even if politicians had "talked" to them about the order - where's the proof BA actually acted as "ordered" and didn't just go for the best suited en
73 Columba : I am waiting for his posts when LH and AF will make their decision between 787 and A350. Then we got to hear all this stuff about politics all over a
74 Scorpio : Sounds more like a case of der Spiegel not being able to see the difference between a 7 and a 4. BA indeed said they were looking at three planes, bu
75 AirbusA6 : " target=_blank>http://www.spiegel.de/international/....html Oh no it hasn't!!! BA has announced it is studying the 787, A350 and the 77W! No mention
76 Zeke : I think that paragraph is referring to their annual report, BA after this order will now have 37 not 57 747s to replace. What they dont say is that t
77 Stitch : Nope. I've been advocating her since BA first announced they wanted to replace the 767. BA themselves noted that the 787-8 had great flexibility to s
78 Jacobin777 : ...actually its up around 20% from 5 years ago and about 7.5% from 3 years ago....
79 Scorpio : Disagree all you want, but the article in Der Spiegel said BA has confirmed it is looking at the 747-8. Fact is, BA has confirmed no such thing.
80 Zeke : About 330 million at the moment, 01/02 price was about 257 million. Look at page 7 of their last annual report, it says they are. "The Company also l
81 VV701 : Are you simply mischief making or are you speaking with a lack of knowledge? "So, are BA in T5 yet? Nope." Well, actually, yes. They have been in T5
82 JoeCattoli : You'll understand that these are aircraft they didn't order yet, so they are still examining them. That doesn't exclude new VLA orders. But hey, beli
83 Post contains images Baroque : Oh I don't know Lightsaber, why not link the two, it would not be more speculative than some proposals in this thread. I am sure you are correct that
84 Post contains links Caminito : I agree that "Der Spiegel" isn't an example of reliability, but as it says, this article is a transcription from "Business Week"(BW) , a much more se
85 Post contains links AirbusA6 : Try the British Aiways web site! "British Airways will continue to consider the most suitable aircraft to replace its remaining B747-400 aircraft and
86 GDB : Firstly, another trash the non specialist media I'm afraid, Der Speigel is talking out of it's arse, the new 4 engine type is and will be, just A380.
87 Jacobin777 : ..you are correct, I didn't taken into account of the dollar depreciating so much against the Euro the past couple of years.........which actually ma
88 Scorpio : No, it says they were. The part you quoted deals with the replacement of the 767s and the oldest 744s, i.e. the part which was concluded a few days a
89 Kaitak : Aren't we getting a bit sidetracked as to whether the airline will consider the 747-8i or not? Personally, even if it wasn't mentioned specifically by
90 GDB : AAARRGGH! It wasn't mentioned specifically because now A380 is coming, 748-8 is out of the running at BA. The choice of the large aircraft has now bee
91 Post contains links Zeke : Go to http://www.britishairways.com/travel/bapress/public/en_gb and click on the press release "Green light for aircraft orders"
92 PlanesNTrains : It would seem somewhat perplexing why BA would choose a 77W in the next round of orders, when the A350XWB - specifically the -1000 - would appear to b
93 Post contains images Astuteman : But if Boeing do, I see no reason why they couldn't make those "new" products equally appealing (as well as having much commonality with the 788's an
94 Caminito : Thanks. I had seen it, but as no name nor BA logo appears on the top, I didn't realize that this came from BA itself As these does not seem a simple
95 SimProgrammer : Several years ago I suggested on this very forum that the gentlemans agreement between DL & CO & Boeing to have an all-Boeing was politically motivat
96 Post contains images FRNT787 : If the A350-1000 does turn out to have the incredible economics they are promising (Hope it will, but on occasion marketing and sales can come ahead
97 Post contains links and images Mariner : For the A380, there's an interesting comment in this Forbes article: http://www.forbes.com/markets/2007/0...927markets27.html?feed=rss_markets "The A3
98 Shenzhen : Interesting. I would bet the other way. With the absence of an A350 in the current order book, the 787 is probably a likely winner in any next round
99 Caminito : I would be grateful if somebody, in a comprehensible form for a non-specialized engineer, could lay out the main reasons why, at least on paper, the
