For quite some time we have heard the rumors about the KLM 77W becoming 10 abreast in Y. One argument against this change (KLM now has 9 abreast in the 772) except from diminished comfort was the difference that would be created between the KLM Y product (10 abreast) and Air France (9 abreast). But, AF seems to be considering to launch a new cabin config on the 77W starting next month, featuring 10 abreast in Y without increasing the seat pitch. I would expect this increases the Y cabin with 25 to 30 seats. However, others mention an increase on the 77W from 235Y to 250Y seats, by adopting a new cabin-config and moving around "dead space" in the form of galleys and lavs.
It is suggested that there might be more to this, and that AF is considering on splitting up the Y cabin into a Y- and a Y+ cabin. The Y cabin will have 10 abreast seating, no champagne, different meals, whereas the Y+ cabin will have 9 abreast, champagne, etc. I can be expected SkyTeam elites will be seated in the Y+ section, as well as pax that pay the higher economy fares. A logical move. You pay less, you get less. This development is seen in other international airlines and would be totally understandable from a AF/KL point of view.
Last but not least, there have been talks about refitting the 772 with 10 abreast also.
FYI, the info in his thread is mainly based on FlySSCs' contributions in the thread mentioned above.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8641 times:
Hi!
I flew AF last June to FIH and I flew KL in 2005 to KIX, both in Y and both offered me a great service. I can understand that AF/KL wants to make changes in their Y class, but I think that should be done in special markets, like North America for example, I don't think that would be the best idea in markets like Africa, Asia or South America. Let's see, I paid € 1.500 for my round trip LIS/CDG/FIH/CDG/LIS, I think that's more than enough for AF to give a glass or two of champagne, and a decent meal...and that's what I got, an excellent service. When I flew to KIX once again Kl offered me a great service too, and I'm sure AF would do that too, but if they change that they'll probably lose some market to asian airlines that normally have such a high standard of service even in Y that I don't know if I would consider or not flying with them. In the north american market, well that's a bit different, US airlines normally don't even give any complementary drinks in Y, european yes, I think I could handle a not sophisticated service for a good price...but only in North America!
Just my opinion.
Regards
FlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7313 posts, RR: 61 Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8558 times:
Quoting PHKLM (Thread starter): I would expect this increases the Y cabin with 25 to 30 seats. However, others mention an increase on the 77W from 235Y to 250Y seats, by adopting a new cabin-config and moving around "dead space" in the form of galleys and lavs.
As you say, going from 9-abreast to 10-abreast would represent an addition of 25/30 seats.
In the Air France reservation system, the capacity in Y on the B77W that will be used to operate AF346/AF347 next winter in now 250 Y instead of the current 235 Y, so it sounds more likely to me that this increase will be made possible moving around "dead space", or redisiging the Galley at Door 4, closets, etc ...
Quoting PHKLM (Thread starter): It is suggested that there might be more to this, and that AF is considering on splitting up the Y cabin into a Y- and a Y+ cabin.
For a long time, Air France was reluctant to the idea of an "Economy +", as they say it could affect the loads in J.
Considering the success of such a class with other airlines, the more and more "segmentation" of the passengers, and the big success of the "Tempo Challenge" in Europe, and "Alizée" in the Caribbean, AF can longer ignore the interest of such a Y +/- product.
When, Where, and How it will be adopted is another premature question ...
Quoting PHKLM (Thread starter): It is suggested that there might be more to this, and that AF is considering on splitting up the Y cabin into a Y- and a Y+ cabin. The Y cabin will have 10 abreast seating, no champagne, different meals, whereas the Y+ cabin will have 9 abreast, champagne, etc.
Once again, all these are at the stage of rumors and nothing has been confirmed (nor denied) by AF, That's why I was waiting to post a thread on this subject, but now that you've done it, PHKLM ...
Quoting CV990 (Reply 1): I can understand that AF/KL wants to make changes in their Y class, but I think that should be done in special markets, like North America for example,
You are absolutely right. Just like the First class was kept only on the markets where there is a demand for it, the Y+/- could be adopted for certain markets also like North America.
