Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
19 Passenger Class Aircraft  
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5441 posts, RR: 7
Posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18518 times:

In another thread, it was noted that one B1900 operator seems to succeed another on subsidized routes in the US. In the 19-pax class, there doesn't seem to be a logical replacement. The Chinese (Harbin Aircraft), however, are building the Y12F, which they call a regional 19-pax airliner, among other missions. While it will probably be really cheap, it will also be unpressurized and slow - about 245 knots.

Will pax, spoiled by the comparative luxury of B1900's, be willing to go back to almost DC-3 standards of low, slow, and chewing gum? Is the Y12F a viable first world airliner?


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18440 times:

I think it would depend on the situation, it could certainly become a competitor to the Czech built Lets and even the resurrected DHC 6-400 for island hops in the Caribbean or small archipelagos frequented by tourists where the flights are short and stay low so the pressurisation would not be so much of an issue. Trouble is, there aren't many applicable situations that I can think of in the US for it, and I'm not really sure if that's the market which it's aimed at anyway.


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18412 times:

Highly unlikely. The Be1900s are still peforming their mission. When time comes to find a replacement a better alternative will become availible. No airline is going to buy an unpressurized airliner (save for Cape Air with the C402 and some Alaskan operators) for Part 121 ops here in the US, especially given the high altitude of many EAS destinations. Speed is also a factor, and given the age of the Y-12, efficiency is probably sub-par. All of that aside, the chance of seeing a Chinese airliner in the US is slim.


"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18385 times:

I prefer the Jetstream31 or Dornier228. Unlike the Be1900s, they are more comfortable and offer facility for cabin service and a toilet.

User currently offlineSpoke2Spoke From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18344 times:

There is the issue of passenger comfort, which may deter operators and passengers alike. Un-pressurized may be a big deterrent.

The speed issue is another, as congested airports are becoming more wary of slower aircraft causing bottlenecks on approach. The Dash-8, according to this website, cruises at 237 knots, which is slower than this Y12F. So it may not be that slow.



...carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks. - Wilbur Wright
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18196 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
spoiled by the comparative luxury of B1900's,

Wow, could I have fun with that statement......A B1900 certainly does not offer any luxury for them to compare it to.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18191 times:

Maybe a stretched PC-12 could do the job.


Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18110 times:

I seriously doubt anything will replace the B1900D in the US on the EAS routes - though some routes have gone to C208 aircraft recently.

Frankly I think the very limite profit potential even with financial support will result in most EAS cities losing all air service over the next decade or two.

Nothing will replace the B1900 because the routes will dry up.


User currently offlineSh0rtybr0wn From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18073 times:

Beechcraft 1900 is not a bad plane. Very fun to fly in; very torque-y twin turboprop power. But theres not much legroom. I would think an unpressurized plane would be an inferior ride.

User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 18038 times:

I think the technology is available to build a next-generation 19-seater with more room and amenities without adding much weight, and thus being more efficitent ... which might keep the small-city markets like EAS alive.


I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 18038 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 5):

Wow, could I have fun with that statement......A B1900 certainly does not offer any luxury for them to compare it to.

It offers the luxury of not having to drive ___ hours to the "big" airport. That is worth its weight in gold. Twin engines and pressurization is a nice touch too.

Quoting A342 (Reply 6):
Maybe a stretched PC-12 could do the job.

No need to stretch it. Since the single engine planes are prohibited from going larger than 9 pax, the PC-12 is already right-sized.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5441 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 18034 times:

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 2):
given the age of the Y-12, efficiency is probably sub-par.

Harbin's Y12F, despite the name, is not a newer version of the Y-12; it's a completely new airplane due to fly next year. A model is shown here: http://www.avbuyer.com.cn/e/2007/15381.html



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 17969 times:

Quoting Spoke2Spoke (Reply 4):
The speed issue is another, as congested airports are becoming more wary of slower aircraft causing bottlenecks on approach. The Dash-8, according to this website, cruises at 237 knots, which is slower than this Y12F. So it may not be that slow.