100 Post contains images Lumberton : Radical also means "extreme". Sorry you missed the sarcasm.... [Edited 2007-09-29 23:20:24]
101 PlanesNTrains : Agreed. Part of that, though, will be the additional competition from carriers that also have ordered the 787, and who also intend to open secondary
102 Post contains images Mariner : Yes, indeed. It went right over my head. mariner
103 Post contains links and images Philzh : Not strictly related to this thread, but loosely: a small gaffe in todays Sydney Morning Herald article about BA and the A380: Guess they just conveni
104 RIX : - the point is, that none of ordered/considered aircraft is a very appropriate 744 replacement. Well, other than 773, which doesn't have much chances
105 WingedMigrator : Who has ever claimed that? I think they're basically going to be a wash (within a few percent of each other)... and the answer really depends on what
106 FRNT787 : I also cannot help you there, I do not see where the great effenciency leap between the 787 and the A350 models would lay, I can really only grasp wh
107 Caminito : Thanks for sharing your thoughts. See my Reply to RIX Very well said. Let me add my thoughts: It seems a foreseeable fact that in the future, experie
108 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ....I just might have to disagree with you there friend....ostensibly it seems as if the B787-10 must might be able to hit the 7700nm mark Boeing giv
109 PM : "Gas guzzlers" came up in another thread a month or so ago. It's a pretty meaningless term. At best it's highly relative. It appears to be based on t
110 Post contains images WingedMigrator : No disagreement here... I was just saying that if they simply stretched the 787-9, without other drastic redesign, the range would be ~7200 nm. That'
111 Caminito : You would be right, had this not be already discussed on his same thread between Ikramerica and I. The Fuel burn alone of a B744 compared with a A350
112 AirNZ : I find your post interesting in that you always call the 'politics' card when something doesn't suit your theories/wishes. In many instances you clai
113 Post contains links Zeke : Myself and others like Senior VP-Corporate Fleet at Lufthansa Nico Buchholz would disagree with you... "According to Buchholz, the 30 A340-300s are e
114 Scotron11 : Of course not. It depends of the price. If today an airline buys a A330 delivered in 2009 when they need it, because it is not able to receive a B787
115 Post contains links and images Zeke : While no doubt the A330 is being sold at a lower price than the 787, it far from being given away, or "very low", it is a design that having its best
116 Kbdude : On part 1 of this thread I saw that WINGS (reply 50) mentioned that Airbus has 186 orders for the A380. I checked the Airbus orders page and they have
117 Zeke : I think 1xVIP, 8 commitments from EK, and 12 commitments from BA.
118 PADSpot : While the chart has some truth in it, one has to say that the COC advantage of the B787 can be realized at any time while the A330 revenue advantages
119 Zeke : The notes on the top LHS say the cargo and pax LFs are 50% for the capacity above the 788. It also assumes the 788 is 100% full LF for pax and cargo
120 Jacobin777 : ....I agree about the BA part, but in fairness to BA, Boeing still hasn't finished determining the "final specs" to the carriers..even a few % points
121 LY777 : A shame BA didn't order the 748. BTW, I thought they would order at least 30 787s...
122 Scotron11 : BTW, I thought they would order at least 30 787s... But they do have options on a futher 18
123 Caminito : : Of course, each case is different: In the case of LH you cite, there are between other: 1) The A340-300 is only 1 generation behind the B787/A350,
124 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ....that chart which you bring up from Airbus is quite biased (obviously, Boeing does the same thing).. The chart shows the A332 @ 247 seats..but tho
125 Caminito : The favorable today's residual value of the E330 is due because it is the only game in town where the B777 is too big, until the B787 becomes availab
126 PADSpot : Even a stand-off between those figures would be a catastrophe. EK (2-class)-278 KLM-251 Etihad(2-class)-262 Jetstar-303 LTU/AirBerlin(2-class) - 323
127 Jacobin777 : ...ok, I'll buy that, but then we would need more comparative Boeing numbers.....carriers such as LTU/AirBerlin would probably put in more seats on B
128 Post contains images Lumberton : And who would buy the 787? As Zeke noted, the A330 is priced lower and would represent tremendous value if there were no advantages to buying the new
