NYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5151 posts, RR: 49 Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5535 times:
BoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 57 Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5535 times:
Scouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3254 posts, RR: 10 Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5535 times:
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 4): 141 new orders in September:
and a whole pile more to be confirmed in Oct, BA A380s, Wizzair and Tiger A320s
both races (orders and deliveries) are somewhat too close to call.
What's simply astonishing is that since the begining of 2005 A and B have sold over 5500 planes and in that time delivered significantly less that half of that - can these times last for ever?
Astuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9135 posts, RR: 96 Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5535 times:
Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 6): What's simply astonishing is that since the begining of 2005 A and B have sold over 5500 planes and in that time delivered significantly less that half of that - can these times last for ever?
Beggars belief really doesn't it?
At this rate, 20 year sales would be approaching 40 000 units, WAY higher than the current CMO's
Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter): They also posted orders of 854 vs. Boeing's 903 in the same time period. Sorry I don't have a link.
Gotta class as a good year for both manufacturers.
Starrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1081 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5535 times:
No, it can't last forever.
This wave of buying is being driven by predictions of how many people will be flying. How many new airlines have popped up and ordered a fleet of new planes? How many of those companies are going to survive more than five or ten years? The airline industry is cyclic and soon the downturn will come.
In three or four years there may well be a huge surplus of 737NG's and A320's looking for new homes at the survivors of the Airline World War.....
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21026 posts, RR: 60 Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5535 times:
Those are not net orders. They are gross orders. Due to A350 conversions, Airbus have had quite a few cancelations, and Boeing have 10 cancellations/conversions as well.
Airbus Net Orders: 797.
Boeing Net Orders: 893.
(through 9 months ending Sept 30, 2007)
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
NYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5151 posts, RR: 49 Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5535 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9): Those are not net orders. They are gross orders. Due to A350 conversions, Airbus have had quite a few cancelations, and Boeing have 10 cancellations/conversions as well.
Airbus Net Orders: 797.
Boeing Net Orders: 893.
(through 9 months ending Sept 30, 2007)
Thanks for the clarification.
Speaking of cancellations I see that Aerolineas Argentinas cancelled their A346 orders and it is reflected in the spreadsheet but AC and VS's A346 orders are still there. I thought those orders were also cancelled?
NYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5151 posts, RR: 49 Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5535 times:
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21026 posts, RR: 60 Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5535 times:
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 11): I don't think this number takes into account Aerolineas Argentinas 6 cancellations.
Maybe not. I was only adding 131 to the August Net. I can't keep track of Airbus and when they decide is the right time to book cancellations, as they are not consistent. In all honesty the total should subtract AC and VS as well, though maybe not in the current year.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Scorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 4934 posts, RR: 47 Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5535 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9): Due to A350 conversions, Airbus have had quite a few cancelations
A350 conversions have nothing to do with cancellations. Conversions from the earlier A350 versions to the XWB have never been counted as new orders by Airbus, and are thus not included in the 854.
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 70 Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5535 times:
Quoting Scorpio (Reply 13):
A350 conversions have nothing to do with cancellations. Conversions from the earlier A350 versions to the XWB have never been counted as new orders by Airbus, and are thus not included in the 854.
Initially Airbus opted to convert original A350 orders into the A350XWB, although they have now opted to cancel existing orders and book them as a new order.
This wave of buying is being driven by predictions of how many people will be flying. How many new airlines have popped up and ordered a fleet of new planes? How many of those companies are going to survive more than five or ten years? The airline industry is cyclic and soon the downturn will come.
In three or four years there may well be a huge surplus of 737NG's and A320's looking for new homes at the survivors of the Airline World War.....
Airbus and Boeing execs have said numerous times that this order boom will not last. Both companies do not rule out cancellations. The business is cyclical.
But, and there is a big but. The world economy does no longer depend heavily on the state of the US economy as it did in the past. You could very well see a slowdown in the US (and Europe) and continuing strong growth in Asia at the same time. In this case regional traffic in Asia might not at all suffer terribly. This would be good news for operators of the A320 and the B737.
In case of a lasting economic slowdown in the US and Europe (which is not inevitable !) and ongoing growth in Asia sales of widebodies could suffer much more than sales of narrowbodies. Such an economic scenario would probably be a blow to further fragmentation in the market for widebodies. There might be more to hubs and VLA than meets the eye.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21026 posts, RR: 60 Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4537 times:
Quoting Scorpio (Reply 13): A350 conversions have nothing to do with cancellations. Conversions from the earlier A350 versions to the XWB have never been counted as new orders by Airbus, and are thus not included in the 854.
As WINGS pointed out, yes, all A350 conversions are canceled orders and new orders. That is how they are accounted for. This is the main reason that Airbus's Net and Gross totals this year are so out of step. It's mainly an accounting thing, as conversions between families must be booked as new orders and cancels, and Airbus has gone through great lengths to finally make the A350X a new airplane, and want to distinguish it from the A350 of old. Plus, it gives them more press releases and inflates the gross numbers to book them as new.
If they didn't count the A350X as new orders and only gross conversions, their total would still be about 800, but their gross count would be lower as many of the A350/A350X orders are NET ZERO.
But some of those orders got converted + additional frames, which made them net positives.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Azhobo From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 348 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4537 times:
Total aircraft net orders for the year this week - 10/09/07:
7cubed From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 161 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3403 times:
Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 2): Any dollar value information for the 854 orders?
I don't have a $$$ value but, according to an article I read, 54% of Boeing's orders were widebodies vs. 37% for AB.
StarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3403 times:
What concerns me is the impact on Boeing and Airbus once China learns how to mass produce aircraft.
As soon as it's Made in china, those margins on sale for A & B will dissapear to $10 a day employees mass producing ChinaJets at half price !!!
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 70 Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3387 times:
Quoting Luniew (Reply 21): So Airbus canceled all of its A350 orders from previous years and booked them as A350XWB 2007 orders?
That seams unfair.
I don't consider it unfair, but I do consider it somewhat misleading and rather hard to keep track of the real numbers. The only positive thing is that all previous A350 orders will have to be re-confirmed by the end of 2007, otherwise it will be cancelled.
7cubed From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 161 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2884 times:
Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 20): What concerns me is the impact on Boeing and Airbus once China learns how to mass produce aircraft.
I agree, however, A lot of people see "made in China" as low-cost knock-offs - The recent problems about the quality of toys and other products from China don't help their image either. Whereas "made in Japan" is seen as being of high quality. Perhaps our concern should be for the latter. The fact is, B's and A's days of ruling the roost are slowly coming to an end. I'll bet that within the next 20 years they'll be a few more players in the large A/C business.
I'll also bet the airlines are going to love all this new competition.
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