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Airbus Refined A350XWB Design  
User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 12714 times:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...irbus%20refined%20A350XWB%20design

Sorry no quote, the article contains information on lots of small items.

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12623 times:

In the low-speed arena, Airbus already has amassed considerable wind tunnel time. Results have shown the aircraft has better low-speed performance than thought, allowing Airbus to reduce the thrust requirement for the A350XWB engines. The thrust rating for the -800 version is now 74,000 lb. (versus 75,000 lb.), for the -900 model it is 83,000 lb. (rather than 87,000 lb.) and for the -1000 it is 92,000 lb. (down from 95,000 lb.). McConnell says brake performance has also been improved. Rolls-Royce, for now, remains the sole engine supplier with the TrentXWB.

Interesting and significant thrust reductions, especially for the -900 and -1000 models.

Looks like it will allow RR to design a slightly smaller, more efficient engine, which will be consuming less than anticipated.

Good news for the XWB and its already huge CASM improvements over the 777.

[Edited 2007-10-01 09:47:19]

User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12491 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12334 times:
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Some additional news in this week's electronic FI (article not online yet). Images below (c) FI.

The revised profile now looks like this:
Big version: Width: 831 Height: 268 File size: 36kb
Revised A350 profile


The much-maligned A380 nose looks much better in this rendition than the old FI "cut-away" diagram:
Big version: Width: 545 Height: 474 File size: 38kb
A350 nose job!


And here are the latest model specs:
Big version: Width: 835 Height: 315 File size: 59kb
A350 Specs



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12212 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2):
The revised profile now looks like this:

On this picture the nose design looks even older than the one of the A300, maybe it looks better in reality or in a 3d computer animation



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently onlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1875 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12141 times:

So the seating specs are now based on two-class arrangement? If that's the case, then the whole family will be more direct 787 competition than everyone originally thought... Interesting, least to say...


STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineMBJ2000 From Germany, joined Dec 2005, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 12019 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2):

I like the new renditions, she looks gratious from the side and mean from the front!  Smile



Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
User currently offlineAF2323 From France, joined Aug 2007, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11835 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
On this picture the nose design looks even older than the one of the A300, maybe it looks better in reality or in a 3d computer animation

I think we should wait for Airbus's renderings to see what the A350 will really looks like... I hope not like FI pictured it...


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11466 times:

A spectacular and elegant looking airliner. I can't wait to fly her and she still isn't even off the drawing board yet.

Are Airbus being cheeky making it look like the 787?


User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5131 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11443 times:

Any idea when they will freeze the design? Must not be to long anymore I guess.

User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3924 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11298 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 8):
Any idea when they will freeze the design? Must not be to long anymore I guess.

October 2008 is the design freeze milestone.


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11196 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 1):
and its already huge CASM improvements over the 777.

Yet to be seen , it's still a paper airplane.
As for appearance, the new profile looks like a giant A320 to me, not necessarily a bad thing.  Smile



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User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12491 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11148 times:
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Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 4):
So the seating specs are now based on two-class arrangement? If that's the case, then the whole family will be more direct 787 competition than everyone originally thought... Interesting, least to say...

I don't know if that table is Airbus's or Flight's. It's interesting that only one item is marked as having come from Airbus, so I suspect this is Flight's data.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11124 times:

Keep in mind that these are not Airbus images, rather Flight International Images. I dont thing the airbus ones will be too far off though.

User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11060 times:

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 10):
Yet to be seen , it's still a paper airplane

Oh come on. There really is NO need to doubt the obvious.

Just as no sane person will question the fact the 787 will offer significant CASM improvements over the 767 and A330 as it is a far more modern design, it is only common sense to accept the A350 will be far more efficient than any 777 version. By how much, that remains to be seen, but given the information on the lower thrust requirements of the A350-900 and -1000 compared to how much thrust the 77W needs to do the same missions and the fact Airbus has now adjusted those requirements downwards, it really is obvious this plane will burn a lot less fuel than the 777 does.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 10):
As for appearance, the new profile looks like a giant A320 to me, not necessarily a bad thing.