LY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8502 times:
I hope these changes will not happen, I would not understand why AF would dowgrade their Y product whereas all carriers tend to upgrade it. It would be really disappointed!
TGV From France, joined Dec 2004, 868 posts, RR: 23 Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8159 times:
The big question is what will be the changes:
Option 1: Y+ = Actual Y and Y- = Downgraded Y (10 abreast in a 777 and same pitch)
Option 2: Y+ = Upgraded Y (for example 8 abreast in a 777 and better pitch, as made by BR), and Y- = Actual Y
And as they sell First class on this flight we can unfortunately assume it is not a temporary replacement by a 77W COI !
So it seems the Option 1 is already underway.
I don't care about champagne, I dont' care obout IFE, I don't care very much about the food or the service, I mainly care about space on-board.
If I pay 1300/1500 euros for CCS-CDG-CCS and end in a noisy 777 with a 3-4-3 cabin and the actual pitch, I assure you I will not be amused.
And I will undoubtly exchange this for an any LH / IB / UX flight on board a silent aibus with a 2-4-2 cabin, far cheaper in addition ! It will be a little longer and with a transfer, but far more comfortable.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
PHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 3 Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8011 times:
Quoting TGV (Reply 4): with the cabin map of the 777 used to YUL in Nov for AF 346:
Based on this map, the capacity of the 77W is indeed increased!
Between doors 4 and 5 there are currently 121 Y seats.
On the screen-dump shown in the link above there are 128 Y seats between doors 4 and 5.
This means an increase of 7 seats in this section. However, based on the number of rows I am inclined to say the seat width has been reduced with the seat pitch increased!
New config:
Old config (c) Air France:
If any mod reads this: can the word "rumor" be removed from the title?
ZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5540 posts, RR: 40 Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7970 times:
10 abreast in a 777 is horrible as 9 in 330/340 is. I would never ever fly with such an airline. I really find that even the normal Y seats (9 in 777 and 8 in 330/340) are too narrow (I am not fat). Economy in our days is a real nightmare.
PHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 3 Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7899 times:
Quoting ZRH (Reply 7): 10 abreast in a 777 is horrible as 9 in 330/340 is
Well, it's official guys. AF is going for 10 abreast in Y on the main-line fleet.
You can all see it when booking a flight to YUL in November via the AF website.
The total Y capacity of the 77W will be 134 pax in the first cabin, and 128 in the second, making it 262 in total.
An increase of 27 seats over the current config! I therefore need to conclude the seat pitch WILL NOT increase.
So it's gonna be 10 abreast with 32" pitch, incredible! Stupid move by AF.
Leskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 72 Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7843 times:
Quoting PHKLM (Reply 8): So it's gonna be 10 abreast with 32" pitch, incredible! Stupid move by AF.
Quoting ZRH (Reply 9): Quoting PHKLM (Reply 8):
Well, it's official guys. AF is going for 10 abreast in Y on the main-line fleet.
Thanks for this information. My personal consequences: I will not fly these airlines anymore in economy.
While I'll avoid them as well (not too difficult - there's no way my girlfriend is ever willing to connect through AMS again, and her experiences on either AF and KL were also less than flattering to those two airlines), more than enough people will continue to fly them: I seriously doubt they'll end up losing a lot of business and/or revenue because of this... in fact, I'd be surprised to not see this move positively affect the bottom line of both carriers...
... unfortunately.
Quoting ZRH (Reply 7): I really find that even the normal Y seats (9 in 777 and 8 in 330/340) are too narrow (I am not fat). Economy in our days is a real nightmare.
I've been spared the "pleasure" of a B777 with 10-abreast so far, but I've experienced Airbus widebodies with 9-abreast (they were A300s in my case, but the result is pretty much the same): unbearable for anything beyond an hour.
As for 9 abreast on B777s and 8 abreast on A330/A340s - if the pitch isn't microscopic, I tend to find them comfortable enough.