129 Post contains images Zeke : Sarcasm by the bucket-load !!! The main advantage, replace clapped out 767s
130 Columba : Doubtful they will introduce a new business class soon.
131 Post contains images PADSpot : I think it would be more reasonable to compare the floor space between the A332 and B788 as it will be proportional to the later ratio of the number
132 Gigneil : The A350F as a niche aircraft, particularly vis a vis the 787F, is a completely impossible statement to rationalise. NS
133 Stitch : Yet Airbus Aficionados often point to the fact that the A350 trailed the 787 so Airbus can improve on the 787 benchmark specifications, so it stands
134 Post contains images RIX : - well, not a shame, they do what they believe they need to do . But Club World on "private jet" upper deck will be badly missed. Still, it's at leas
135 Post contains links Lumberton : Here is an interesting comparison of residual values: http://www.leeham.net/filelib/ScottsColumn071007_3.pdf The A330-200 and 763ER aren't all that f
136 GDB : RIX, but our A380's will have an 'upper deck' too of course, just that it's much, much bigger! Being serious, I expect 1st to be at the front of the l
137 Post contains images Stitch : His numbers are a good deal lower for the A332 and a good deal higher for the 763ER then what I have from Aircraft Value News, for whatever that is w
138 Post contains images RIX : - that's the whole point, nothing special! Just a 340 put on top of 747 ... Seriously, while Business class on small upper deck is way less special a
139 Rheinbote : Does that mean a 787 is sold for 90-100 million on average?
140 Sbworcs : With regards to discounting my job entails analysising customers and their potential spend based on requested discounts from the sales team. I look at
141 Caminito : Agreed! Where or how can we get the floor space data? Well, lets hope that Airbus will define the A350-10 soon and not keep making changes. Seriously
142 Stitch : $105 million for a 787-8 is about right based on an average 35% discount off an average $162 million list.
143 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : I don't foresee the 748i in the BA fleet at this time. It may happen, and I would be very happy, but I'm not counting on it. Well, the options would
144 PM : I'm trying to understand this. Are you implying that BA didn't inform Boeing that the 747-8i was out of the running and left them to work it out from
145 Wsp : Why would Airbus stop optimizing the design before design freeze? I don't think what you "hope" above is in the best interest of Airbus.
146 Post contains images RIX : - yep. These 18 options give enough flexibility for the "far beyond that" from your post. As for "still a chance for 748" - OK, it may be put this wa
147 Zeke : Someone got side tracked, I was talking about the A330F/A330PF, A350F in my view could replace the 777F/MD-11F for range and payload (not sure about
148 Post contains images WAH64D : Pulling British troops out of Iraq? Tell that to my unit, we go back to Basra in November. Boeing really should address Y3 as a priority. The lack of
149 Caminito : My argument does not hinges if Boeing will do it. I only stated that IF they wish, the COULD do it and sin this case their chances would be great. As
150 Post contains images RIX : None of 787F and 350F exists even on paper. None of their "obsolete predecessors" (330F/777F) is even built! How come one of them is already inferior
151 PlanesNTrains : I would think that, with the pending manufacturing/certification pressures of the 787, combined with the "moving target" of the A350WXB capabilities,
152 Caminito : From where the $ 162M come from?? The Boeing Webside price list, as I wrote, says 146-151.5M, so averaging a discount of 35% the net would be $ 95M A
153 Stitch : Y3 will be significantly more expensive then the 787HGW - at least double. Even assuming every 777, A340, and A333 sold will never be replaced by a 7
154 RIX : We don't know what 787-10 already considered by BA really is. We don't know what and how do they compare and decide, looking at 350, 773 and 78A. We
155 MCIGuy : I think it was naive to think BA wouldn't order the A380, especially when so many competitors did. I also think their starting a large 787 fleet gives
156 Post contains images WAH64D : Stitch, I can't help but think that if what you say comes to fruition, Boeing have already handed the BA B772ER replacement order to Airbus. I don't
157 Scotron11 : In my opinion, the next order will consist of B788/9 and A350-1000. B773 has very little chance and B748i might as well not exist. All in my opinion
