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787, A Possible 6 Month Delay  
User currently offlineVictor009 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 109 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1827 times:

Hi guys,

Found an artice on 787 on the likely delay of 6 months in the delivery of the aircraft to its first customer ANA and knock on effects.



Link to the article:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/334520_planeorders06.html


Regards
VJC


XWB- The one to fly.
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1827 times:

it would seem commercial pressures have led both manufacturers to give undeliverable EIS dates.

Maybe it is high time, plane building was given back to the people who know best and not the bean counters!


User currently offlineSandroZRH From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1827 times:

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 1):
it would seem commercial pressures have led both manufacturers to give undeliverable EIS dates.

Plus, tapping a new technology doen't help either, as there can always be unexpected complications.

Let's see what happens, one single newspaper article won't convince me.

Needles to say, if it happens, some people around here will denie it, even when we'll be four months into the delay  Wink


User currently offlineRobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1829 times:

It's somehow strange that this article has not been discussed here earlier, given that it's at least 1 day old:

Quote:
Last updated October 5, 2007 8:05 p.m. PT
6-month delay seen for 787 delivery


User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1829 times:

Rather have it delayed then unsafe.

New aircrafts need more time than estimated. Airbus learned that lesson and Boeing will it too.  Smile


User currently offlinePatroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 1):
Maybe it is high time, plane building was given back to the people who know best and not the bean counters!

Don't blame the bean counters for that... these announcements and promises to customers come from marketing people with an over-optimistic high-level perspective, trusting that any problems on the way will be solved "somehow" by "someone"  Wink


User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3631 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 4):
Rather have it delayed then unsafe.

So true. I wonder why they had such an unrealistic schedule in the first place anyway. But I am sure they will not only solve the problems, they will deliver the plane with the promised data...


User currently offlineJasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1827 times:

Or simply an interesting tactic on Boeing's behalf, promise an early EIS on the back of Airbus's A380 woes, bring in the orders (which it clearly has), then deliver ONLY a few comfortable months later than originally planned  Wink

User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4405 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1827 times:

Hmph -- so many wanted to jump at my throat (and indeed the throats of many a.netters) at our belief that a 6 month (and possibly longer) EIS delay was inevitable for the 787.

It wasn't meant to be a knock on Boeing or the 787 -- which I am eagerly waiting to fly on -- but rather a conclusion based on the premise that Boeing would ultimately not feel comfortable with a testing programme that deviates substantially from established practices for technical and legal reasons.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17079 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting Jasond (Reply 7):
Or simply an interesting tactic on Boeing's behalf, promise an early EIS on the back of Airbus's A380 woes, bring in the orders (which it clearly has), then deliver ONLY a few comfortable months later than originally planned

Can they really do like that????



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 6):
But I am sure they will not only solve the problems, they will deliver the plane with the promised data...

Ihr Glaube in Gottes Hände..
It's about time people stop talking BS about the 787 and become realists.
We have a situation where a 700+ orderbook is currently handicaped by a completely uncapable supply and manufacturing shedule. Nobody dares to say the truth because of stock-market implications.
Boeing will pull it off -yes - no doubts!
When will they pull it off ? - the management knows but doen't dare to tell the truth .
Flight-testplanning is utterly unrealistic considering the current hick-ups and persistent issues with suppliers (Alcoa,Alenia,Flightsoftware??)-so let's spit it out and concede a 9 month delay (at least ).



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineGlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1827 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 10):
When will they pull it off ? - the management knows but doen't dare to tell the truth .

Well taken they know more... question is, when does it cross the line where it becomes illegal.....

GlobeEx



As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1827 times:

First of all, I must say this is a very good article, the way it is written and how it describes a lot of issues in easy language.

Boeing now faces major hurdles:

a) getting the first plane to fly, complete the flight schedule, and do the EIS

b) ramping up production

both are very difficult, given the problems mentioned in the article. Delays seem inevitable, but airlines will have built themselves a plan for a situation like that, because new planes aren't safe from delays.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31119 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1827 times:
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Just makes it that much easier for Boeing to sell 1000 787s before EIS, which is the metric folks will remember through history, not that she was late.  thumbsup 

User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7213 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1827 times:

Will the aircraft be flying in Asia in time for the Olympics?


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1827 times:

Quoting Robffm2 (Reply 3):
It's somehow strange that this article has not been discussed here earlier, given that it's at least 1 day old:

It was discussed earlier:
787 Status? (by Tonytifao Sep 27 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 15):
Well taken they know more... question is, when does it cross the line where it becomes illegal.....

It won't. If you listened to the previous analyst webcasts, the Boeing top brass was careful enough to use phraes like "we are still confident" or "we think" or "we still aim at"...

That said, a sober analysis based on what knowledge is 'out in the industry' indeed suggests a 4-6 month delay for 1st delivery. But as others have pointed out in the other thread, what really matters is the impact on the overall ramp-up with 112 deliveries planned until end of 2009. If they can make that, everything else will be forgotten quickly - except for the usual 'Incredibles'-style anecdotes how all the nagging problems were finally overcome  

[Edited 2007-10-07 06:34:26]

User currently offlineSparkingwave From South Korea, joined Jun 2005, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1829 times:

As we have seen with the A380, it doesn't really matter these days if an airplane's EIS is delayed or not. What are the airlines gonna do anyway? Cancel orders? They'll risk losing their competitive edge.

6 months doesn't even seem all that bad, compared to Airbus' 2 year delay. The 787 still comes out smelling like a rose.



Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17079 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1827 times:

Quoting Sparkingwave (Reply 20):
6 months doesn't even seem all that bad, compared to Airbus' 2 year delay. The 787 still comes out smelling like a rose.

