CptRegionalJet From Germany, joined Oct 2007, 123 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6632 times:
Hello everybody.This is my first post on A-net
I just checked the first pictures of the new Sukhoi Superjet.It's a good looking plane and the similarity to the Do728 design is evident.
I also read about it that it features many "western style" avionics and systems.The price of it is nearly unbeatable and a big plus in today's price conscious market.Just out of interst,how do you rate it's chances on the worldwide market?
Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 1): looking back Russian aviation's quality of construction and flight ability have something in question
Actually the build quality is very good. They are usually build "like a tank". The problem has been more on the maintenance and operation part. The reason for western airlines not to buy these planes has often been high fuel-consumption and lack of spare-parts and support.
I think the Superjet might have a chance in the western market. The Russians have learned, and have had western airlines in the user-forum when they designed this plane. As you mentions it has western engines, and has an Italian partner for the support of western airlines. Sukhoi is still having to work hard to get that first big western order, but if it then proves successful many more orders might follow. I think the Superjet has the best chance ever for a plane built in the former Soviet to succeed in the west.
Life is like a book. If you don't travel, you only read one page.
Rbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 612 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 days ago) and read 6632 times:
I know that Russian manufacturing has come a long way. The market perception always takes longer, in some case very much longer, to change.
Tha being said, given the growth in low cost carriers around the world, I wouldn't be surprised if some European or Asian carrier (or start-up, for that matter) gives this plane a shot. If they get a fantastic deal and the operating economics work, why not?.
I do wish them well, but I do suspect it will be a long time before any Russian civilian aircraft shows up in a North American fleet.
A bit hard to compare the Superjet 100 to a plane that never got past the mockup stage. The Embraer E-Jets family is a more appropriate comparison.
If the Superjet 100 makes it into the fleet of a major European airline (which is a very distinct possibility), it may have a chance in the Western world. Boeing wouldn't have gotten involved in it if they didn't think the Western market would be interested in it. I think Boeing will definitely try to market it to some of their own customers as well.
If the backlog for E-Jets gets deep enough, and the CSeries keeps getting delayed past 2013, that could work to the advantage of Sukhoi. The Superjet 100 family is in the same pax range as the E-Jets, but really only competes with the proposed C-110, as due to Boeing's involvement, the Superjet 100 will not exceed a capacity of 110 pax.
Pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3158 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6633 times:
The jet has a chance if it can compete economically with the others in the market. However it's rare that more than two manufacturers have had comparable designs at the same time that have done well. In the past it was MDD and Boeing with Lockheed, Fokker and others trying to join the fun. Today it's Boeing and Airbus building the big guys, with Bombardier and Embraer owning the smaller segment. It's going to be very difficult for Sukhoi.
ORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6633 times:
IIRC Boeing is helping in post sales support and maintenance networks for the aircraft. This is vital as the airline needs to be reassured that once the aircraft is purchased proper support post purchase is vital. IMHO this aircraft has the best chance of breaking into the global market of any Russian aircraft.
I hope it works! Despite the constant accusations of "copycat" designs they former USSR had a massive R&D effort. Lets not forget that the reason for the similarities was due to the fact that the airliners were needed for similar missions.
Last time I checked the SuperJet is the first design to come to market with a 5 abreast fuselage and engines under the wings. Others (Shorts for example and Bombaridier with the C-series) have tried but failed to make it to market with a similar product. If the C-Series comes to market is it a copy of the SuperJet?
Don't forget the Russians were the first out in space. Is the entire American (and subsequent Chinese and European space efforts) mere copies of the Soviets?
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8215 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6633 times:
I think with Sukhoi now using more or less Western-style production techniques, the Superjet 100 could actually be a major success, especially in the Third World where local authorities have finally realized that flying older planes aren't safe anymore and are now demanding new-build planes. (This is especially true in Africa, where in the past 3-4 years there has been a serious crackdown on flying older planes.)
TomB From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6605 times:
The E-190AR and the SSJ100-95LR have many similar design characterisitics. Both are low wing regional aircraft with medium bypass turbofan engines mounted beneath the wing. Both are designed to carry 98 passengers at a cruise speed of Mach .78 with a maximum range of 4260-4420 kms. Both offer similar passenger comfort with 20"+/- aisles and seats that are 18.3"+/- wide.
The E-190AR has four abreast seating with a long, thin fuselage and the SSJ has five abreast seating with a shorter, wider fuseleage.
The E-190 was certified in the 3rd Quarter of 2005 while the SSJ will probably be certified in 4Q 2008.
The SSJ claims several advantages over the E-190AR:
1. The Maximum Takeoff Weight will be 11.4% lighter on the SSJ (45,880 kg vs. 51,800 kg)
2. The fuel burn and operating costs will be about 10% less than the E-190AR.
3. The current list price of the SSJ, $27.8 million, is about 18% less than the E-190AR
Alenia of Italy has purchased a 25% participation in the Superjet program giving the SSJ program more creditability in the western markets.
I have two questions for the A Netters:
1. Do you think the SSJ program will be able to maintain the above operating and cost advantages as they progress through flight testing and certification?
2. Although the SSJ's acceptance in the Russian market is assured, how do you think the SSJ will sell in the West European and North American markets?
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 14097 posts, RR: 47
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6605 times:
Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 6): The IL96 is a derivative of the IL86, which is much older (announced 1971, first flight 1976!) than the A340.
Well, since the A340 is a derivative of sorts of the original A300, the fact that the IL-86/96 has some resemblance to the A340 isn't that far fetched.