158 Post contains images PM : I don't often find myself agreeing with you but I think you're dead right here!
159 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : ...I was only making a comment in reference to PADSpot... ... ....that's a better metric to use..... .....very interesting... ....we do have fellow A
160 Post contains images WAH64D : Thanks PM. I actually agree with 90% of your posts, your RR related stuff is legendary. In the next BA contest, I think there is too much being made
161 Post contains images Stitch : Yes they will, but it will still be less - in both areas - then going forward with Y3 - especially if Y3 is just a "CFRP 777". Unless Boeing can make
162 JoeCanuck : I must be missing something. With the 350 design freeze still a year away, how is it any more defined than the 787-10? It's only been weeks since airb
163 Caminito : I do not know how many times I must repeat this. I did not write that the A350-1000 will EIS 2017/2018, but that substantial deliveries would not be
164 Post contains images WAH64D : This ties up with my point though. I agree that Boeing will have models for a number of different contingencies on their hands. What I mean is that t
165 FlyingAY : All the important specifications for an airline are defined already. That's how they can already sell it to customers. I believe AY won't give a rats
166 Post contains images RIX : - I don't know which abstract "a.net first thought" you are talking about . Seriously, how much time since 77A roll-out did it take Boeing to build 7
167 Scbriml : Yes, but the -10 that Boeing can offer tomorrow is not the -10 that many airlines have said they might be interested in. So that's at least 6 months
168 Caminito : FlyingAY is right. The main specification of the B787-10, 10X or 11 are not complete, by the simple reason that Boeing is trying to find an optimum b
169 Stitch : Airbus has guaranteed certain specifications, while Boeing hasn't. So that puts the A350 one-up on the 787HGW, though Airbus now needs to meet those
170 Post contains images RIX : My "that's OK, 787-10 can be offered tomorrow, 787-10/-11HGW - in half a year " was not a base of serious analysis of what exactly can be offered on O
171 Caminito : If a manufacturer offers a widely still not designed and defined aircraft by guaranteeing a satisfactory performance to the customer (both Boeing and
172 GDB : As I have said, elsewhere perhaps, before, no way is BA going to order a second large 4 engined type, they won't be getting that many of the A380's an
173 Post contains images Astuteman : In an article entitled "BA finally signs up for the A380 Club" (not loaded into 'Flightglobal yet) , FI quotes some comments from BA regarding the log
174 Post contains links and images Caminito : Quoting Astuteman (Reply 173): Some fair use quotes:- (Quoting Robert Boyle, BA's commercial director) "The numbers ultimately came out in favour of A
175 VV701 : British politics are very different to American politics primarily because we have two completely different democratic systems. Without getting two b
176 WingedMigrator : Perhaps because in the long term, it would amount to an additional aircraft type in the fleet. (Remember, the 744's are being retired, so any fleet c
177 Swallow : Pardon my ignorance. The GEnx on the 748i is a newer design than the Trent 900 (I assume QC 0.5 quoted is for the T900), so how come the A380 is quie
178 FlyingAY : Gee, what an educative post you just made, sir! Good reading for us Europeans too. When I had read this, I just had to scroll back up and see who wro
179 Stitch : The sheer size and lift of the A380's wings might allow a lower power setting on arrival?
180 Sbworcs : Not picking on you particularly but I find it quite amusing on here that people "know" what is going on behing closed doors with A & b - for all we n
181 Post contains images Astuteman : The A380 is, quite obviously, THE most advanced passenger aircraft flying today. I believe that, overall, this is not something that will be changed
182 Post contains images Scbriml : No offence taken. My postulations on the 787-10 are simply those drawn from what has been made public. Boeing has talked about the -10 as a logical s
183 Caminito : Makes sense, but this is valid also for the A350 totally, even more so, as at least the personnel with the B748i would have the previous experience w
184 SJCRRPAX : This is another great post of yours as usual VV701. When Americans say BA was influenced by political pressure, perhaps a better term might be that B
185 Gigneil : Stitch is right, the plane has amazing low-speed handling performance, but beyond that a large part of an airliner's noise profile is air rushing ove
186 Bongodog1964 : This is where the UK definitely differs from the US. I could never ever see BA flying a plane with "Proudly All Airbus" painted on the side. he only
187 Post contains images Stitch : I would like to think it's because the 787 fit their needs. I'd like to think we're not that petty, but after the "Freedom Fries" BS...
