AA777ER From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 30 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7732 times:
AMRs 2Q FCF is running 7.2 Million/Day......................................
Restoring the AA Pilots Wages Plus CPI.............Will Cost $1.5 Million more/Daay or $5/PAX or a Starbucks Latte !
GET OVER IT.....................
We will NOT subsidize the Traveling Public moving forward !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Airline Industry Select a New Industry
1-33 of 33 companies. Data as of 10/10/2007
Ticker Name Qtrly Free Cash Flow TTM Free Cash Flow
MktCap Weighted Average 231.178 490.890
UAUA UAL Corporation 956.000 1,735.000
AMR AMR Corporation 659.000 1,422.000
LUV Southwest Airlines Co. 638.000 9.000
CAL Continental Airlines, Inc. 592.000 756.000
BAIRY British Airways plc (ADR) 322.101 2,273.052
DAL Delta Air Lines, Inc. 282.000 461.000
LCC US Airways Group, Inc. 234.000 294.000
NWA Northwest Airlines Corporation 233.000 962.000
CEA China Eastern Airlines Corp. Ltd. (ADR) 222.292 374.663
RYAAY Ryanair Holdings plc (ADR) 215.890 396.967
ZNH China Southern Airlines Limited (ADR) 213.305 419.548
ALK Alaska Air Group, Inc. 165.400 362.900
RJET Republic Airways Holdings Inc. 84.961 181.446
AKH Air France - KLM (ADR) 69.764 -378.718
MEH Midwest Air Group, Inc. 37.758 41.447
SA)">HA Hawaiian Holdings, Inc. 27.915 -126.323
MESA Mesa Air Group, Inc. 8.952 43.998
SKYW SkyWest, Inc. 8.509 36.067
GLUX Great Lakes Aviation, Ltd. .758 7.386
VGDAQ Vanguard Airlines -2.196 -.574
MAIR MAIR Holdings, Inc. -4.989 -11.459
AAWW Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc. -13.660 62.578
AAI AirTran Holdings, Inc. -21.564 -73.563
XJT ExpressJet Holdings, Inc. -26.680 37.234
PNCL Pinnacle Airlines Corp. -39.923 269.881
FRNT Frontier Airlines Holdings, Inc. -62.537 -187.726
LFL Lan Airlines S.A. (ADR) -92.481 -492.118
DLAKY Deutsche Lufthansa AG (ADR) -115.324 504.008
GOL GOL Linhas Aereas Inteligentes SA (ADR) -121.523 -263.388
JBLU JetBlue Airways Corporation -135.000 -559.000
TAM TAM S.A. (ADR) -282.996 -334.171
CPA Copa Holdings, S.A. NA NA
KLMR KLM Royal Dutch Airlines (ADR) NA NA
Laxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22024 posts, RR: 51 Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7732 times:
Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter): Restoring the SA)">AA Pilots Wages Plus CPI.............Will Cost $1.5 Million more/Daay or $5/PAX........................
Thanks for the union propaganda.
$5 might sound simple, however you very know the industry is very competitive with little pricing power.
Number one selection criteria for consumers is price, so the airline that offers the cheapest options gets the business.
So if AA were raise fares across the board by $5 as the APA alleges, it would very quickly find loads drop as other carriers continue to offer cheaper options.
Coming up with an extra $550mil annually is far from as simple as the APA would like to make it sound.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21025 posts, RR: 60 Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7732 times:
Ah, the devoted enthusiast who angrily tells the rest of the world how they owe him money.
But, you know what? I can say the same thing!
"We, the flying public, will not subsidize the ridiculous union payscales that pay a 30 year senior pilot too much money just because he/she's old."
We are tired of paying too much to fly when it is so unreliable.
The airline employees owe us! They should voluntarily take even more pay cuts and smile while doing so!
After all, isn't that what you are telling us? That we should just smile and pay $5 more per segment so that you can get your OVERPAID wages back? You were overpaid in 2000. You were overpaid in 2003. Now you are fairly paid, and it's not fair and you want everyone else to pay?
If anyone needs to "get over it" it's the AA pilots. You have a good salary, a good job, and you bitch.
As of today, in my industry, I can no longer find work because all production is shutting down. Period. There is a strike 2 weeks away, and already work has stopped. And my lovely union is trying to shut down industries that they don't even deal with (internet and animation).