Believe the 237 kts is for the -100. The -200 (or Q200 if you prefer) is more like 280 kts.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineRikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1647 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 17886 times:

One of the most intriguing regional aircraft designs of the last few years is slightly smaller than 19 seats. The National Aeronautics Laboratory in India is producing a 14 seat rear-engined pressurized regional aircraft. The model is called "SARAS", and there are a couple of prototypes flying now. Power comes from 2 P&W Canada PT6A's, with the intention of meeting all FAR requirements in the USA. I don't think it would be too much engineering to add one more row to make it a 19 seater...

http://www.nal.res.in



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 17841 times:

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 3):
I prefer the Jetstream31 or Dornier228. Unlike the Be1900s, they are more comfortable and offer facility for cabin service and a toilet.

The Be1900s have can be equiped with lavs, in the place of a seat(bringing the capacity to 18). Air Canada does this as they run the 1900s on some long routes. AFAIK, the Jetstream J31s don't have lavs or galleys.


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 17822 times:

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 13):
"SARAS"



Reminds me of the Embraer CBA-123 Vector (I wonder if they'd ever revisit the concept?):

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bill Blanchard - AirTeamImages
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Pedro Aragão



Here's an off-the wall suggestion, how about Piaggio building a 19 pax a/c based on the P-180 Avanti?


User currently offlineSpencerii From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 17752 times:

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 2):
No airline is going to buy an unpressurized airliner (save for Cape Air with the C402 and some Alaskan operators) for Part 121 ops here in the US, especially given the high altitude of many EAS destinations. Speed is also a factor, and given the age of the Y-12, efficiency is probably sub-par. All of that aside, the chance of seeing a Chinese airliner in the US is slim.

I would disagree with you there about NO ariline buying a non pressurized cabin airliner. Remember about 10 years ago there were unpressurized craft in many of the fleets of what is considered MAJOR REGIONALS now.
The EMB110 Bandierante was not pressurized. The SHORTS (flying milk cartons) were not pressurized,
The Dornier 228 was not, The Beech c99 was not. Also, SALMON air out in IDAHO & UTAH was flying EAS services just last year with Navajos. NewMexico airlines is flying EAS services with non pressurized Caravans.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 17686 times:

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 15):


Here's an off-the wall suggestion, how about Piaggio building a 19 pax a/c based on the P-180 Avanti?

Actually that's not off-the-wall at all. The 1900 was pretty much an evolution of the King Air line. The P-180 is kind of like a 21st century King Air (sorry to the King Air fans out there, I like 'em too!) so I could see it as quite feasible.


User currently offlineSpoke2Spoke From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 17638 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 11):
A model is shown here: http://www.avbuyer.com.cn/e/2007/153....html

The Y12F kinda looks the like offspring of a Shorts 360 and a Dornier 328.



...carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks. - Wilbur Wright
User currently offlineDw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 17617 times:

Quoting Spencerii (Reply 16):
Also, SALMON air out in IDAHO & UTAH was flying EAS services just last year with Navajos. NewMexico airlines is flying EAS services with non pressurized Caravans.

Are they operating under Part 121 or Part 135 Commuter?



CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 17599 times:

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 3):
more comfortable



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 3):
Jetstream31

The end is surely upon us if I am actually seeing those words together. Having riden a few legs in the back of a J31/32, I found them to be anything but.

Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 19):
Are they operating under Part 121 or Part 135 Commuter?

I am reasonable certain that Part 121 operators cannot use single engine aircraft. They also cannot use single pilot operations. That is why Beech 1900 FOs have jobs.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineT prop From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1029 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 17532 times:

Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 19):
Quoting Spencerii (Reply 16):
Also, SALMON air out in IDAHO & UTAH was flying EAS services just last year with Navajos. NewMexico airlines is flying EAS services with non pressurized Caravans.

Are they operating under Part 121 or Part 135 Commuter?

Navajos and Caravans can't be operated under part 121 rules, those aircraft are not equipped and can not meet performance requirements to do so. 19 seaters are no longer economical to operate under 121 rules unless you have EAS routes.


User currently offlineTiago701 From Portugal, joined Jun 2006, 171 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 17463 times:

Could this be an option?

www.skylander-aircraft.net


User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 17431 times:

EMB-120 ? Or a potential follow-up of this a/c ?
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2461 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 17284 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 20):
They also cannot use single pilot operations. That is why Beech 1900 FOs have jobs.

