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Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?  
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7091 posts, RR: 57
Posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7259 times:

Lots of rumours (BD crew) that BD have cancelled their latest A332 order (lease).

Can anyone confirm or deny...

If true, its yet another BD fiasco... How many times do they announce things, and then back down weeks later? I cannot believe that they fight for nearly a decade for open skies, and when it comes they go.. ehhh, not interested!


The world is really getting smaller these days
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEIRules From Ireland, joined Aug 2007, 750 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7260 times:

Unfortunately this is just typical of the kind of madness we have come to expect from BD. The only thing that will make this decision ok, if it is true, is if they anounce an order for an alternative L/H aircraft, but surely that wont be ready for years? This cant really be true, can it?


Next Flights: EI DUB-LHR A320, BA LHR-SFO B744, UA SFO-LAS A320, BA LAS-LHR B744, EI LHR-DUB A320
User currently offlineBmiexpat From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7260 times:

Becuase of the postponement of the launch of US flights from LHR until spring 2009, bmi have decided to defer the delivery of the new A330s by a year. This makes sense considering their concentration on the BMED merger and the desire to see what develops with other carriers to the US out of LHR rather than jump in and risk being burnt like they were with Mumbai.

User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7091 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7259 times:

2006
28 Mar bmi urges approval of EU–US open skies agreement
29 Jun UK and US governments should learn lessons of 20 years of European deregulation says bmi chairman
They even produce a report: http://www.flybmi.com/downloads/bmi/2020Reportfinal.pdf

2007
22 Mar bmi praises UK Government’s support of EU-US open skies deal
10 Jul bmi unveils $750 million fleet acquisition plan - five Airbus A330s ...



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User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7091 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7265 times:

Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 2):
risk being burnt like they were with Mumbai.

But BMI were 'forced' from Mumbai, or have you not drunk the BD spin yet again..

Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 2):
rather than jump in and risk being burnt

Normally airlines do their analysis first, then order aircraft. BD seem to do it the other way around.

Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 2):
postponement of the launch of US flights from LHR until spring 2009

"The transatlantic Open Skies decision will create genuine competition and enable bmi to provide services to the US from our operational hub at Heathrow from March 2008," he said.


2005

In October, following the re-start of EU/US talks on opens skies, bmi demands that the restrictive Bermuda II agreements be abolished. After follow-up talks in November, bmi welcome US proposals on relaxing ownership rules for US domiciled airlines


2004

In May, bmi chairman Sir Michael Bishop says the vested interests of BA and Virgin should not be allowed to block a landmark ‘open skies’ deal between the US and the EU


2001

In February, bmi british midland steps up its open skies campaign with the announcement that it would be seeking a European Commission review into the lack of competition on transatlantic routes from Heathrow



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User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4041 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7267 times:

Bmi have been campaigning for open skies for around a decade at least. They were lobbying for it when I worked for them back in 1998 !!!. Now Open Skies is finally here, they don't want to play ???. What did they expect when it got the go-ahead, for other airlines not to bother so they would have the pick of the routes ???.

 crazy 



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7091 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7267 times:

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 5):
What did they expect when it got the go-ahead, for other airlines not to bother so they would have the pick of the routes ???.

They DO have the pick of the routes, as they have all the heathrow slots. They even retrofitted their A332 seating to compete at heathrow. BD are running scared....

They are now flying to places Ryanair consider too remote! even on Moscow - (BA's cash cow flown with rust bucket 767's) - BD cant compete - with a better aircraft, better service, better crew.


Whats Bmi's future?



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User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7267 times:

BMI hasn't placed any order as far as I know. The reality is there are no A332 available on the lease market so BD won't be part of open skies game. Should have planned fleet earlier.

User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7091 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7267 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 7):
reality is there are no A332 available on the lease market so BD won't be part of open skies game. Should have planned fleet earlier.

A bit like TLV - they make an announcement prior to even having the route rights?

BMI - latest 2007 booker prize nominee for fiction.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineTrekster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7267 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 6):
Whats Bmi's future?

No idea, and they have no idea either.

No one will forget the MAN-IAD flt with a white 757.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26863 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6695 times:

Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 2):
Becuase of the postponement of the launch of US flights from LHR until spring 2009, bmi have decided to defer the delivery of the new A330s by a year. This makes sense considering their concentration on the BMED merger and the desire to see what develops with other carriers to the US out of LHR rather than jump in and risk being burnt like they were with Mumbai.