So be thankful you still have a high paying job and stop living in the past. The world has changed, and it's not OUR fault you can't deal with it!
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
PA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1950 posts, RR: 26 Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7732 times:
This is just insane. The current crop of airline CEO's need to be taken out and shot for even thinking of these measures. These so-called ancillary services were one of the few things keeping revenue coming in the door. What happens to the airline once these services have been sold off, the profits squandered, and another economic down-turn comes their way? Nothing to fall back on? Bye Bye Airline! Unbelievable. I can't believe these clowns are allowed to run airlines. These guys are starting to make Ken Lay look positively honorable.
ACVitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 921 posts, RR: 13 Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7732 times:
Interesting approach. Sadly at odds with the free market economy.
There is a series of mistaken assumptions....
1. Airline can raise fares arbitrarily and passengers will still fly in the same numbers.
2. Airlines can raise fares and all airlines will match
3. Employees like AA pilots are entitled to a higher wage and that market dynamics will not apply
4. Shareholders and the company have no right to recoup the billions lost during economically weak time.
5. The economy is going great and will support the continued traffic/yields.
I would say the author of the original post has a very myopic view of the real world.
Sadly, Many including myself believe;
1. History clearly shows as yields increase the loads decrease along with overall revenue. (The Southwest airlines effect is based on the opposite and has proven to work.)
2. History clearly shows that airlines do not hesitate to undercut each other to gain market share and if they cooperated with each other to raise fares they would be guilty of anti-trust measures. In fact the basis of the capitalistic model is that competition will continue to cause lower costs, or addl features for the same or lower price points. Collusion is illegal and violators are guilty of anti-trust. The weak shall perish and the strong survive. If AA costs go too high (overpaid employees) then they will perish along with all the employees jobs. Think Pan Am, TWA, Eastern, and many others who were all #1 at various points in history.
3. AA Employees are asking for significantly more then market wages. They are basing the assumptions on the ridiculous wages agreed to in 2000 that were the reason the industry was in trouble prior to 9.11.01. The reality is that LCC's and others have proven that the market wage should be significantly lower.
4. Shareholders, Debt holders, Bondholders and others are trying to recover their losses. The management in the financial area knows that if you mess with them and jerk them to help the employees then you might as well close the doors as you will never get another bond issue, lease, terminal etc done.
5. The US economy is in trouble and the US dollar as well. Read the front page of today's Wall Street Journal.
It is so sad when these folks go forward believing they have all the answers with a myopic view rather then looking at the full picture. That being stated there are big issues with excessive executive compensation. The US corporate world is about to see some significant changes in the next decade with conspicuous consumption and those who look after themselves first becoming accountable to boards and shareholders.
Pnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2046 posts, RR: 12 Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7586 times:
Here we have an example of the attitude of many employees of airline companies. This is the reason that the US Airlines are struggling and have such a deserved bad rap. Can you imagine a F/A with the attitude that he/she is subsidizing your travel as you sit there, having paid for that seat? You look at that FA wrong and bam will you suffer. I am not saying that the pilots/FA/ or whoever have a case for better pay or better conditions, that is a whole other issue. But once you start blaming your customers who keep your paycheck coming in the door you are in the wrong industry and your shortsightedness will result in your job evaporating.
ATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1018 posts, RR: 4 Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7586 times:
Is this a joke? Suggest deletion of entire thread.
Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter): We will NOT subsidize the Traveling Public moving forward !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is the kicker. Yes please AA . . . CHARGE ME MORE!
TVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2199 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7586 times:
I think AA should go along. Then AA will fail and we can take care of some of that excess capacity by allowing it to go Chapter 7.
777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3033 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7587 times:
You know, I'm an AA elite FF with a hundreds of thousands of miles earned, and I find this behavior appalling.
AA's greedy unions make more than anyone else in the industry and yet they want their wages restored. Guess what? Your wages should be based on today's economy, not the economy of 10 years ago. The glory days of pre-9/11 are gone and past. And if you want to start pointing fingers for the state of air travel today, look no further than Skybus and WN. Your respective legacy employer can't keep up when your unions are bleeding them dry, especially when they're already at a disadvantage due to their cost structure.