Regarding the Sukhoi Superjet, I believe it has potential in Europe as well. SK is said to be considering the SSJ as a replacement for their Dash-8Q400s, and a smaller European airline has already ordered the SSJ as well.
Traveler_7 From Estonia, joined May 2000, 540 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6454 times:
Quoting CptRegionalJet (Reply 15): With western companies involved I think it will have its fair chance.Last I heard it was even considered by LH as an alternative.
Involvement of Boeing and some other western companies was mentioned many times. I still do not get where this
aircraft will undergo regular technical service? Would Boeing provide such service for North American customers?
Where such center/ centers will be in Europe? or it should fly to Komsomolsk-na-Amure? Reliable maintenance system would boost interest in this aircraft.
OV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 930 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6091 times:
I think that there are several obstacles in the way of the Superjet becoming a bestseller.
Firstly, as far as I know, it has no real global support or maintenance network. Russian/Soviet airliners have previously been used by only a handful of airlines on each continent. Since the engines bear a relation to GE it might be easier in that respect, but how about performing regular technical checks on the airframe?
Secondly, I have high doubts about quality. Given that it's built for maximum efficiency and operating costs, i.e. an environment not similar to the Soviet aircraft industry when due to military requirements reliability and ruggedness topped the priority list instead of efficiency. I think that in production aircraft we might come across the utter lack of quality and the results of the overall ladna-mentality that you may well notice left and right all across the former Soviet Union, and especially Russia.
Thirdly, and this is not less important. Public opinion. Why do airlines often prefer regional jets over turboprops, even when they are more expensive to operate? Because the customers prefer the RJs. I predict the same thing will happen with the Superjet. Western passengers, many of whom still possess the good old politically motivated perception that Soviet/Russian aircraft are inherently unsafe (you can come across this even in these forums), will choose an operator with Western technology, even if the ticket price is higher by a small margin.
Thus, in my opinion, the primary market for the Superjet will be the CIS area, with other operators still "friendly" to the Russian ideology, and hopefully also some non-politically motivated Western countries.
DYflyer From Norway, joined May 2006, 676 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5978 times:
Quoting OV735 (Reply 17): Firstly, as far as I know, it has no real global support or maintenance network.
Alenia will provide the support for European customers. I guess Boeing (or some partners) would provide support for customers on the American continent.
Quoting OV735 (Reply 17): Thirdly, and this is not less important. Public opinion. Why do airlines often prefer regional jets over turboprops, even when they are more expensive to operate? Because the customers prefer the RJs.
I don´t know about this. Most PAX don´t know (or care) what plane they are on. They can´t tell an A320 from a B737, and have no idea where they are produced. As long as the plane don´t get a lot of bad press, and it seems modern and in good condition (to them) they will fly it. Comparing it to turboprop vs RJ isn´t right since most PAX are under the impression that the RJ is more modern and safer.
Life is like a book. If you don't travel, you only read one page.
OV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 930 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5949 times:
Quoting DYflyer (Reply 18): Alenia will provide the support for European customers. I guess Boeing (or some partners) would provide support for customers on the American continent.
Thanks for the correction, now I know better.
Quoting DYflyer (Reply 18): Most PAX don´t know (or care) what plane they are on.
Quoting DYflyer (Reply 18): Comparing it to turboprop vs RJ isn´t right since most PAX are under the impression that the RJ is more modern and safer.
It seems like there is a little contradiction here. Are you saying they don't care what they fly on despite they think that a jet is more modern and safe, or that they don't care what they fly on as long as it doesn't have propellers?
I would think, that at least in the present (perhaps it's different in 10-20 years), if a Western airline would start using a Russian built jet, it would be all over the media and would catch the eye of many a customer for the same airline. I might be wrong, but Western passengers often seem to consider Russian-built aircraft unsafe, and some journo with too much time on his hands might think the same way when he writes an article titled "X airline starts using Russian aircraft".
Some of the passengers would catch the news and, depending on their understanding of aviation safety and technologies, might decide to be careful when flying with the named airline.
But that's ofcourse only subjective speculation, nothing more.
SashA From Russia, joined May 1999, 868 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5790 times:
Quoting OV735 (Reply 19): I might be wrong, but Western passengers often seem to consider Russian-built aircraft unsafe, and some journo with too much time on his hands might think the same way when he writes an article titled "X airline starts using Russian aircraft".
I see where you're coming from. This may hold true nowadays still for some people. However I hope that there is also a good proportion of people who noticed that the recent accidents involving Russian build aircraft have the tendency of belonging to UN-blacklisted airlines in Africa where maintenance is poor to say the least and in the case with crashes in Russia - pilot error, was officially reported as causes. So, It is I hope becoming "out of fashion" these days to state that Russian built aircraft are inherently unsafe. Just look at Dash 8-400 consecutive incidents with the landing gear earlier in the autumn!
About the Superjet 100 I think that it lacks range to even be successful in Russia. Especially considering Russia's distances. There're quite a few mid-range routes served these days by Tu154Ms and Tu134A-3s, and flights often are 60% or 30% loaded. I bet the airlines would be more than happy to replace Tupolevs with the evidently more efficient Superjets, be it with fewer seats - more suitable for the routes anyway.
JoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 6129 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5790 times:
I think the Superjet's biggest obstacle to acceptance in the west is mostly political. The way that Putin is doing his best to put all industry under his thumb is what is really making the west nervous. I'm sure that they'll sell a few to airlines looking for a super bargain, (in the short term), but any business would have to be nuts to base their success on something coming out of Russia.
If Russia has few qualms about unilaterally squashing contracts with giants like BP and Shell, as well as cutting off the gas to Europe, I don't think they'll have any issues with screwing over a western airline.