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Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)  
User currently offlineARGinLON From Vatican City, joined Jun 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8352 times:

Has any of these airlines (DL, CO, US, NW) made any official announcements about LHR operations for 2008? If am not wrong, the IATA Summer flight schedule is due pretty soon.
Surely negotiations must be tough and long but I would have expected them to have something done by now.

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8352 times:

Quoting ARGinLON (Thread starter):
Has any of these airlines (DL, CO, US, NW) made any official announcements about LHR operations for 2008?

No idea about CO or NW, but Delta and Air France will hold a press conference come October 17th regarding the start of their Joint Venture, and it is expected that that conference will also be used to announce details of their cooperation from LHR, how many slots AF has given to DL, AF codesharing on DL's LHR flights, and other details.


User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8352 times:

The IATA Schedules meeting is the first week in November. Unlikely that we will hear any firm plans before then.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
how many slots AF has given to DL, AF codesharing on DL's LHR flights, and other details.

Sorry to be pedantic, but slots cannot 'be given' they can only be 'traded' in accordance with EU regulations and IATA's World Scheduling Guidelines.


User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2596 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8352 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 2):
Sorry to be pedantic, but slots cannot 'be given' they can only be 'traded' in accordance with EU regulations and IATA's World Scheduling Guidelines.

True. However if an AF/DL and/or a KL/NW joint venture is approved by the authorities than they will probably have the option to use any slot for any flight.

KLM is stopping with their LHR-RTM and LHR-EIN operation and it is widely believed that these 7 daily LHR slots will be utilized for transatlantic operations. All KLM transatlantic ops are joint ventured with NW, so I would expect that NW and/or KLM would be able to use these 7 daily slots for their upcoming LHR-transatlantic operation.



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12600 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8352 times:

Aer Lingus has leased at least one pair of slots to Continental, presumably for LHR-IAH.

There was actually a rumour earlier today that AF - ITSELF - was going to fly LHR-LAX!


User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8352 times:

Quoting PW100 (Reply 3):
KLM is stopping with their LHR-RTM and LHR-EIN operation and it is widely believed that these 7 daily LHR slots will be utilized for transatlantic operations.

KL may be ceasing their LHR-RTM/EIN services but they don't have 7 slot pairs. EIN is currently 2 x daily (Mo-Fri) and RTM is 3 x daily (but not all Sa/Su).

EIN slot pairs are arr/dep 0705 0815 and 1725 1830
RTM slot pairs are arr/dep 0715 0750, 1615 1705, 2015 2100

Good luck to anybody with a wide body, or even B757 wanting to use any of these pairs. At best they would have a late afternoon 65 minute turn. At worst an early morning 40 minute turn.


User currently offlineJcavinato From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8352 times:

A question I have about slots: Is it technically a permission to land/take off, is it a gate access, or is it a general permission to serve the airport? How is a slot technically defined?

I'd appreciate any light on this.


User currently offlineKL591 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2007, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8352 times:

Quoting PW100 (Reply 3):
KLM is stopping with their LHR-RTM and LHR-EIN operation and it is widely believed that these 7 daily LHR slots will be utilized for transatlantic operations. All KLM transatlantic ops are joint ventured with NW, so I would expect that NW and/or KLM would be able to use these 7 daily slots for their upcoming LHR-transatlantic operation.

Where do you get your info from PW100? It is also only 5 daily slots KL1332, KL1338, KL1340 for LHR-RTM and KL992, KL996 for LHR-EIN.

KL591


User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 763 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7291 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 7):
EIN slot pairs are arr/dep 0705 0815 and 1725 1830
RTM slot pairs are arr/dep 0715 0750, 1615 1705, 2015 2100

Good luck to anybody with a wide body, or even B757 wanting to use any of these pairs. At best they would have a late afternoon 65 minute turn. At worst an early morning 40 minute turn.

Does NW have to use exclusively these slots? Can't they simply use the 0715 arrival (RTM) and one 1000 departure (AMS) instead? Of course that would need to adjust some AMS flights, and even CDG now AF-KLM are a whole.
The other option is to get the whole RTM pair of slots 0715-0750 and try to trade the latter with any other airline.

Anyway. Does anybody have the schedule of terminal changes at LHR when T5 opens? If I'm not mistaken, only BA has published the 4 stages to move onto T5 and T3. Given flights for March onwards are now bookable, it would be interesting to know as transfer times can change if airlines swap terminals.

Edit: spelling

[Edited 2007-10-11 14:32:21]

User currently offlineRivet42 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 818 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7291 times:

Quoting Jcavinato (Reply 8):
A question I have about slots: Is it technically a permission to land/take off, is it a gate access, or is it a general permission to serve the airport? How is a slot technically defined?