The nose looks a bit more pointier though and has the A380 style cockpit windows in it, so it seems like Airbus is continuing the tradition to give family members the same 'face' or at least the same 'eyes'

Anyway, I prefer this look over the nose of the 787 (copied from the Caravelle, Comet series, with some Emb profile thrown in), but then I don't think looks really matter in this case.

[Edited 2007-10-01 14:16:14]

User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10845 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 13):
Oh come on. There really is NO need to doubt the obvious.

Even though this is just yet another adjustment of figures there is no doubt that the A350 will be should be better than variants of the 777.

Hell it ought to be seeing it will be 18 years newer. The main issue here is has Airbus missed the bus targeting the 777 and also with such a long lead in time till introduction (2013) what happens if Boeing promises a significantly superior Y3 announced around 2010-11 for EIS 2016.

That would likely leave the A350-1000 'becalmed' and the vast 77W operators lining up for large numbers of Y3.

I think Boeing are waiting eargerly for design freeze on A350 and then watch for Y3 2010.........


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10626 times:

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 14):
I think Boeing are waiting eargerly for design freeze on A350.

I think right now Boeing is eagerly waiting their next shipment of fasteners actually.


Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 14):
watch for Y3 2010

Shouldn't their next project in the time frame you mention be Y1 (737 replacement)?

I think airlines worldwide are more eagerly waiting something totally new in the A320/737 category, than anything else from Boeing right now.

In that case, Y3 is further out in time than you think and it remains to be seen whether Boeing will ever launch such a plane. Don't forget that if Boeing bites the bullet and redesigns the 787-10 so it does what it is supposed to do and given the fact there clearly isn't a huge market for 747-8i or bigger if we are to believe the Airbus bashers, the market for a Y3 which isn't interfering with the 787 is getting pretty small to rush all resources into it.

On the other hand, Y3 might still be needed from a Boeing perspective, because otherwise their product range tops off with the 787-10 and thus falls short of spanning the entire spectrum.

Interesting dilemma indeed.

There was a discussion about this some time ago and the most likely conclusion is that the 787-10 will probably be Boeing's only real answer to the A350 for a very long time and Airbus can pretty much "guestimate" how such a plane will perform.

The product line up of Boeing in mid next decade will be: Y1/787/777/748 and NOT 737/787/Y3, I think that is pretty obvious already.

[Edited 2007-10-01 14:50:40]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10398 times:
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Good things airlines don't buy on aesthetics. Between the A380 and the new A350, Airbus is suffering from the "Chris Bangle effect".  vomit 

VN just signed for 10 of them this morning (plus another bunch of 787s), so that is another endorsement of the A350 as a 772/A333 replacement.

And I still think the 787HGW is going to be Boeing's choice going forward.


User currently offlineKbdude From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10196 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 15):
On the other hand, Y3 might still be needed from a Boeing perspective, because otherwise their product range tops off with the 787-10 and thus falls short of spanning the entire spectrum.

Well.... with that rationale.....from an Airbus perpsective, the Airbus product range will bottom out at the A358XWB.

The A330 sales will be very limited mid-next decade.
The A320 sales will be on a serious decline come Boeing Y1 launch in mid 2010 & EIS by mid 2015.



Airbus product line up mid next decade is.... A320/A350/A380?


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10110 times:

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 17):
Airbus product line up mid next decade is.... A320/A350/A380?

I expect it to be

A32X ( possibly an enhanced version)
A332F
A332 MRTT
A333F
A350
A380

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineFlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 700 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10110 times:

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 17):
The A320 sales will be on a serious decline come Boeing Y1 launch in mid 2010 & EIS by mid 2015.