188 EI321 : Perhaps it was pointed out above, but the A350 is a clean sheet design, wheras the 787HGW is not.
189 Post contains images Stitch : "Clean sheet design" is an overused marketing gimmick. The 787LGW herself was a "clean sheet design" so, by extension, so should the HGW model. Plus
190 Post contains images Dougloid : Well yes, of course it's a clean sheet design because that's all they've got is a sheet of paper.
191 Post contains images Stitch : It's great folks want to support one team or another, but they should not let that support blind them to logic, at least, if not reality. Airbus looke
192 JRDC930 : IMHO, the 748i is not ever going to serve in BA's fleet. the 380's they have will be enough for the high density routes, with more 787/350's and or mo
193 Post contains images Baroque : At last a post that starts to explain some of the cognitive dissonance that has been so abundant in this and related threads. Your next task VV is to
194 Post contains images PADSpot : In fact at some European bankruptcy legislations are more aimed at protecting the creditor and not so much the respective company. The German system
195 Gkirk : Do GE not maintain BA 747s and 777 engines at CWL or something?
196 XT6Wagon : Currently on planes the size of the 747 and A380 the landing noise issue is from them punching huge dirty holes in the air. The A380 has more effort
197 Bongodog1964 : Not sure on this; but I note that the order for the A380 & B787 engines is under a "total care" package which includes spares and overhauls, thus the
198 Post contains images VV701 : But not all of BA's fleet are RR powered. And BA are equally proud to display the GE90 logo as they are that of RR: Now having shown these photos I a
199 Post contains images Maersk737 : Cheers Peter
200 AirbusA6 : I wish all airlines would have a badge on the engine, especially where airlines have mixed engine fleets, so that we know what's powering us!
201 WAH64D : My biggest hope is that Airbus will remember the really basic things like fasteners that allow the aircraft to be built in an airworthy manner in the
202 Post contains images RIX : - we do, man, we do. If one of us says, "liar", respond to him, and explain him why he is so wrong. Don't generalize to "Americans don't even recogni
203 Post contains links Lumberton : New info, and more proof--as if any more was needed--of BA's business accumen in driving home a great deal. Scott Hamilton reports in his latest colu
204 Post contains links Kaitak : I tend to agree with you here, JRDC930; there's an interesting article in this week's Flight ... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...e-ba-long-hau
205 VV701 : I apologise for offending you. But I still deem it offensive when individuals call others "liars" with only inuendo to back their allegations up.
206 Stitch : I have been told from folks with direct knowledge of the deal that QF also paid around $125 million each for their 20 A388s (though this does include
207 Post contains links Lumberton : Just checked the link and the column has been modified, deleting any reference to the price BA paid. http://www.leeham.net/filelib/ScottsColumn_1_100
208 GDB : VV701, thanks for that outstanding, sensible, clear headed and true post. As were are linking from Flight International , check out the BA A380 Photos
209 Kaitak : Interesting to note, the other day, that the Tories have withdrawn what they have admitted were "barmy" policies, including a freeze on airport expans
210 Post contains links GDB : I cannot see us ever being a customer for a bigger A380, what we are getting is at the upper limit of what we'd ever use. For years now, it has been s
211 Post contains images Caminito : " target=_blank>http://www.leeham.net/filelib/Scotts...7.pdf I think it is time to summarize the situation candidly and basing on facts, where not pos
212 Kaitak : Caminito, I have to hold up my hand for that one; I'm assuming you mean the A389, not the A359 ... The A389 is not, of course, defined at this stage,
213 Caminito : Yes, of course. Thanks for the correction. eess Do you think that Airbus has design staff to spare to address such development, considering that a su
214 Philzh : Agreed, but the "compatible paper" still would have to come first; let's hope Airbus learned their lesson here.
215 Post contains images Mariner : That's funny. And that's funnier. Within twenty four hours of the BA order being announced, I heard - supposedly from "reliable sources" - remarkable
216 Stitch : Plus the "per frame" price wouldn't include all the ancillaries which, for a new type like the A388, likely push into the tens (if not hundreds) of mi
217 VV701 : Do not forget the 744. BA's youngest frame is now 7.5 years old and they kept some of their 741s and 742s in service for more than 27 years. So, at l
218 RIX : From what you say, it's looks to be much more than just handful. Then, assuming 380 will hardly appear on LHR-JFK route (at least as of what is said t
219 Theginge : I would be surprised if BA order over and above their options for the A380. Think about the UK - Australia route in a few years time. BA, Singapore, E
220 Azhobo : Will be interesting to see if the "Airbus orders for September" book the BA order as firm, especiallysince Boeing did not at their 2 October web site
221 GDB : Theginge, the answer is that air travel will grow, BA factored into their choice of types and how many of each, a 4% yearly growth rate from delivery
222 Stitch : There will be plenty of passengers - all you need to do is lower fares. Whether those fares will make money...