It can be quite complicated, as each terminal has a capacity limit both in gate use and passenger numbers, so for example, if T3 is already at or above those limits for a particular time of day, it's very unlikely that anyone would be able to 'acquire' by whatever means available a large aircaft slot for that time. This means that in practice, it's not simply a case of AF/DL moving let's say a 10am A.320 slot from T2 to a 10am B.777 slot at T3... It will really depend on all those variables.

Whilst it may be possible to mix slots from different slot pairs, remember too that if the aircraft has to be moved off the gate whilst not in use, there will have to be somewhere to park it, so again it's not as simple as it sounds! I don't envy the slot planners...!  crazy 

Permission to serve UK/London/Heathrow is as far as I know something different, granted at the goverment level (at least prior to the new Open Skies deal).

Riv'



I travel, therefore I am.
User currently offlineJcavinato From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 6972 times:

Rivet, Thanks. So, in this case it might be both BAA with regards to utilization of, say, T3 as well as the UK government transport authorities with landing permissions at LHR.

I recall a few years ago the American FAA doling out slots at LGA. I never heard of terminal level slots in that matter.

So, again, I guess a slot is a permission of either a) the government transport authority, the airport authority, or terminal owner/operator.


User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2413 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 6972 times:

I sense there will soon be a huge over capacity on LHR-US flights. So many airlines are wanting to take advantage of the open skies treaty.

Quoting Aisak (Reply 10):
Anyway. Does anybody have the schedule of terminal changes at LHR when T5 opens? If I'm not mistaken, only BA has published the 4 stages to move onto T5 and T3. Given flights for March onwards are now bookable, it would be interesting to know as transfer times can change if airlines swap terminals.

Well, as soon as T5A and B opens, BA will completely leave T1 and T4. Also, T2 will be shutdown and demolished and the outer pier of T3 (the one with AA and UA flights) will be demolished. So, in order to make up for the lost gate space at T3 and the additional BA fights at T3, all non-alligned airlines will have to move to T4, along with SkyTeam. Also, the StarAlliance move to T1 will therefor have to happen at that time. The only exception to this is that SAS will stay in T3 for some weird reasons, and all A380 operators will have to stay in T3 until Heathrow East is built.

So, the massive airline terminal changes should happen at one time (with the exception of BA at T3).


User currently offlineAlbird87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6972 times:

I think you will find that also SQ and VA are staying at T3 for now also. They have too many flights a day to operate just out of T2 (as i beleive T4 is going to sky team plus other non Star Alliance partners).
All i can say is you may think that T5 will help but i feel its gonna get a lot worse before it gets better!! (unless ur travelling only on BA!)


User currently offlineAlbird87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6972 times:

I think you will find also that SQ and VA will be staying at T3 for now until Heathrow East gets built. I doubt that T1 has enough heavy gates for them (as T4 will be sky teams terminal plus other non Star Alliance partners). All i can say is T5 isnt going to make LHR anybetter just yet (unless your travelling on BA) and that its going to be chaos in the other terminals until Heathrow East gets built and that will calm things down a bit!!

User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 763 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6972 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 13):
Well, as soon as T5A and B opens, BA will completely leave T1 and T4



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 13):
So, the massive airline terminal changes should happen at one time

Well, That's not what BA says:

On March 28th BA will move to T5:
Short-haul Airbuses from T1
Long-haul from T1
Long-haul from T3 (MIA)
Short-haul from T4
But Euro-757 and GB airways will remain at T1 until July. Also long-haul flights from T4 will stay there until May and services to Australia won't move to T3 until September.

I suppose Iberia and Finnair will move to T3 along with BA in July and Qantas will do so in Septemeber but nothing has been published, neither by the airlines involved nor BAA. I'm just curious why such a delay from March to September. I just expected some movements in between by other airlines but... nothing?


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4073 posts, RR: 33
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6972 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 13):
So, the massive airline terminal changes should happen at one time (with the exception of BA at T3).

No. They will be phased slowly over the summer.
When BA moves to T5 in March, the first flights to move are all shorthaul operations except the B757 which will stay at T1. The Longhaul from T1 and T3 will move, but the rest of the T4 operation will stay at T4 for another month. At the end of April all Longhaul will move to T5 except the JSA operation to Australia.
The next airline to move will be United who will move out of T3 in May.


User currently offlineFlyTUITravel From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6972 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 7):
EIN slot pairs are arr/dep 0705 0815 and 1725 1830
RTM slot pairs are arr/dep 0715 0750, 1615 1705, 2015 2100

You could do a 0715 arrival and a 0815 departure? Would be tight but I'm sure NW could take the chance with a 752 to DTW just to get in at LHR. They could work with KL to swap some AMS slots around to handle bigger A/C.


User currently offlineEKskycargo370 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6972 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 13):

LHR meltdown here we come!


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7743 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6972 times:

Quoting Jcavinato (Reply 12):
Rivet, Thanks. So, in this case it might be both BAA with regards to utilization of, say, T3 as well as the UK government transport authorities with landing permissions at LHR.