B747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 983 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7787 times:
The worrying thing is, if other airlines (for example BA) see this working for Air France and KLM, they might get ideas and start adding 10 abrest in Y to their 777s and 9 abrest in their 787s. BA's crappy 31inch pitch is the piss-pot of god-awfulness at the best of times. Imagine what it will be like with only a 17inch width!!!! I would not put it past BA. Their strategy (and rightly so) is maximising profits (hence more premium class seats, 30inch pitch on 321s). They don't really seem to care about Y class passengers, and they already have a very decent Y+ product. They could view cramming more seats in as a way to encourage more people to fly Y+ or to pay the same price for a Y ticket, but get less in return, hence increasing BA's profits.
ZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5540 posts, RR: 40 Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7787 times:
Quoting Leskova (Reply 10): I've been spared the "pleasure" of a B777 with 10-abreast so far, but I've experienced Airbus widebodies with 9-abreast (they were A300s in my case, but the result is pretty much the same): unbearable for anything beyond an hour.
I see a very bad future for economy class. The 787 is narrower than the 777 ans most airlines will fly them with 9 abreast.
Timo007 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 38 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7671 times:
Looks like Air France is leading a race to the bottom. I thought their seats were uncomfortable before. Looks like I will keep my business with NWA A330's from CDG to DTW. I really like the two seats on the side especially row 10.
PHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7651 times:
Quoting Leskova (Reply 10): I've been spared the "pleasure" of a B777 with 10-abreast so far
We will have to see how many planes will be fitted with 10 abreast and on what routes they will fly, but it is not a good sign for sure.
FlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7313 posts, RR: 61 Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7613 times:
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 11): Their strategy (and rightly so) is maximising profits
That is the purpose and the strategy of ALL airlines ... Airlines are not "Philanthropic" companies ...
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 11): They don't really seem to care about Y class passengers
Sorry to say that, but NO airline really cares of Y passengers ... They are just there to fill in the planes and they are not the one who make the profits.
Sad ... but true !
Air France will not be the first airline to go for 10-abreast in Y in the B777 (see : KLM, EK ...). Something tells me they won't be the last either ...
SB From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 216 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7582 times:
Yikes! I flew on one of EK's 3-4-3 772s and it was just terrible, the window seat it actually 'cropped' to fit into the curvature of the cabin. Same with the 3-3-3 layout in an A330 (though the downstairs WCs were cool - guess which airline)
I'm quite disappointed to see AF/KL doing this, AF's 77W in 3-3-3 was uncomfortable enough already. Unless their comparatively high fares go down and/or the food/service is improved dramatically I think they may have a hard time keeping regular Y travellers. BA just lost 2 competitors as far as I'm concerned.
ZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5540 posts, RR: 40 Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7509 times:
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 16): Sorry to say that, but NO airline really cares of Y passengers ... They are just there to fill in the planes and they are not the one who make the profits.
Sad ... but true !
You are absolutely right. But I don't understand why no airline offers an other deal: I would gladly pay more than the normal economy fare (but much less than business), have NO service and IFE when I would get a reasonable seat width an pitch. I would take my books (need no IFE) my own sandwich and water.
FlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7313 posts, RR: 61 Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7385 times:
Quoting ZRH (Reply 18): I would gladly pay more than the normal economy fare (but much less than business), have NO service and IFE when I would get a reasonable seat width an pitch
But more width and pitch are what cost money to an airline. Food service and IFE cost much less, and are actually used by a lot of airline as a "compensation" for cramped seats.
Moreover, it may be not important for you (it is not important for me either) but considering the number of threats on IFE and Food service on board, it seems to be important for a lot of people !
Note also that if you ask people what they want they will all answer : Good seat, large pitch, good food, good IFE and VERY LOW FARE.
It would be about time for people to realize that flying is not cheap. It costs a lot, and Will cost more and more to airlines in a near future (environment taxes, higher and higher price of fuel etc ...).
ZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5540 posts, RR: 40 Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7355 times:
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 19): Note also that if you ask people what they want they will all answer : Good seat, large pitch, good food, good IFE and VERY LOW FARE.