223 Jacobin777 : BA state they are going to be replacing B744 routes with A380's but will be looking to be replacing the other B744s with either the B773ER or A350-X..
224 Wsp : From the BA press release:
225 JoeCanuck : T5 not withstanding, I shudder when I think of all those extra passengers that will have to be crammed through Heathrow in the coming years. Hopefully
226 Post contains images JRDC930 : Boy it looks like boeing made a mistake in not adding capacity to the 748i. Every one seems too perceive a need for the 550 seat market and nothing fo
227 Stitch : They tried with the 747-X Stretch a few years back (which would have held around 525), but there was even less interest then the 747-8I.
228 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..yah..I know, but I'm still trying to figure out how that adds 4% capacity/year....going from a B744 to B773ER/A350 is certainly a downguage in capa
229 VV701 : Of course what BA have not said is the timescale for the retirement of its fleet of 763s and the 20 744s that this order was meant to replace. If you
230 Post contains images Astuteman : They did, though, when they increased the length to match the 748F I'm guessing that competitive engine availability would have been a big factor her
231 TristarSteve : Somewhere in this thread is a statement that the four B772 options have been rep[laced by B787 orders. BA has 4 B772 on order but no options left. I
232 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...your post certainly makes sense. ....I guess having a clearer picture (i.e. what they plan on doing in terms of fleet removal/retirement) would he
233 Stitch : I think it is the only, myself.
234 VV701 : I do not think we will ever get that clarity until the actual event. By planning in advance but, as time goes by, adjusting those plans to match actu
235 GDB : To clarify on the outstanding 777 options, BA has said that they have been replaced by 787's. So just the four ordered in Feb, will be coming to BA. J
236 BestWestern : I see the future BA long haul fleet as follows: A380 - fleet of between 20 and 30 773 - fleet of between 20 and 30 772 787
237 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...that is sort of what I am expecting too... ..even though there would be no more B747's in the fleet I think that would be realistic....
238 GDB : My understanding, from within BA-though it was also alluded in this weeks Flight International , is that the next phase of the longhaul replacement pr
239 Post contains images WingedMigrator : Not unless the 773ER is significantly updated. The A350-1000 is currently promised to fly the same missions (i.e. same payload, same range) using ~18
240 XT6Wagon : Its interesting to see how many people defend the A340 as a great plane, yet turn around and say the A350 will immediately and completely remove the 7
241 Post contains images WingedMigrator : so one could reasonably infer that whatever the 773ER may or may not have done to the A346 in the marketplace, the A350-1000 will do to the 773ER. Ar
242 GDB : I think a better analogy to A350 vs 777, is maybe , what happened with B767 vs A330. Or maybe not, it's way too early to say, if they do see A350-1000
243 RIX : I'd still say, it's rather 777 vs 340, as 330 had LD3 advantage vs 767... As for 777 modification - what exactly can be done, both "reasonably expensi
244 Stitch : Which would work out pretty well for Boeing for, despite popular airliners.net myth, the A330 enjoyed a 3:2 sales advantage over the 767 since the fo
245 Scotron11 : This has 787-10, A350-1000 (maybe also the -900) and B777-300ER in contention, though BA have said that they see 'developments' of the -300ER as what
246 JoeCanuck : As far as I understand it, a very large portion of the 350-1000's purported fuel savings over the 777 is from more fuel efficient engines. Somebody me
247 Stitch : It can't happen because Rolls doesn't have the Trent 8115 certified and Boeing can't put it on a 77W even if it was without GE's blessing.
248 GDB : OK Stich, I'll re-phrase and cite A330 vs B767 outside of the US domestic market, or even just with new customers anywhere since A330, which is what I
249 Columba : The A340 is a great plane, the 777 is also a great plane and has a better fuel burn than the A340. The A350 will be an even better plane than its pre
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