I think they would be better concentrating on their new Ex: Bmed routes . Maybe they can make it more of a success than any new proposed USA flights. They need to settle down and stick to one vision. They do seem to be getting better than they were though.


User currently offlineAntixx From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6695 times:

Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 2):
Becuase of the postponement of the launch of US flights from LHR until spring 2009, bmi have decided to defer the delivery of the new A330s by a year. This makes sense considering their concentration on the BMED merger and the desire to see what develops with other carriers to the US out of LHR rather than jump in and risk being burnt like they were with Mumbai.

At last - someone on here with some sense! Yes, we all know that bmi was desperate for Open Skies and as soon as it was announced, they said they would go for it - however it also happened very soon after the acquisition of B|MED. Having evaluated what was best (for a change), they have opted to focus on the B|MED integration first and then look west to the States. That does not mean that the A332 order is cancelled - it is only deferred. The A332s which they could take early next year do not share the current fleet commonalities and quite rightly, they prefer to wait another 10/12 months until they can get the aircraft that fit into the current fleet structure. Very wise move, otherwise the costs involved would outweigh the benefits (eg everyone involved would require retraining, etc) and at least this way, they can see the dog fight from LHR begin and carefully pick and choose what they want to do - rather than diving into the market, as happened with Mumbai

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 6):
even retrofitted their A332 seating to compete at heathrow. BD are running scared....

Think you will find that the decision to refit was taken long before Open Skies came about!


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7091 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6563 times:

Quoting Antixx (Reply 11):
Think you will find that the decision to refit was taken long before Open Skies came about!

So, BD retrofitted the aircraft for non competition routes?

NO - BD retrofitted in anticipation of Openskies - which was well flagged this time around.

Quoting Antixx (Reply 11):
however it also happened very soon after the acquisition of B|MED

They ordered the aircraft after the acquisition announcement.

Quoting Antixx (Reply 11):
That does not mean that the A332 order is cancelled - it is only deferred

Just like the original A332 order deferral I wonder?

Quoting Antixx (Reply 11):
costs involved would outweigh the benefits (

So, why did they order the aircraft in the first place.

BMI - heathrows second largest airline, have all the slots needed, the aircraft on order - and allow others to capture the market!

No wonder my gold card will look silver in February - after 4 years of Gold.

[Edited 2007-10-11 15:00:43]


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4886 times:

What ever you are reading, is not true, BD are Still taking the 5 A332 but have had problems getting them, they will take them in 2009, I looked at the internal email about 5 hrs ago on the wall in the the BD/WW EMA staff room, also stated that the 1st A321 is due in May of next year.


NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlineAntixx From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4886 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):
So, BD retrofitted the aircraft for non competition routes?

NO - BD retrofitted in anticipation of Openskies - which was well flagged this time around.

Don't remember that being announced last year... before Open Skies! If they were only retrofitting for Open Skies, then why are the aircraft not being sent to LHR as of Summer 08?!? The product, especially in the Business, was becoming dated and Premium Economy was basically Economy with a few extra inches of legroom - it was about time the products were enhanced!

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):
They ordered the aircraft after the acquisition announcement.

When did I say otherwise? First came B|MED, then came Open Skies and then came the order. They thought they could do everything, however they have learned some very valuable lessons from the B|MED integration and sensibly have come to the decision to look East first, then West later - which you are now highly critical of. At the time though, if they had come straight out and said they would wait until 2009 to go transatlantic ex-LHR, you would no doubt have slaughtered them for that as well!

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):
So, why did they order the aircraft in the first place.

As said - they thought they could do everything but the B|MED integration has taught them a lot. The amount of work being undertaken to ensure a single AOC across the two fleets come Winter 07 is vast and the time and money being spent on crew training, etc is enormous - so while they could get some 330s come Summer 08, operating a 'mixed' fleet is more hassle than it's worth... hence the deferment until they get A332s that match current commonality.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):
BMI - heathrows second largest airline, have all the slots needed, the aircraft on order - and allow others to capture the market!

So what routes / rotations get the chop as they don't have slots sitting there doing nothing? And did they not just dive in to Mumbai with everyone else - and look what happened there!

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):
No wonder my gold card will look silver in February - after 4 years of Gold.

