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Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?  
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2917 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10157 times:

The BA609 seems to be the future model for air transportation. In the future what if all jets and transports have STOL/VTOL capability and airports with long runways could be eliminated???










short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10157 times:

Please dont let this be the future of commercial aviation.


Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10157 times:

Thats fugly.

Who wants a helicopter with moveable rotors?

Not moi.



AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
User currently offlineCanadianNorth From Canada, joined Aug 2002, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10157 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):
Please dont let this be the future of commercial aviation.



Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
STOL/VTOL capability and airports with long runways could be eliminated???

Well I can't see it happening on a large scale, atleast not for a long time. However, I can't help but think, if every airliner only needed say 1/4 of the space to take off, and some were even able to take off without runways at all, it could help a lot at major airports....
a) vertical takeoffs could mean some aircraft taking off right from the gate, eliminating the need to taxi out and wait for a runway
b) less aircraft taxiing would mean shorter line ups for the rest
c) shorter takeoff/landing rolls would mean shorter runways, which possibly could allow airports to get more runways/parking slots out of the same piece of land

Of course there would be many, many issues to work out first (ATC, proper spacing, etc)...


CanadianNorth



What could possibly go wrong?
User currently offlineItsnotfinals From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10157 times:

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 2):
Thats fugly.

Who wants a helicopter with moveable rotors?

the most advanced version of this type of aircraft is a massive failure and death trap. If the 20 billion the US Gov't put into the V-22 Oprey over the last 15 years can't fix it, I doubt this type of aircraft will be very servicable or affordable to operate.



http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1665835,00.html


User currently offlinePhoenixflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10157 times:

I doubt it. WIth the way the Osprey has worked out I would not want to fly on it.

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13194 posts, RR: 77
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10051 times:

Have we not been here before?
35 years ago, it was expected that we would see a proliferation of city centre airports.
Hawkers in the UK and German companies, to name two, designed airliners for VTOL, Hawkers looked at a low wing small airliner with two high bypass engines, but a bank of lift jets in huge fairings under the fuselage.

A combination of the oil crisis, noise concerns and the unpractical nature of many ideas, killed them, almost.

In Canada, the unlikely 4 turboprop Short Take Off And Landing Dash 7, then the HS, later BAe-146, another quiet 4 engine type, had these city centre airports in mind, made it to production, though AFAIK, only London City Airport, not opened until 1987, ran with the city centre idea.
And that only got built since there was so much derelict land in the old London docks, that would be massively developed into the business area it is now.

BA609 of course is more of a helicopter than an aircraft, but city centre heliports, for scheduled pax operation, have not seen growth or really sustained operations.
I took an old S-58T chopper, of New York Helicopter, from JFK to downtown in early 1993, they are not around now and that service replaced others with WG-30's and S-61's.


User currently offlineSANChaser From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9959 times:

I believe we'll see the VLJ market develop faster than S/VTOL aircraft. Isn't the fuel consumption of the Eclipse 500 much better over the distance/speed factor of a BA/Augusta 609?

Eclipse:
Empty weight: 3,550 lb (1,610 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 5,950 lb (2,699 kg)
Cruise speed: 370 knots (425 mph, 685 km/h)
Range: 1,125 nm (1,295 mi, 2,084 km)
Capacity: 4 to 5 passengers

BA609:
Empty weight: 10,483 lb (4,765 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 16,800 lb (7,258 kg)
Cruise speed: 260 knots (299 mph, 465 km/h)
Range: 750 nm (852 mi, 1390 km)
Capacity: 6 to 9 passengers/5,500 lb (2,500 kg) payload

Its an interesting development however for commercial aviation.  Smile


User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9884 times:

does anybody know if the V-22 has experienced any operational problems in terms of airspace, atc communications or airport layouts ???


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineItsnotfinals From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9674 times:

it's a military aircraft, so no





It wouldn't have any of those problems, the main issue is that it crashes all the time.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5413 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9674 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 8):
does anybody know if the V-22 has experienced any operational problems in terms of airspace, atc communications or airport layouts ???

It will, due to the lack of low-level IFR routes.

The only viable commercial use IMO is for corporate ... and that's pushing it. It has very few advantages over a helicopter of comparabe size, and many disadvantages. 6 pax would be the max for corporate. There are plenty of bizjet capable airports, and most have no problems with delays (TEB probably the one exception).

It's range is poor, so would not replace a fixed-wing corporate aircraft for most missions. We'll be seeing King Airs for many years to come ... and the odd S76 when required.

IMO it's trying to combine 2 missions into one aircraft ... not achieving either one of them 100% ... but with the disadvantages of both!