If Y1 will EIS 2015, I will be very surprised. Both A&B are still waiting for the engines for their narrowbodies, and I actually expect both manufacturers to come up with a new generation narrowbody aircraft at about the same time. Currently both 737 and A320 are selling like hot cakes, so there's really no need to spend billions of dollars to develop a new model.

What comes to the topic of this thread, interesting article.

And what comes to the looks of that thing, it's just about the same as every widebody twin there's - a tube with two engines hanging from its wings. I really fail to find the beauty or ugliness of this thing when compared to a A330/777/787...


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10023 times:

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 17):
Airbus product line up mid next decade is.... A320/A350/A380?

I think it will be

A320X(*)/A350/A380,

with a NSR on the drawing board to replace the A320 and leapfrog Boeing's Y1 in much the same way -albeit more plausible- as so many on this site hope the much more doubtful Y3 to do to the A350.

(*): or A320NG or A320E or whatever you want to call a significantly improved A320 with the new generation engines under its wing, something which is possible for the A320, contrary to the 737 and which forms the main case for the need of a clean sheet design from Boeing.

[Edited 2007-10-01 15:33:20]

User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9991 times:

I don't really get the persistence of the concept that the 350 can stretch further than the 787...they are both, basically, the same diameter. Since they're using the same materials, what is preventing the 787 from being just as big as the 350?


What the...?
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9922 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 21):
I don't really get the persistence of the concept that the 350 can stretch further than the 787...they are both, basically, the same diameter. Since they're using the same materials, what is preventing the 787 from being just as big as the 350?

The A350 is actually a tad wider, but you are right, the 787 could in theory be stretched to match the capacity of any A350 model. There os no problem with that, the problem is with the performance (payload/range) of such a plane.

The 787 has a far smaller wing, has less powerful engines and stands on a thinner undercarriage, and for all those reasons, the simple stretch 787-10 as presented by Boeing to potential customers doesn't stand a change against the A350-900 and A350-1000, hence the numerous public demands from customers to Boeing to actually redesign the 787-10.

Obviously, what is the advantage of the A350 at the high end of the spectrum, is its disadvantage at the low end in the -800 model, which will likely be the poorest selling model of all and have the hardest time competing against the 787 because it is somewhat overbuilt and overwinged.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9893 times:
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Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 21):
Since they're using the same materials, what is preventing the 787 from being just as big as the 350?

Airbus Aficionado blinders.  Smile

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 20):

I think it will be A320X(*)/A350/A380, with a NSR on the drawing board to replace the A320 and leapfrog Boeing's Y1 in much the same way -albeit more plausible- as so many on this site hope the much more doubtful Y3 to do to the A350.

So Boeing can't make a better plane than Airbus, but Airbus can always make a better plane then Boeing (since the A350 is better then the 787 and now the A320RS will be better then the 737RS, even though neither has even hypothetical specs at this time).

It is opinions like this that contribute to so much of the strife on this forum...  Sad


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9777 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
So Boeing can't make a better plane than Airbus, but Airbus can always make a better plane then Boeing

You got me wrong there.

Both CAN make better planes than the other, the question here is WILL they make it at all?

My point is that although a Y3 COULD indeed leapfrog the A350 like some here have suggested as the greatest risk to the A350, Boeing will not soon be in a position to launch it, because they will be using all their resources on the Y1 in the time frame which is suggested for the launch of Y3 as reaction to the A350 (provided they should think Y3 is needed in the light of a likely 787-10 launch)

On the other hand it is a factual given Airbus WILL launch their NSR and will likely do so only AFTER Boeing has committed to the Y1.

Same scenario applied to both manufacturers, just weighing in the likeliness of it, gives the most likely idea of the
product line up of Boeing mid next decade: Y1/787/777/748
product line up of Airbus mid-next decade: A320NG/A350/A380 with NSR just around the corner.