If they are so awful and badly managed, why don't you take a stand and send whatever card you've got back to them and only fly with other carriers!


User currently offlineBlrBird From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4886 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 7):
BMI hasn't placed any order as far as I know. The reality is there are no A332 available on the lease market

IT is slated to start receiving their first batch of 5 (332) ordered a while back and they dont have permission to fly abroad! they might lease those aircrafts.



from star dust....
User currently offlineLovinitflyboy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4886 times:

Quoting BlrBird (Reply 15):
IT is slated to start receiving their first batch of 5 (332) ordered a while back and they dont have permission to fly abroad! they might lease those aircrafts.

what on earth are you talking about???


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7403 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4886 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 6):
They DO have the pick of the routes, as they have all the heathrow slots.

They certainly have a substantial number of LHR slots - around 14 per cent of the total. But you cannot fit a quart into a pint pot. As part of their deal to absorb BMED BD will be adding eight aircraft to their fleet but will be transferring the 54 KJ LHR slots to BA. So effectively BD will have eight more aircraft flying out of LHR but no additional slots for them to use.

This means that they will need to transfer slots from their well established short haul routes to the new medium haul KJ routes. By replacing short haul services with medium haul services the impact on BD's short haul fleet will not be too severe. But there will be an impact. It means they will either have to run their LHR short haul fleet less efficiently than they have done in the past or transfer one or more likely two or possibly even three aircraft to operate out of another airport.

Clearly if they had decided to immediately persue the possibilities that Open Skies creates for them they would also have needed to transfer slots from their short haul to long haul fleet thus making more BD LHR based short haul aircraft redundant and, presumably, reducing the feed into other Star Alliance airlines sevices.

A final consideration is the Star Alliance itself. Open Skies offers the Alliance other opportunities and I am sure that BD management have been talking to the management of their partner airlines as to how best to exploit those opportunities with the slots and the aircraft that they have in their fleets.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13170 posts, RR: 77
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4886 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 6):
They are now flying to places Ryanair consider too remote! even on Moscow - (BA's cash cow flown with rust bucket 767's)

Last time I looked, that's up close in a hangar, our 767's were far from 'rust buckets'.

If BMI have issues with their A332's, they can give the UK Ministry Of Defence a call.


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3364 times:

To me it just seems BD have no marketing or route planning department. Unless the route is a monopoly like LHR-MME, or has tons of limitless traffic like LHR-DUB and LHR-MAN etc they don't seem able to hold their own.

They invest no money in any of their routes. Look at the money BA put into India with new special uniforms. And BD were originally selling JED and RUH like a holiday destination! There are no tourists allowed into Saudi Arabia.

BTW I think the thread title should be changed to "BMI may cancel A332 lease". It sounds like they found fault with the aircraft, not the fact they can't organise themselves.  Wink


User currently offlineBestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7091 posts, RR: 57
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3321 times:

Quoting Antixx (Reply 14):
why don't you take a stand and send whatever card you've got back to them and only fly with other carriers!

What a great attitude to have with a BD*G passenger who is loyal, and pays your wages. Why dont I send my card back - because I like bmi, the crew and onboard service. I also have nearly 200k hard earned bd points. The bd staff in the domestic lounge at heathrow know me by name - i'm one of the few who always say thanks when I leave the lounge apparantly. I have been silver or gold since 2000, flying short haul BD miles.

Its BD headoffice that are too removed from reality. Constant knee jerk reactions to everything - their strategy lasts six months - blame everyone else for their problems - press releases that push the boundries of truth. employment practices that push cabin crew and ground staff to breaking point. I could go on, but I just get annoyed, and fustrated that an airline with such potential is being run on a whim - remember 'tiny' fares at heathrow?

For example, BD have jumped into Bmed, when DME clearly isnt working, and as a result in taking on more than they can chew - they cannot take advantage of their biggest opportunity in decades - something well flagged, and executed prior to finalisation of the BMED transaction. (not announcement - finalisation). However, they went as far as ordering, and announcing the new A330's, and are now looking for an excuse.... eh - wrong commonality, eh - cant find them, eh - 'forced to drop BOM' blah blah.

Quoting GDB (Reply 18):
Last time I looked, that's up close in a hangar, our 767's were far from 'rust buckets'.

Oh, come off it - the BA euro767's are a disgrace - the aircraft are falling apart - ask any of the cabin crew. 1 overhead screen in four will actually work in colour. Yet BA can still fill 19+ rows of business to moscow.

