Patroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2117 times:
Quoting EbbUK (Reply 1): Maybe it is high time, plane building was given back to the people who know best and not the bean counters!
Don't blame the bean counters for that... these announcements and promises to customers come from marketing people with an over-optimistic high-level perspective, trusting that any problems on the way will be solved "somehow" by "someone"
Jasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2116 times:
Or simply an interesting tactic on Boeing's behalf, promise an early EIS on the back of Airbus's A380 woes, bring in the orders (which it clearly has), then deliver ONLY a few comfortable months later than originally planned
Avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4477 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2116 times:
Hmph -- so many wanted to jump at my throat (and indeed the throats of many a.netters) at our belief that a 6 month (and possibly longer) EIS delay was inevitable for the 787.
It wasn't meant to be a knock on Boeing or the 787 -- which I am eagerly waiting to fly on -- but rather a conclusion based on the premise that Boeing would ultimately not feel comfortable with a testing programme that deviates substantially from established practices for technical and legal reasons.
B747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17451 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2117 times:
Quoting Jasond (Reply 7): Or simply an interesting tactic on Boeing's behalf, promise an early EIS on the back of Airbus's A380 woes, bring in the orders (which it clearly has), then deliver ONLY a few comfortable months later than originally planned
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2117 times:
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 6): But I am sure they will not only solve the problems, they will deliver the plane with the promised data...
Ihr Glaube in Gottes Hände..
It's about time people stop talking BS about the 787 and become realists.
We have a situation where a 700+ orderbook is currently handicaped by a completely uncapable supply and manufacturing shedule. Nobody dares to say the truth because of stock-market implications.
Boeing will pull it off -yes - no doubts!
When will they pull it off ? - the management knows but doen't dare to tell the truth .
Flight-testplanning is utterly unrealistic considering the current hick-ups and persistent issues with suppliers (Alcoa,Alenia,Flightsoftware??)-so let's spit it out and concede a 9 month delay (at least ).
Thorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 days ago) and read 2116 times:
First of all, I must say this is a very good article, the way it is written and how it describes a lot of issues in easy language.
Boeing now faces major hurdles:
a) getting the first plane to fly, complete the flight schedule, and do the EIS
b) ramping up production
both are very difficult, given the problems mentioned in the article. Delays seem inevitable, but airlines will have built themselves a plan for a situation like that, because new planes aren't safe from delays.
Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 15): Well taken they know more... question is, when does it cross the line where it becomes illegal.....
It won't. If you listened to the previous analyst webcasts, the Boeing top brass was careful enough to use phraes like "we are still confident" or "we think" or "we still aim at"...
That said, a sober analysis based on what knowledge is 'out in the industry' indeed suggests a 4-6 month delay for 1st delivery. But as others have pointed out in the other thread, what really matters is the impact on the overall ramp-up with 112 deliveries planned until end of 2009. If they can make that, everything else will be forgotten quickly - except for the usual 'Incredibles'-style anecdotes how all the nagging problems were finally overcome
Sparkingwave From South Korea, joined Jun 2005, 682 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 days ago) and read 2118 times:
As we have seen with the A380, it doesn't really matter these days if an airplane's EIS is delayed or not. What are the airlines gonna do anyway? Cancel orders? They'll risk losing their competitive edge.
6 months doesn't even seem all that bad, compared to Airbus' 2 year delay. The 787 still comes out smelling like a rose.
Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
Victor009 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2116 times:
Lets not compare airplanes and manufacturers here,
A plane is a very complicated thing to built over that these are new ones, so no one knows how to do it right the first time.
Airbus has learnt it already and its actually given them a good lesson and also a great advantage in getting rid of their dual heads , cutting costs etc etc and more is that the A380 is the most mature aircraft to enter into commercial service.
Its Boeing's turn to learn and i guess we should leave to them, though i am a die hard Airbus fan, i guess boeing deserves a pat on the back and some great appreciation for doin their good job.
So lets us all just wait and watch, people who have to do will do whatever they have to do and not what we have to say.
I am sure it will, as it can be argued the most important metric for Boeing to meet is to get LN008 into Air China's hands for Beijing. I would expect, push come to shove, Boeing will give Air China LN008 before they give NH LN007.
Airbus will lose face because China Southern will not have the A388 at Beijing 2008. That is something Boeing will not want to do if they can at all help it, as it will come into play in future orders from China.
Sh0rtybr0wn From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2116 times:
This delay is hilarious, because now Boeing fans "understand" how this could happen to the A380. When Airbus delayed the A380 for another 6 months it was collapse, disaster, apocalypse. But now with the 787, six months is no problem. It makes me laugh.
Last summer in 2006 everybody was at each others throats and Airbus fans got a raw deal with some of the most brutal criticism on the A380 and the EADS company.
If the A380 and 787 had experienced delays at the same time, there would have been much less bickering and posturing.
All these delays cut the A350 XWB a lot of slack. If that presumably great plane is late 6 months, nobody will even raise an eyebrow.
Carls From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2116 times:
Stich, why you always put things Airbus vs Boeing? B won because this or that. Boeing is struggled with the 787 debacle and Airbus already passed trough it with the A380. Both are marvelous aircraft, in my opinion.
Instead of keep looking to see how we can make Airbus looks bad, let's hope Boeing can address all the issues with their 787 and put it on the air.
Let's try to keep Airbus out of this thread to see if we can enjoy it.
Astuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10670 posts, RR: 97
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2116 times:
Quoting Sparkingwave (Reply 16): As we have seen with the A380, it doesn't really matter these days if an airplane's EIS is delayed or not. What are the airlines gonna do anyway? Cancel orders? They'll risk losing their competitive edge.
Airbus and the A380 have survived a c. 2 year delay. Boeing and the 787 will survive a 6 month delay, should it materialise. I'm sure any delays will matter immensely to the airlines affected, but the 787 is such a step change in capability/economics, I can't imagine any serious orders being at risk.
Quoting Victor009 (Reply 18): Airbus has learnt it already and its actually given them a good lesson and also a great advantage in getting rid of their dual heads , cutting costs etc etc
In extremis is the best place to REALLY learn about your business, and these businesses shouldn't be afraid of it.
Quoting Victor009 (Reply 18): Its Boeing's turn to learn and i guess we should leave to them, though i am a die hard Airbus fan, i guess boeing deserves a pat on the back and some great appreciation for doin their good job.
Couldn't have put it better myself
Personally I'll still consider a 6 month programme delay on the 787 an astonishing achievement, by Boeing, and will duly tip my hat.
Quoting Carls (Reply 21): Stich, why you always put things Airbus vs Boeing?
FWIW Stitch has persistently been one of the staunchest defenders of the A380 (and its programme) during its troubles, despite being a self-declared Boeing fan. And has earned my personal respect and gratitude in the process .
I'm hoping that the A-net community, including "self-declared" Airbus fans (such as myself) can display the same generosity (as illustrated by Victor009 above) to the ground-breaking 787