AA777ER From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 30 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7587 times:
In April of 2003, the pilots of American Airlines ratified a concessionary contract with the goal of keeping our company out of bankruptcy.
AMR's position in 2003 was partially the result of the collapse of the airline industry in the wake of 9/11. However, a series of disastrous decisions by AMR management- from ill-advised purchases and attempted purchases of other carriers to poor marketing decisions to expensive stock buy-backs- exacerbated our company's financial woes.
The pilots of American Airlines stepped up and saved the AMR corporation from impending financial disaster with a series of massive concessions. This contract provided the AMR corporation with an estimated $1 billion in annual savings in the areas of pay, productivity, and benefits. Some pilots suffered pay cuts as severe as 50%- all American pilots, who had not enjoyed a pay raise since 2000, suffered tremendous personal and financial hardship.
At the time the contract was ratified, the pilots were assured that they would share in any future successes of the company that they preserved.
Within a year of the 2003 crisis, AMR was back on firm financial footing, paying down debt, restoring the balance sheet, and building a large cash cushion.
Management pay was restored to pre-2003 levels by late 2004 and bonus plans took effect.
As AMR became profitable in 2006, the top 1000 managers began to receive bonuses that would total over 250 million dollars by April of 2007, with the majority going to the top 50 managers. In 2006, the top 5 AMR managers received $33.9 million in compensation, 29% more than the next highest management team in the industry. At the same time, the pilots have not shared in the recovery of our airline as promised.
The pilots of American Airlines as represented by the Allied Pilots Association are presently in contract negotiations with AMR. The APA has set a goal of recovering the investment made in 2003, with a focus on the following areas:
Hourly pay rates that restore lost purchasing power
Recovery and improvement of work rules
Preservation and enhancement of retirement benefits
Variable compensation that provides a true stake in future success
To date, the AMR corporation seems unwilling to entertain any proposals that do not constitute further concessions.
The APA Negotiations Web site will provide factual information related the the ongoing negotiations, updates on the status of the negotiations via email, and a point of contact for additional questions.
Thank you for your interest in the contract negotiations between APA and AMR.
AA777ER From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 30 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7586 times:
AMR managers received over $260 million in bonuses between April 2006 and April 2007. If divided amongst the pilots this would equal an approximate average pay raise of 11% per year over those two years.
American Airlines flew 4.2% fewer block hours in 2006 than in 2000 with 30% fewer pilots. American pilots fly over 20% more now than they did 6 years ago. (Source: APA Internal Analysis)
American Airlines International reserve pilots are required to be on call to the company for 19 days per month, 24 hours a day. (Source: APA/AMR Collective Bargaining Agreement)
American Airlines pilots produced 9.2% more domestic revenue passenger miles per pilot and $600,000 more in revenue per pilot than Southwest pilots in 2006, according to Department of Transportation Statistics. (Source: DOT form 41 statistics)
American Airlines has finished an average of 8th out of 11 industry competitors in Survey America comparisons over the last four years. Pilot performance bonuses are heavily based on these statistics- management bonuses are not. (Source: Survey America, SEC filings)
American Airlines pilots must requalify every nine months by completing an extensive series of emergency scenarios in advanced aircraft simulators. Failure to do so results in termination.
Airline Captains, and those First Officers who have Pilot-in-Command responsibility, must requalify medically every six months. Failure to meet stringent standards means removal from flight status.
Only a small number of airports have the facilities that allow an airliner to "land itself" using the autopilot. The vast majority of poor weather approaches are completed by pilots "hand-flying."
Pilots avoid thunderstorms and other hazardous weather themselves through the use of airborne weather radar. Correct radar technique takes years of experience to perfect. The energy in a typical summer thunderstorm is more than sufficient to severely damage or destroy an airliner.
The average AA pilot has over ten years of specialized education, including military, corporate, and/or airline flying experience, prior to being hired at American.
Between January and July of 2007, American Airlines had 205 flights that were delayed more than three hours between gate departure and takeoff, 57% more than the airline with the next highest number of delayed flights. (Source: DOT website)
Luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 11957 posts, RR: 51 Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7586 times:
It always amazes me how they did it to save AMR, well you did it to save your job! Which you still have.
Skibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7586 times:
AA777ER, instead of posting the union propoganda, why don't you tell us your opinion on the matter? Can't you speak for yourself?
SkyyMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7586 times:
Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 8): and we will not pay your wage by buying a ticket, see how that works? you work for customers, not for the Union.
Amen. Hasn't this horse been beaten to death in another thread? If you union guys are tired of working for an airline at your current wage scale, no one is holding a gun to your head. There are other jobs to be had and there are lots of people out there who would gladly take your places. It's not my fault as a passenger that you don't make what you think you should. The "glory days" of working for airlines and making big bucks is over. People can accept it or move on. Militant unions have killed lots of companies including airlines. Just because yours may be the biggest, it does not make you immune from standing in the unemployment line if you aren't willing to deal with the realities of air travel today. There are plenty of other choices for us pax out there and more on the way. Most people I know no longer hold blind loyalty to a single airline anymore and are willing to change if they continue to get the surly "you passengers owe me" attitude.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26682 posts, RR: 83 Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7586 times:
AA and all the other legacies should just give stock options to the employees, as well. Then that way if all their hard work improves the stock price, then they get to share in the spoils as well, instead of just management.
And management just needs a solid salary (I don't care if it is millions of dollars) and greatly-reduced stock options so management is not driven to raise the stock price at all costs so they can make their load.
But if AA passengers will not pay $5 more per flight for MRTC, they are very unlikely to pay $5 for higher wages for the staff, especially since so many of the complaints about AA - and the other legacy carriers - is centered directly on the staff.
AA777ER From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 30 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7586 times:
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10188 posts, RR: 63 Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 7314 times:
Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter): We will NOT subsidize the Traveling Public moving forward
Then you won't be employed moving forward. That's pretty simple.
Quoting PA110 (Reply 3): What happens to the airline once these services have been sold off, the profits squandered, and another economic down-turn comes their way?
I assume you're referring to investors pressuring airlines like AMR to sell assets like AAdvantage, etc. In AMR's case, though, management doesn't want to sell them - of course, if the unions keep this bullsh*t up, they may have no choice.
Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): However, a series of disastrous decisions by AMR management- from ill-advised purchases and attempted purchases of other carriers to poor marketing decisions to expensive stock buy-backs- exacerbated our company's financial woes.
Would you care to enlighten us on exactly which "disastrous decisions" AMR management made in time immediately before 9/11. TWA may seem like one now - in hindsight - but pre-9/11, that was one of the smoothest deals in airline history: AA was getting tons of assets worth of value for penny on the dollar.
Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): The pilots of American Airlines stepped up and saved the AMR corporation from impending financial disaster with a series of massive concessions.
Well, thank God for the pilots then. Where would AA be without them?! Those stupid, useless flight attendants, mechanics, gate and ticket agents, office workers, secretaries, and sales reps just sat around and ask for more - me, me, me - but thankfully those selfless pilots really stepped up to the plate!
Do you honestly hear yourself say this crap before you type it?
Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): Some pilots suffered pay cuts as severe as 50%- all American pilots, who had not enjoyed a pay raise since 2000, suffered tremendous personal and financial hardship.
And that sucks, it really does. But seeing as pilots - on average - already earn far more on average than the average American, and certainly the average airline employee, its a bit harder for me to be sympathetic for their situation when their flight attendants with the same seniority literally make 1/4 of what captains make. I have no doubt it's caused tremendous personal and financial hardship for pilots - losing pay has a tendency of doing that for everyone.
But that's life, and that's reality. Should companies just go through history, never changing anything, and never making adjustments to labor costs to satisfy the market, just because they might "upset" people?
Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): At the time the contract was ratified, the pilots were assured that they would share in any future successes of the company that they preserved.
As they have.
Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): Management pay was restored to pre-2003 levels by late 2004 and bonus plans took effect.
Management pay hasn't been restored to anything, as pay hasn't really changed that much in the last four years for management - especially the VPs.
The stock options that management was granted was not granted in 2004, or 2007, but all the way back in 2003, and they were granted on the basis that they would be absolutely worthless unless management delivered strong financial performance and boosted the stock price. With the huge help from labor concessions plus - minor detail - a bit of sound, prudent fiscal decision-making, management has done just that.