Quoting Antixx (Reply 14):
And did they not just dive in to Mumbai with everyone else - and look what happened there!

Yet, were 'forced' to drop the market - Forced by who.. BTW - how is that court case with Airbus.

Quoting Antixx (Reply 11):
they could take early next year do not share the current fleet commonalities

So, what was the reason for ordering them six months ago. How much did it cost to defer the order?



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3204 times:

I like BD, just flown them again to Naples, used the lounge, I find all the staff well mannered prefessional and courteous, unlike some of my flights I have had on another large domestic carrier.

However in saying that IMHO BD have "lost" a little direction and keep chopping and changing what they are and arn't going to do, what routes to open etc. I am sure if LH were to buy SAS stake, things would be a whole lot different and they could as they should, become a powerhouse at LHR and MAN for that matter and be a force to be reckoned with.

Just my  twocents 


User currently offlineAntixx From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3160 times:

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 20):
What a great attitude to have with a BD*G passenger who is loyal, and pays your wages

Slightly off topic, but what do you mean? You don't pay my wages - am not staff, I'm BD*G too!

My question is though, if you like Midland so much, why do you slate them so much? Everyone kicked off when they introduced the New Business Model ex-LHR two years ago (indeed some on this site still moan about the fact that they can't get a free tea or coffee), but these days, it's the norm and expected. Let's cut them some slack, let them sort out B|MED first and then head for the States. They have a great longhaul product, even more so with the Business and Premium Economy enhancements and am sure when the time comes, the wait will have been worth it!


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
As part of their deal to absorb BMED BD will be adding eight aircraft to their fleet but will be transferring the 54 KJ LHR slots to BA.

Smart move ! Buy the airline, give away the one useful asset the airline has  Smile How are BD planning to fill these BMed routes ? To fill flights to Bishkek and Kharthoum you need LONGHAULL FEEEDDD !! BD has NO LONGHAUL FEEDDD ! These flights are going to be filled by the BA codeshare pax, that's how. Can anyone say "franchise operation" ?

Quoting Antixx (Reply 22):
Everyone kicked off when they introduced the New Business Model ex-LHR two years ago (indeed some on this site still moan about the fact that they can't get a free tea or coffee), but these days, i

The NBM is doing so well BD can't seem to give away their NCE flights. BA can fill 4 or 5 757's a day LHR-NCE (plus a LGW rotation) and BD can't even fill a 319 - and they lost the AF codeshare too because of the drop in service levels on board. Time for BD to join OS, LO etc as an LH feed-me clone.


User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3104 times:

I dont think BD actaully placed any firm order for these aircraft?

Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
But there will be an impact. It means they will either have to run their LHR short haul fleet less efficiently than they have done in the past or transfer one or more likely two or possibly even three aircraft to operate out of another airport.

I think this is an interesting point, and it does open up a significant new oppertunity for BD. The logical place to operate these would be MAN? Flying to major business destinations and offering connections to the long haul services But where can BD fly to that wont step on the toes of *A partners, and/or WW? I guess they could target some of the Jet2 routes, but a lot of these are very leisure orientated, and should not fit in with the current strategy. Perhaps WW could move off some roues at MAN, and focus seriously on BHX?

Alternitively these potentially 'spare' aircraft could be sent to scotland to launch new european services from there. This is thr problme with so many brands and products in such a small airline, thisng start getting complicated.

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
25 Bestwestern : So, when they announced the order they were telling fibs? So, when they announced the deferral, what were they deferring? Whats the difference in ser
26 Zkojh : well, they need something to fly, the following routes, which are identfied as key markets for bd, Kiev, Minsk,, Kuwait City, Lahore, Tel Aviv, Dammam
27 JGPH1A : Drop BGI and LAS for LHE and DMM ? Are they nuts ? LAS and BGI might both be leisure destinations (although LAS has a fair bit of business/convention
28 BestWestern : Well, now that you come to say it. Another BD route announced, but never flown. Way too small for anything but a BBJ
29 BrianDromey : No, but I dont believe that they place the order directly with Airbus? I understood that tehy were leasing the A330s? I dont think a firm time for de
30 Bmiexpat : Given the proliferation of announcements regarding other airlines launching flights next summer from LHR to the states, I think it's a good job that b
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