Okey 6months is not sop bad, but it is always better to have the a/c ready on the date you say. Not as Airbus and the A380.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineVictor009 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1827 times:

Listen guys,
Lets not compare airplanes and manufacturers here,

A plane is a very complicated thing to built over that these are new ones, so no one knows how to do it right the first time.
Airbus has learnt it already and its actually given them a good lesson and also a great advantage in getting rid of their dual heads , cutting costs etc etc and more is that the A380 is the most mature aircraft to enter into commercial service.

Its Boeing's turn to learn and i guess we should leave to them, though i am a die hard Airbus fan, i guess boeing deserves a pat on the back and some great appreciation for doin their good job.

So lets us all just wait and watch, people who have to do will do whatever they have to do and not what we have to say.

Regards
VJC



XWB- The one to fly.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31119 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1827 times:
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Quoting BestWestern (Reply 17):
Will the aircraft be flying in Asia in time for the Olympics?

I am sure it will, as it can be argued the most important metric for Boeing to meet is to get LN008 into Air China's hands for Beijing. I would expect, push come to shove, Boeing will give Air China LN008 before they give NH LN007.

Airbus will lose face because China Southern will not have the A388 at Beijing 2008. That is something Boeing will not want to do if they can at all help it, as it will come into play in future orders from China.


User currently offlineSh0rtybr0wn From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1827 times:

This delay is hilarious, because now Boeing fans "understand" how this could happen to the A380. When Airbus delayed the A380 for another 6 months it was collapse, disaster, apocalypse. But now with the 787, six months is no problem. It makes me laugh.
Last summer in 2006 everybody was at each others throats and Airbus fans got a raw deal with some of the most brutal criticism on the A380 and the EADS company.
If the A380 and 787 had experienced delays at the same time, there would have been much less bickering and posturing.

All these delays cut the A350 XWB a lot of slack. If that presumably great plane is late 6 months, nobody will even raise an eyebrow.


User currently offlineCarls From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1827 times:

[quote=Stitch,reply=19][/quote

Stich, why you always put things Airbus vs Boeing? B won because this or that. Boeing is struggled with the 787 debacle and Airbus already passed trough it with the A380. Both are marvelous aircraft, in my opinion.
Instead of keep looking to see how we can make Airbus looks bad, let's hope Boeing can address all the issues with their 787 and put it on the air.

Let's try to keep Airbus out of this thread to see if we can enjoy it.

Few days ago was with the A350, now this.

[Edited 2007-10-07 08:08:39]

[Edited 2007-10-07 08:10:15]

User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 1827 times:

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 20):
When Airbus delayed the A380 for another 6 months it was collapse, disaster, apocalypse. But now with the 787, six months is no problem. It makes me laugh.

Six months versus two years is an enormous difference.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10111 posts, RR: 97
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 1827 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Sparkingwave (Reply 16):
As we have seen with the A380, it doesn't really matter these days if an airplane's EIS is delayed or not. What are the airlines gonna do anyway? Cancel orders? They'll risk losing their competitive edge.

 checkmark 
Airbus and the A380 have survived a c. 2 year delay. Boeing and the 787 will survive a 6 month delay, should it materialise. I'm sure any delays will matter immensely to the airlines affected, but the 787 is such a step change in capability/economics, I can't imagine any serious orders being at risk.

Quoting Victor009 (Reply 18):
Airbus has learnt it already and its actually given them a good lesson and also a great advantage in getting rid of their dual heads , cutting costs etc etc

In extremis is the best place to REALLY learn about your business, and these businesses shouldn't be afraid of it.

Quoting Victor009 (Reply 18):
Its Boeing's turn to learn and i guess we should leave to them, though i am a die hard Airbus fan, i guess boeing deserves a pat on the back and some great appreciation for doin their good job.

Couldn't have put it better myself  thumbsup   Smile
Personally I'll still consider a 6 month programme delay on the 787 an astonishing achievement, by Boeing, and will duly tip my hat.

Quoting Carls (Reply 21):
Stich, why you always put things Airbus vs Boeing?

FWIW Stitch has persistently been one of the staunchest defenders of the A380 (and its programme) during its troubles, despite being a self-declared Boeing fan. And has earned my personal respect and gratitude in the process  thumbsup .
I'm hoping that the A-net community, including "self-declared" Airbus fans (such as myself) can display the same generosity (as illustrated by Victor009 above) to the ground-breaking 787

Regards


User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 1827 times:

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 22):
Six months versus two years is an enormous difference.

It started off being a 6 month delay for the A380 and gradually grew to 2 years. I wonder if the B787 will follow in A380's "footsteps"...



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
25 B747forever : I dont think that Boeing and the 787 will be delayed as the A380. To many customer waiting on the a/c.
26 BrianDromey : Personnally, it seems like Boeing have not learned from the lessons of the 747 (or ahve forgotten them). Maybe EIS will be 6 months delayed (but I thi
27 Ytib : The fact there are many customers waiting does not mean it will not experience a further delay. The bottom line as stated before is safety, and witho
28 Post contains images Babybus : No, I will remember her for being late. Lateness isn't a marketing tool.
29 Post contains images Stitch : You are evidently not familiar with my posting history on this forum, sir. If you were, it should be pretty clear that I do not engage in "A vs. B" d
30 Avek00 : Let's not mix apples and oranges here. The A380 delay and the "likely" 787 delay frankly aren't comparable at all but for the delay itself. Breakdown
31 Stitch : You are (at least) the second person to bring this "issue" up, yet official reports from the suppliers is that they are tracking closer and closer to
32 Post contains links ANCFlyer : Thread Topic discussed in depth in this thread. 787 Status? (by Tonytifao Sep 27 2007 in Civil Aviation) I'll lock this since there's valuable info he
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