But again, just as I said in the other thread, this whole ridiculous proposition by some overly-emotional pilots that management just decided to give themselves raises because of what a great job they were doing is just completely false on two counts: 1) management didn't decide anything - these bonuses were set by the Board of Directors, and 2) these stock options were only worth anything if management did one thing and one thing only: boost the stock price. And they did just that. But back in 2003 when they were granted, there was at least a 50/50 shot as to whether AMR would be able to survive and the stock price would go up. As it turns out, the stock price skyrocketed, and AMR managers got rewarded - as did pilots and all other full-time U.S. employees on payroll, but will get to that.
Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): In 2006, the top 5 AMR managers received $33.9 million in compensation, 29% more than the next highest management team in the industry.
Well, seeing as the top 5 AMR managers' base pay has been for about the last decade significantly lower than the industry average - and dramatically, dramatically lower than companies of similar size to AMR outside the airline industry, I'd say that's not really that big of a jump.
Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): At the same time, the pilots have not shared in the recovery of our airline as promised.
Oh that's just bullsh*t and you know it.
Pilots have "shared" in the recovery of AMR more than any other single workgroup, by far. The stock options alone that the pilots were granted, if they played their cards right, is more than some of the level 4 managers at AA got from the bonus plan. The options AMR gave each pilot were potentially worth over $33,000. Not to mention profit-sharing, which each and every full-time pilot is going to get next year, and it is probably going to be fairly substantial. And not to mention the granddaddy of all sacred airline pilot perks: their multi-million-dollar pensions, which every single AMR pilot still has. Every single pilot's defined benefit pension is still there, and still being fully funded by AMR, unlike at any single other airline in the U.S. As you and I both know that some pilots' cash-out upon age 60 retirement is in the $3-4 million range, I wouldn't be complaining too much if I was you.
I'm sure you could find a few pilots - to say nothing of other employees - at airlines like USAirways and Northwest that would kill to have been able to "share in the recovery" of their airlines as well as AMR's pilots have been able to share in the recovery of AA.
I suppose you could say that, as the saying goes, "the grass is always greener," but looking around at your peers at other airlines, AA777ER, I have to ask you: could you actually give us an example of a single other pilot workgroup at another major U.S. airline that you feel has a better total compensation package - salary, benefits, profit-sharing, stock options, pension - than you and other AA pilots? Just one.
JFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1381 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7314 times:
Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter): Will Cost $1.5 Million more/Daay or $5/PAX or a Starbucks Latte !
From the airline that took away one olive from each meal to save a few bucks......You give us back our olive and you can have my Starbucks......
Every other Legacy has made strides since 9/11 in regards to adjusting to the "post 9/11" era, As has been mentioned already, AA seems to be on the top of everyone's complaint list.......Maybe its time AA look at theirself before coming after the consumer.
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10188 posts, RR: 63 Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7314 times:
I'm not saying it's fair, or comparing it with the situation now, but it is kind of funny and this thread eerily reminded me of it.
Does anyone else remember this little gem from a few AA-APA negotiations ago, back in the mid-1990s?
Still gets me every time.
>>>
HELP FEED THE PILOTS
It's just not right. Thousands of pilots in our very own country are living at or just below the six-figure salary line. And if that wasn't bad enough, many of them may go several weeks or months without a paycheck if they are forced by AA management to strike.
But now you can help. For about $300 a day--that's less than the price of a 25" television set--you can help keep a pilot economically viable during his time of need.
Three hundred dollars a day may not seem like a lot of money to you, but to a pilot it could mean the difference between a vacation fishing in Florida or a Mediterranean cruise.
For you, $300 is nothing more than a half-month's rent or mortgage payment, but to a pilot $300 a day will almost replace his salary. Three hundred dollars a day will enable a pilot-in-need to upgrade his home computer, buy that CD player for his car, or enjoy a dinner at The Mansion.
"How will I know I'm helping?"** Each month, you will receive a complete financial report on the crew member you sponsor. Detailed information about his stocks, bonds, 401K, and real-estate holdings will be mailed to your home. You will be able to watch your pilot's net worth grow.
"How will they know I'm helping?" Your pilot will be told that he has a SPECIAL FRIEND within AMR management who just wants to help. Although the pilot won't know your name, he will be able to make collect calls to your home via a special operator, in case he needs additional funds.