It would be about time for people to realize that flying is not cheap. It costs a lot, and Will cost more and more to airlines in a near future (environment taxes, higher and higher price of fuel etc ...).
Yes, but I don't understand these people. I would say: large width, large pitch, large pitch, large width, large width, large pitch......
Aircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1419 posts, RR: 9 Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7159 times:
On YUL-CDG, AC just introduced 777 service at 10-abreast in Y. I suppose AF could not resist long before doing the same. And, in two-three years, A380 at 11-abreast when AC starts 787 at 9-abreast.
Well... I guess my next flight will probably be on Zoom. Cramped for cramped, let's save a few $...
Leskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 72 Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7099 times:
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 11): They don't really seem to care about Y class passengers,
I wouldn't go quite that far - but since passengers have long since lost an interest in paying anything even resembling a realistic fare, I cannot really blame the airlines: then again, the airlines have pretty much brought this problem on themselves anyhow...
Quoting ZRH (Reply 12): I see a very bad future for economy class. The 787 is narrower than the 777 ans most airlines will fly them with 9 abreast.
... I'll reserve judgement until I experience it for myself, but I don't expect that configuration to be the height of comfort.
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 16): Sorry to say that, but NO airline really cares of Y passengers ... They are just there to fill in the planes and they are not the one who make the profits.
Sad ... but true !
While they don't make the profits, they don't hurt them either: they're useful as a foundation, and they do pay for a varying amount of the base cost that the airline incurrs on a flight - if they didn't, and they actually cost more than what the airlines earned from them, we'd not be seeing Economy class on airlines.
Quoting ZRH (Reply 18): You are absolutely right. But I don't understand why no airline offers an other deal: I would gladly pay more than the normal economy fare (but much less than business), have NO service and IFE when I would get a reasonable seat width an pitch. I would take my books (need no IFE) my own sandwich and water.
I'd take that offer as well, without hesitation - problem is, most people wouldn't: for most, a flight must be as cheap as remotely possible. Unfortunately, that's what's causing these decisions by AF/KL and other airlines to downgrade their Y class...
Luv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1648 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6994 times:
Slightly off topic but I took a trip ATL-Rome (FCO?) on Delta in 2003 and am almost certain that Y was 2-4-2 on a 772. I know now it's 3-3-3 but am I imagining something or was Delta that generous at one point in time? If I remember the seats had lumbar support and were quite thick as well.
When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
PHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6901 times:
Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 23): Slightly off topic but I took a trip ATL-Rome (FCO?) on Delta in 2003 and am almost certain that Y was 2-4-2 on a 772. I know now it's 3-3-3 but am I imagining something or was Delta that generous at one point in time?
No. Delta's 772's where configured 2-5-2 and hence had the same seat width as they have right now. 2-4-2 in a 772 would be very generous, in comparison, a lot of carriers have 2-3-2 in J class...
25 WildcatYXU: Are you sure? AC's T7 are configured with 9 seats abreast in Y
26 CPH757: Hmm. sounds like I'm the only one in here being just a little positive about this. This move by AF makes them able to sell cheaper Y tickets compared
27 ZRH: I am really getting old . I remember the old days when I was a teenager Swissair had 8 abreast (2-4-2) in their DC 10 in economy before they changed t
28 ZRH: This is really a matter of view. I am ready to pay more for economy when I get more room. Actually economy tickets are already ridiculously cheap and
29 AF773: This is not very good news. Do you think AF will do the same on all their long haul fleet? AF773 ( 773 from now on...