Just fyi, Salmon Air operated the flights to Vernal, Moab, and SLC,UT with two pilots in their Navajos.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
25 Post contains images Nwarooster : Speed and comfort are not a big item on a 19 passenger turboprop. They run short hops, so what is an extra ten minutes. It is not a make or break item
26 Icna05e : I would think there is slightly more than one row to be added to go from 14 to 19 seats. This is not a B737 nor an RJ85!
27 Post contains images MasseyBrown : You can't have fun with it - I already did. Nevertheless, the B1900 offers speed and pressurization, which really are luxuries in this class of aircr
28 A342 : Well, the Grand Caravan can seat 11 with FAR 23 regulations and 14 without.
29 Post contains links and images HangarRat : " target=_blank>www.skylander-aircraft.net Is this a descendant of the Britten-Norman Islander and Trislander? There was a company called Wings Airway
30 BOACVC10 : The video is really worth looking, and I am sure the aircraft will impress a.netters ! BOACVC10
31 Srbmod : It's technically still in production, so who knows? Perhaps Embraer could revisit the stretch of the EMB-121 that was the original EMB-120 concept kn
32 RFields5421 : That would have to be a 25 seater with 6 seats removed. The 19 seat limit is not aircraft size. It is due to requirements for the destination airport
33 Srbmod : Or you could make the stretch shorter than originally proposed. The EMB-121 derivative EMB-120 never even got off of the drawing board, as Embraer we
34 KingCavalier : American Eagle's J31 (and later J32) did have lavs. It was in the rear as you came up the steps. It was part of the entrance and could only be used o
35 Access-Air : Actually, I think that the FAA should re-classify passenger aircraft seating 10-19 seats back to Part 135 status...Obviously the higher cost to run a
36 Tornado82 : As for the Beech 99, is anyone familiar with Bemidji Air's operations?
37 Post contains links Access-Air : Bemidji Air used to use Beech Queen Air's into and out of MSP from Bemidji Minn ona 2wice per day round trip.. I am not sure how many Beech 99s they s
38 RFields5421 : Only in general terms - but I have flown KDEN (Stapleton) - KCYS and back on a Beech 99 for a scheduled flight. Forget the airline - it was 1991.
39 Post contains links ERAUgrad02 : I remember in one of my aviation books 15 or so years ago Embrear had a concept for a new 19 seater based on EMB-120 but had pusher props at the back
40 Beertrucker : To all of you I just say bring back the Twin Otter and that would solve things. LOL. HAHAHA. I tried to add pics but with the server change it won't l
41 Clipperno1 : What happened to the Metro? Did anybody (chinese?) buy the production rights? Wonderful aircraft and the later Metro 23 was a real powerhouse. While t
42 Access-Air : Well that was either Centennial Airlines which flew the Beech C99s or Pioneer Airways that flew Beech 99s. I dont think that when GP Express was flyi
43 Miami1 : Orion 737 - Many airlines' BE1s feature lavatories. Most of VQ's had them. NZ's have them.
44 Mandala499 : Wasn't/Isn't there a plan for this? Damn Twotters, love'em or hate'em, it's irreplaceable! To hell with Y12/PZL/C212/whatever else! Mandala499
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
BA 3 Class Aircraft OPS As 2 Class posted Wed Jun 20 2007 12:51:44 by Industrybuff
BA Three-class And Four-class Aircraft posted Thu Apr 14 2005 00:23:53 by FlyCaledonian
Passenger Lands Aircraft After Pilot Dies posted Mon Aug 7 2000 05:17:26 by Ericmetallica
Longest Passenger Jet Aircraft In Service? posted Mon Feb 7 2000 00:19:21 by Boeing 777
NAS To Sign Deal For 19 Aircraft Soon. posted Thu Feb 1 2007 08:55:01 by Manni
AW: A New Class Of Aircraft Debuts - The PLJ posted Fri Jan 26 2007 08:55:20 by Baron95
Aircraft And J Class Info Needed posted Tue Aug 29 2006 09:43:31 by Deaphen
Air Cargo,dedicated Carrier Vs Passenger Aircraft posted Tue Apr 4 2006 15:35:22 by Bravogolf
Rare Passenger Aircraft Still Flying posted Fri Mar 17 2006 17:31:29 by Airevents
Passenger Demograhics In First Class posted Tue Feb 14 2006 14:46:54 by AT