I want to help. In the event of a strike by the APA, I would like to sponsor the crew member listed below (circle your selections):
**PILOT
**COPILOT
**NAVIGATOR
**F-100 CREW MEMBER
**SUPER-80 CREW MEMBER
**757 CREW MEMBER
**767 CREW MEMBER
**MD-11 CREW MEMBER
**AN ENTIRE FLIGHT CREW
**Please apply my donation to the crew member most in need.
Please charge the account listed below $326.25 per day ($350.22 for MD-11 crew members) for the duration of the strike. Please send me a picture of the crew member I've sponsored, along with a set of "wings" and my very own SCOPE badge.
( ) Mastercard
( ) Visa
( ) American Express
( ) Diner's Club
( ) AAsset Card
Send completed forms to the APA, or enroll by phone:
800-APA-PILOT.
Note: Sponsors agree not to contact the crew members or their families in person or by other means including, but not limited to, telephone calls, letters, E-mail, or third persons. Contributions are not tax-deductible. In the event no strike occurs, sponsors agree to a one-time administrative charge of $500 to cover the administrative costs of this program.
ACVitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 921 posts, RR: 13 Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7314 times:
If AA777ER is so unhappy he is free to work anywhere else. The beautiful part of the USA is that he can go to work in aviation consulting, open a business, or flip fries.... OR deal with the reality that business changes and we are in a capitalistic economy.
AA777ER have you ever owned a business? Was it successful? Did you have employees?
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21025 posts, RR: 60 Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7314 times:
Quoting ACVitale (Reply 24): If AA777ER is so unhappy he is free to work anywhere else.
He can even work for another airline, right now!
I wish my industry was like that. When our Writer's Guild of America union leaders decide to strike, nobody is allowed to work anywhere, and anyone who does will be banned from the union for life. This means that as soon as the contract is signed, be it a week or a year later, anyone who works in the interim will NEVER WORK IN THE INDUSTRY AGAIN, or at least never be allowed to write for television or any studio film (where the real money is). Period.
And we work freelance in the first place. We are independent contractors who are still banned from working, even if we are not union members (and many of us aren't because we aren't allowed to join until they say we can). So, we have no chance to earn income during our strike in our field, and those who aren't yet union don't even get any of the strike fund to tide us over.
So before you pilots bitch about how underpaid you are for working far fewer hours a month at a secure job at one of the highest payscales in your industry, think about how absurd you sound to those of us who are not as lucky to be as poorly treated as you are.
In other words, get a life!
That is all.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 SEATTLE OPS: I think someone's been hitting the cool-aid a little hard recently! Are your current leaders willing to be hit with multi-million dollar court judgeme
26 Silentbob: I would go with: "Now you are less overpaid..."
27 FlyDreamliner: here is an idea... Arpey and crew up in the board room should do it, tack on a $5 pilot surcharge to give the pilots their raise. next month they can
28 ATLAaron: You are a pilot at AA? This should make all of you a little nervous next time you are flying AA.
29 LTBEWR: One of the greatest problems leading to the massive pay cuts in the legacy airline industry and the difficulty in restoring some of them are the retir
30 Itsnotfinals: they did nt receive cash they received stock options which vest over a 4-5 year sliding scale and is paid only when the stock is sold , and in 5 year
31 Itsnotfinals: Next time you go into McDonalds make sure you pay 9.84 for your number 1 combo meal so the workers there can make more than 7 dollars an hour also. I