30 AF-A319: Interesting move if it gets confirmed.... BA used to operate a few 777s in a 3-4-3 configuration from LGW to the Caribbean. They switched back to the
31 CPH757: Yeah, it's a matter of view, but you can't really cook it down to your and my oppinion. Besides illustrating my own preferences, as they are differen
32 Viscount724: AC 777s are 9-abreast (3-3-3). Seat charts for 777-300ER and -200LR: http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/77W.html http://www.aircanada.com/en/abo
33 FlySSC: We don't have that much information on the subject for the moment, and there is a lot of speculation in all the replies above ... but nothing really
34 Leskova: They were operated by a charter airline on behalf of BA in BA livery - as soon as BA took over those operations again, the planes were reconfigured t
36 RIX: - Airbus being "silent" is same myth as it being "underpowered" (unless you truly believe it is powered by 4 APUs ). It may be a bit less noisy, but
37 Luv2cattlecall: Thanks for clearing that up...I looked at some old pictures I took onboard on that trip and you're right, 2-5-2. I wonder why they started out with s
38 Leskova: No, I'm not - and while those are "Early Bird Winter Specials" (I think all of them had almost the same name for the special, though they are from co
39 Airbuster: So is it just a matter of time before we see 11 abreast 747's? And let's not start about what they intend to do with the 380 then?
40 Deguoren: I didn't notice it either onboard EK 773. Somebody had to tell me... And I also didn't think EK 10 abreast was more uncomfortable than AF or SQ 9 abr
41 UTA_flyinghigh: Being an AFKL FF I can assure you it is not a myth. The 332/343 are much quieter than their 777 counterparts. On T7's, if the noise isn't coming from
42 MBJ2000: I've chosen already 3 times AF for the route MUC-CDG-IAH in their 777 because it was an "acceptable" experience, getting champagne made life easier in
43 LongHaul67: I wonder what is going to happen to the premium/network airliners that decide to downgrade their Y product with LCC carriers going on the offensive to
44 RIX: - I don't know what you call "much quieter" - to me, I did not even notice it, as I was never changing one to another in, say, two hours or so. So, I
45 Aircellist: Are you sure? AC's T7 are configured with 9 seats abreast in Y " target=_blank>http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fl....html Oooh, what a shame! I tho
46 CPH757: I'm just saying that if AF can put more passengers into their aircrafts, they should be able to lower prices, no matter what the price was before and
47 FlySSC: PHKLM, please, what is your source for these figures ? Because this is not what I heard today at CDG during training. As I mentionned already, the ca
48 PHKLM: Off course FlySSC, I made this calculation based on the seat map that I get when I book a ticket on AF346 on the AF-website. Just select the dates, e
49 AF-A319: Interesting... It's quite unusual to see a different configuration within the same travel class. I can only think of Finnair's MD-11 which offer nine
50 FlySSC: Thanks PHKLM ! There must be something wrong somewhere because this is not the information I had today. I'll try to clear this up next wednesday as I
51 Leskova: Lauda also had the same thing (3-3-3 in one cabin, 3-4-3 in the other) on the B777 - not sure if Austrian still has the same configuration on them th
52 TGV: Considering the only improvement in the "new" 777 International is the change for 9 to 10 abreast I doubt AF will get the same kind of positive impre
53 Viscount724: OS 772 seat chart in their website shows the entire Y cabin 10-abreast 3-4-3 except the last 3 or 4 rows where the fuselage narrows. 49 J (2-3-2) and
54 Ka: That is only on OE-LPC and -LPD. -LPA and -LPB are still flying in the original Lauda-configuration with 3-3-3 in the first part and 3-4-3 in the rea
55 FlySSC: The configuration of these B77W is confirmed to be 8P / 67J / 250Y with a 3x4x3 seating in the whole "Y" class (except the last 4 rows, 2x4x2). This c
56 TGV: " target=_blank>http://www.austrianairlines.co.at/NR...7.pdf Interesting pdf, thank you. This enables to compare the pitch between AF 772 and OS 772.
57 Viscount724: Thanks for that information. I noticed the asterisk but thought it was related to the difference between the 258 and 260 seat layout. Obviously10-abr
58 VV701: The three aircraft were operated by Airline Management Ltd (AML) that was a joint venture between BA and Flying Colours. The aircraft were absorbed i
59 Hugo: I think there are carriers that realized that 3-3-3 is the way to go... even the 9 abreast 2-5-2 was less than ideal. Isn't EK going to 9 abreast from
60 Semsem: That would be a shame as AF offer one of the best Y products; comfortable seating, good food, decent entertainment and nice crews. So far they are one
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