The UK government has no direct influence or involvement in slot allocation or management at LHR. BAA, the airport owner, is a subsidiary of a Spanish construction company. An independent company, Airport Co-ordination Ltd, owned by a consortium of airlines, is responsible for slot allocation and monitoring slot usage, the imposition of fines for slot misuse and the confiscation and reallocation of slots. It operates strictly within regulations laid down by the EU and IATA. So UK government influence is only indirect through influence in a majority voting system of the 26 EU countries.

The only other influence the British government has at LHR and, indeed, LGW, STN and MAN is through the UK planning laws for, for example, a new or replacement terminal or a new runway. But here again it can only act as an instigator and a final arbiter and by changing the planning laws. Everything in between is either the responsibility of the airport owners or - in terms of interpreting the planning laws - the independent judiciary.


User currently offlinePilot21 From Ireland, joined Oct 1999, 1386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6972 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 13):
Well, as soon as T5A and B opens, BA will completely leave T1 and T4. Also, T2 will be shutdown and demolished and the outer pier of T3 (the one with AA and UA flights) will be demolished. So, in order to make up for the lost gate space at T3 and the additional BA fights at T3, all non-alligned airlines will have to move to T4, along with SkyTeam. Also, the StarAlliance move to T1 will therefor have to happen at that time. The only exception to this is that SAS will stay in T3 for some weird reasons, and all A380 operators will have to stay in T3 until Heathrow East is built.

So, the massive airline terminal changes should happen at one time (with the exception of BA at T3).

No, everything is happening in stages over the course of next year.

BA short-haul and long-haul from T3 will move when T5 opens next March. T4 will move at the end of April. B757's will go to T3, while all OZ flights will go there as well.

T2 demolition is hoped to be started in mid-summer 2008, but BAA have said that once T4 is vacated by BA (end of April 08) they will refurish it before anybody moves in (not sure what happens to KLM/Kenya etc), so that means T1 and T3 guys wil stay put until summer at least.



Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 763 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4198 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 11):
Well, as soon as T5A and B opens, BA will completely leave T1 and T4



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 11):
So, the massive airline terminal changes should happen at one time

Well, That's not what BA says:

On March 28th BA will move to T5:
Short-haul Airbuses from T1
Long-haul from T1
Long-haul from T3 (MIA)
Short-haul from T4
But Euro-757 and GB airways will remain at T1 until July. Also long-haul flights from T4 will stay there until May and services to Australia won't move to T3 until September.

I suppose Iberia and Finnair will move to T3 along with BA in July and Qantas will do so in Septemeber but nothing has been published, neither by the airlines involved nor BAA. I'm just curious why such a delay from March to September. I just expected some movements in between by other airlines but... nothing?


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4198 times:

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 13):
I think you will find also that SQ and VA will be staying at T3 for now until Heathrow East gets built

Yep, in SQ's case to accomodate the A380.

Roll on Heathrow East and all Star Airlines under one roof!


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4073 posts, RR: 33
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4198 times:

Quoting Aisak (Reply 14):
I suppose Iberia and Finnair will move to T3 along with BA in July and Qantas will do so in Septemeber but nothing has been published, neither by the airlines involved nor BAA. I'm just curious why such a delay from March to September. I just expected some movements in between by other airlines but... nothing?

After the initial move into T5, the next airline to move will be United out of T3. This space will then be refurbished to allow BA and Qantas (and others) to move in to T3. The One world operation in T3 will be large


User currently offlineBlueFlyer From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Jan 2006, 4196 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4198 times:
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Quoting Jcavinato (Reply 6):
A question I have about slots: Is it technically a permission to land/take off, is it a gate access, or is it a general permission to serve the airport? How is a slot technically defined?



Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 9):
it's very unlikely that anyone would be able to 'acquire' by whatever means available a large aircaft slot for that time.

A slot is related to runway capacity, not terminal/gate/parking capacity. You can technically have a slot to land and take off without having space to park the plane anywhere in between...

In fact, airport operator BAA has repeatedly said that it might be possible to add a few more daily slots at certain peak hours of the day, but that it wouldn't make any sense because parking/gate space is so severely limited that whoever gets the slot could be operating from different terminals on different days, and even offload at one terminal and board at another. In other words, getting slots is half of the problem. The other half is getting the physical space for the plane and its passengers.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4198 times:

Any slot 'trade' has to be approved by ACL (Airport Coordination Limited) the independent coordinator which manages LHR's slots. Their approval means that the trade is technically feasible. A trade of a 0715 F50 arrival slot at T4 for a 0715 B777 arrival at T2 may not meet the requirement that the new operation is feasible.

25 VV701 : Neither BAA or the British government have control or influence over slot allocation at LHR (or indeed at LGW, STN or MAN). Slots at these four airpo
26 Post contains images RDUDDJI : Allegedly...
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