32 PITRules: Just curious, what should an FA make in comparison to a Captain?
33 MaverickM11: Boy you've got a lot of outrageous and misplaced chutzpah. They also cured cancer, invented the internet, and died for your sins. I managed to find a
34 EA CO AS: Y'know, I'm very much a supporter of pilots - but AA's guys better PRAY this never goes before an arbitrator, because a quick look at the payscales sh
35 MEA-707: lol, you don't understand anything about capitalism, right? Travellers have a choice. Do you go to a supermarket who charges 20% more for the same go
36 Ogre727: But why should the passengers pay for this? this is not solving the problem at all. Basically you are saying it pisses you off that the money is goin
37 Commavia: It's not for me to say - it's up to the market to dictate. But if I had my way, the flight attendants would make just as much or more than the pilots
38 777STL: Great! Do you work for Southwest? Thought not, then its irrelevant. Pay is based off of seniority at WN, not the size of the aircraft flown. You're c
39 Commavia: Um, minor detail: that might have something to do with the fact that Southwest only flies one airplane, with a size variance between aircraft variant
40 MattRB: By going into bankruptcy, renegotiating their costs and dumping their pensions (thereby screwing the employees who had faithfully paid into the progr
41 Commavia: Exactly. At the monthly minimum of 64 hours for a pilot with enough seniority to hold lines, that equals - for example - an average annual salary (as
42 Pope: Seems to me that your union did a piss poor job negotiating. If I were the union negotiator, I'd walk in with one and only one demand. The pilots wil
43 MaverickM11: Weren't they offered similar stock compensation but turned it down in favor of hard compensation?
44 Commavia: No, they actually got stock option compensation. Each APA member got over 900 stock options with a $5 strike price, meaning that if pilots exercised
45 Itsnotfinals: in the US Pensions are 100% paid by the company and are not required to be offered to employees. The vast majority of employees in the US have no pen
46 SkyyMaster: What gripes me about the comment of the thread starter and those who are whining about their pay is that they feel an entitlement to have their pay re
47 N710PS: Ha the attitude of entitlement. Now theres someone who does not get it. WOW you pay a whopping $159.00 to fly from New York to Savannah and YOU want
48 Itsnotfinals: You should be making 35 an hour or more Regional pilots are way underpaid. Captains at AA though? the days of $200 a hour for AA senior pilots are ov
49 Luv2fly: Why not just give each employee there own personal tip jar!! Hell we already check ourselves in and print our own boarding passes, why not tag the lug
50 MaverickM11: But with demands for a 30% wage increase from an already very good salary, look for UAVs at an airport near you soon! Or UAAVs rather
51 Ckfred: Remember that it's large investors that are try to "unlock shareholder value" by forcing sell offs of FF programs, regional carriers, and maintenance
52 Aogdesk: Once he gets to LHR, he'll probably copy and paste something from the union about how his experience on the flight deck trumps business experience. A
53 Commavia: To say nothing of members of the flying public. If the APA wants to make this a really public catfight P.R. battle with AMR, they're going to have to
54 Access-Air: Except when it came to ALL the airlines cutting Travel Agent commsions...They seemed to be protected by some sort of thing but the funny thing was th
55 777STL: Uhh yes, no kidding, that was implied. Hence why his comparison in invalid. He should be comparing himself to DL, UA and CO, not WN.
57 PC12Fan: I haven't flown on AA since November 2003.
58 EXAAUADL: you really have no choice in that matter, if skybus comes along int oAA routes, youll have to match. and you think its bad now, wait till the LCC mod
59 Dw9115: Some of you pro-union people need to give the airlines more then one year to build a little cash up after 5 years of losses before you start to bleed
60 Mandala499: Communique 1: Dear AA777ER, You can't win everything! Signed, Everyone else Communique 2: Dear Everyone Else, Yes we can! We're a Union! Signed, AA777
61 Pnwtraveler: I hope a certain Canadian airline's employees and unions are reading this. The backlash from travelers listed above is a huge clue and warning as to w
62 SPREE34: I guess those self canceled. They do more work in a day of flying compared to KXXX-EGGL. 110-137 PAX X 5 legs = 550-685 PAX in one day vs your 250-28
63 Desh: No wonder I stopped flying AA - the attitude seeps all over ..... Well Said ........ Please clarify - what do mean by "between 70 and 50 people in my
64 777STL: I love how these pro-union types make it out like its the customer's fault. You know what, if you kill AA, that's fine. You're out of a job and I'll j
65 CALMSP: did AA77ER give up and not want to respond to anyone anymore??
66 N710PS: How about YOU clarify your statement/question because I take safety very seriously. Not to mention most of the people on this site who do not wish to
67 Iaddca: The AA product isn't worth another $5. And we won't subsidize you. No more stabilization act welfare checks, no more inflated pilot salaries, and wit
68 YULWinterSkies: Yet this is what oil companies do and it works. Of course it is illegal but how easy is it to be proven? And they actually do : has anyone managed to
69 ACVitale: Unfortunately, Divorce and other personal problems should not drive one's paycheck. The fact that they cannot manage their home life and they slept a
70 777STL: The way I see it, if the unions' get what they want, it'll just be that much longer before the actual, physical product is improved. That money has t