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineItsnotfinals From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9674 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 10):
It will, due to the lack of low-level IFR routes.

what do you mean? there are thousands of V routes low level (below FLs) IFR, this would have no impact, not sure what you are tring to say here.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5413 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9674 times:

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 11):
what do you mean? there are thousands of V routes low level (below FLs) IFR, this would have no impact,

It would if you are flying off airport ... one of the whole reasons for operating a BA609. The whole topic of IFR approaches and IFR separation for helicopters is a topic all on it's own. Agreed, with the advent of GPS, much more is possible, but flying commercial becomes somewhat more complicated when flying from building A to Heliport B in minimal weather conditions.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9674 times:

ya but think how much power or huge blades you would need to take a fully loaded 757 off the ground, the terminal might blow away

User currently offlineMike89406 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1466 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9674 times:

My understanding is that commercial developers want to use the tilt-rotor aircraft for regional flights in the future and thats probably the extent of that idea. I ran across a good arttcile about the commercial testing over a year ago but cannot seem to find it.



The V-22 got a real bad rap from the get-go falsification of maintenance records, and some really shady maintenance practices. I know that the plan was under a microscope since that, However I don't know enough facts personally to say whether it is worth it however here is some info on the aircraft.

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/v-22%20osprey.htm


User currently offlineBoeingluvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9674 times:

Oh yea, I bet we all would love to be on one of those during and engine failure.

User currently offlineHloutweg From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9299 times:

The BA609 could be the future of commercial aviation. But the X-Hawk is the future of civil aviation.





Such aircraft is being built and tested successfully by Urban Aeronautics. I doesn't look pretty either though.



In Varietate Concordia
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5413 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9299 times:

Quoting Hloutweg (Reply 16):
and tested successfully

It doesn't look like a prototype has been completed, let alone flown ... so I'm not sure what 'tested successfully' means ??

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2235 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9299 times:

A large airliner would need rotors the size of a stadium to lift off . There goes the space saving idea.  Silly

User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7411 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9299 times:

Has everybody altready forgot the mighty FAIREY ROTODYNE ?

Just 50 years ago it was laready considered as the "future of commercial Aviation" !!!

Take a look at this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9633v6U0wo


User currently offlineHloutweg From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9299 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 17):
It doesn't look like a prototype has been completed, let alone flown ... so I'm not sure what 'tested successfully' means ??

Sorry. I forgot to mention that the 'successful testing' statement came from Time magazine in an article that addresses several high technological developments from private companies. It was featured in a magazine released around a month ago. However, i haven't seen any real one flying only muck-up/prototype videos that you can find on youtube.



In Varietate Concordia
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9299 times:

The V-22 Osprey has given birth??  Wow!


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineFoxXray From France, joined May 2005, 384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9299 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 17):
It doesn't look like a prototype has been completed, let alone flown ... so I'm not sure what 'tested successfully' means ??

Jimbo

I think you have your answer... 3 prototypes are flying and the first one fly since 2003 !


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There is more than 100 BA609 on order, mostly for VIP purpose but for EMS/Rescue missions too.
Actually the problem is that there is no feedback with tilt rotor, many costumers are waiting to order until the first "helicopters" are fully operative into their specifics missions... lots of people are looking at it in USA but in Paris and London too !

I think it will be a very interesting machine because of its helicopters capabilities with Beech King Air cruising performance (but for the price of a BA609 you can get 4 Beech 200 Big grin ), but the present and future types from Eurocopter, Agusta, Bell and Sikorsky are becoming more and more performant so the future will tell us if it is a success.

Also presently i don't see any Tilt Rotors flying on regular commercial flights, it's too expensive, a 30 or 50 seats Tilt Rotor should be very very big, if they want to be more interesting than airliner they must take off from heliport situated in city center, so in Europe except Paris, London and Monaco, there is no "true" heliport !

But who knows, future will tell us...  Wink


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5413 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9299 times:

Quoting FoxXray (Reply 22):
I think you have your answer... 3 prototypes are flying and the first one fly since 2003 !

I was referring to the X-Hawk.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineFoxXray From France, joined May 2005, 384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9299 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 23):
I was referring to the X-Hawk.


Jimbo

Ok, sorry  Wink


25 Post contains images Falcon84 : I was thinking the same thing. I don't think it'll be commercial aviation, but more on the private sector, for businessmen and women who need to get
26 Gatechae : A lot of the V-22 Osprey's problems had to do with the nature of the design for the aircraft. It was developed under a military contract so Bell/Boein
27 Viscount724 : According to last week's Aviation Week & Space Technology, the first V-22s are enroute to Iraq (by sea), their first foreign deployment, almost 18 ye
28 Alberchico : So this civil BA609 , exactly what is the market for this airplane if corporate operators decide not to buy it ???
29 RayChuang : I think the BA609 will be more successful than people think, for one reason: its cruising speed is way higher than any conventional helicopter, and it
30 Post contains images Bond007 : When I said 'viable option' it was all relative It's only advantage over a helicopter seems to be speed ... much else is a disadvantage. I guess it's
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