[Edited 2007-10-01 15:54:18]

25 Post contains images Scbriml : It might even be a bit of a pickle!
26 Bkircher : The A350 has to be one of the ugliest airplanes that I have ever seen. I still think the A350 is pointless to even make, Boeing has already won that c
27 Aircellist : The nose, well... They have done as Boeing did with the 787: nice prospective drawing, but the final product is not as convincing... What looks intere
28 Stitch : Got it. And yes, I can agree that come mid-decade Boeing will have the 777 and 748, but they'll still be delivering units sold through the last years
29 Post contains images Texfly101 : Don't bet on it. You might be surprised to see what they are actually doing. There's a tremendous amount of hiring going on right now in selected pro
30 Post contains links and images Astuteman : Still not online yet, but some interesting snippets........ "The A350's double lobe cabin cross-section finalised at aroiund 5.97m (235 in)...." Isn'
31 Post contains images AutoThrust : Couldn't agree more, this nose is a disaster. If aesthetics would count more i would fire McConnel and all the design engineers. I doubt any VIP's wi
32 Hawkercamm : I don't think too much should be taken from these flightglobal "schematic" drawings. We should wait until we see pictures with the airbus stamp on
33 Kbdude : You could say then... product line up of Boeing mid next decade: Y1/787/777/748.....with Y3 just around the corner. To me... the huge problem is.....
34 SEPilot : Being "more modern" is no guarantee of being better. Windows Vista is "more modern" than Windows XP, but I have yet to encounter any favorable commen
35 Post contains images AutoThrust : I don't believe Boeing will build Y3 now. Because the huge backlog on the 787 and remaining issues, the development on the 748 and i guess Y1 is at t
36 Post contains images Carls :
37 Post contains images Dougloid : Well yes, considering by the time they get them their B777s and A330s will be worn out. See, to be an airbus believer you have to be like the guy in
38 PlanesNTrains : I really question how much this will matter. Will a year or two difference in launch between the two really make a difference in their performance? I
39 Post contains images Astuteman : With:- more efficient engines somewhat lighter structures, more modern systems more modern wings providing greater span, better lift, and significant
40 Post contains links Baroque : It has been said before, but every time the 350 characteristics come up, the wings are largely ignored - in this thread obviously with the exceptions
41 Post contains images Astuteman : Just check out the wings on the 789 - 62m span and aspect ration of 10.4:1 Lots of span = high L/D But as you say, the bigger wing is feasible within
42 Stitch : Low up-front "capital acquisition costs" will certainly be appealing to LCCs and ULCCs, but you still need to make a profit with those planes. Airlin
43 SEPilot : I do in fact agree that the new planes are certainly going to be better; my only point was that just because it is "newer" or "more modern" that it i
44 JoeCanuck : Hallelujah...a simple point but so hard to make. Thank you.
45 Post contains images SEPilot : You're welcome.
46 Stitch : These new two-class seating specs are almost identical to the three-class seating specs Airbus had for each model, so either the A350's suddenly shor
47 Tdscanuck : No. Boeing doesn't want to build Y1 and Airbus doesn't want to build A320NG. It's the customers that want those products but, as long as both Airbus
48 Post contains links Jdevora : Yep, unless you change 737NG by "current planes", that is John Leahy's theory at least Pictures: Airbus aims to thwart Boeing’s narrowbody plans wi
49 PlanesNTrains : While I agree in general, I think that my thought is that this buys Airbus time - not substitutes for a replacement. For a period of years in the fac
50 Stitch : Most likely true. As the industry transitions to the "next generation" of planes across the board, the long lead times the sheer popularity of each n
51 Ruscoe : IMO in the 787/777 v 350 battle the biggest problem is the cost of the 350, made worse by the Euro/Dollar exchange rate, and Airbus not having this le
52 Post contains images Abba : Who knows what the exchange rates will be in 1 year? Not to mention 2 or 3 years and even in 1/2 year? If you did you could make a lot of money indee
53 SEPilot : I strongly suspect that this is true. If Boeing had their druthers they would still be selling 707's, 727's, 737 Jurassics, and 747 classics. Designi
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