71 VonRichtofen: He's busy subsidizing a trip to LHR for a few hundred people.
72 SPREE34: How about a little slack. Not every one lives in front of their computer, even at work. Probably doing his job on the North Atlantic Tracks. He'll be
73 Ikramerica: It's mostly union, singular, in that the APA is the one making the unrealistic demands, both because of the scope, and because they are already well
74 SkyyMaster: I, the passenger, do not directly dictate what your employer chooses to charge me for my flight. The competition and the market does that. If I or an
75 777STL: Nothing against F/As(and I'm sure I'll catch a wrath of shit for this), but what they do isn't exactly rocket science. They should be paid what they'
76 Platinumfoota: I for one agree with AA777ER AA needs to reward their pilots for all their pay cuts they have taken and for saving the airlines, the airline has given
77 PITrules: Just when I think the thread starter is over the top, incorrect on many accounts, unrealistic, and just towing the union line, I have to read somethin
78 StarCityFlyr: Seems to me to be quite simple. If you want to pay your people more money, then you have to make the revenue up somewhere to pay it. Charge more for y
79 Ikramerica: Hey, I agree. F/As often do a great job, they are usually nice people, but it takes almost no education to be an F/A and the learned skill set is not
80 Iaddca: ...if it weren't for the welfare checks we taxpayers gave airlines through the stabilization act
81 VS11: AA777ER AA will have a lot of replying to do when he is back from London.
82 ACVitale: He will go to the APA union site and cut and paste the diatribe they spew. Expect no original, creative, logical responses. Too much kool aid has been
83 Ckfred: If passengers weren't willing to pay extra for MRTC, why would they pay $5 extra to pay the pilots? With MRTC, passengers got something tangible for t
84 Jamman: While I don't agree with your management getting these bonus' and I do believe you guys should be paid more when you perform don't make the traveling
85 MaverickM11: Well it looks like AA will at least get that $5 surcharge each way domestically "CHICAGO, Oct 12 (Reuters) - AMR Corp (AMR.N: Quote, Profile, Researc
86 XJETFlyer: I just remembered why I stopped flying AA. Grow up! AA employees need to add better service and better aircraft before they start asking for higher fa
87 SPREE34: No one gives them respect? I disagree. I respect them. (maybe it's a mutual thing) Are we talking about respect, or money? As a pilot I always felt l
88 Commavia: Hold on there, get down off the high horse. As I said - I never was minimizing the years of training and specialized skills it takes to be a pilot, a
89 UAL777: The road to being a pilot is alot harder than that of the average American, and flight attendant too... No he's not. All airlines operate on a senior
90 NYC2theworld: That doesn't change the fact that he, or any other pilot actually, has the ability to change professions if he feel that his talents and experience w
92 PITrules: Not on a high horse, just pointing out how it is ridiculous to say a Flight Attendant should make as much as a Captain. Do I need to quote you again?
93 Bucky707: Pilots get paid per flight hour. Break it down by hours on duty there are no pilots making 200 an hour. Wrong. FedEx has two pay rates, one for wideb
94 Indy: Fault in my opinion lies with the company and the consumer. For the company it is wrong to want the best equipment, the biggest hubs, the nicest termi
95 MattRB: I can't speak for everybody here, but don't assume that we're all pushing for unrealistic things come 2009. I'm just looking for a fair deal.
96 LAXintl: Jobs are commodities. Like the 7 or 8 figure checks executives get or not, those are the prevailing US market rates. Unlike pilots or many other avia
97 Ikramerica: Hey guys, watch as I counter all UAL777's silly arguments with reality... Enjoy. Wow. You are full of yourself. The road to being a pilot is NOT a lot
98 Indy: Capitalism is NOT using the courts to slash worker pay. Because it denies the other half of capitalism. It denies the workers a right to negotiate a
99 Mandala499: He's gone crying to the Union whining "the public has conspired against us!" That made my day! LOL ! Thanks!
100 LAXintl: Many of the legacy airlines had to resort to courts to slash pay as they got behind the 8-ball prior to 9.11 while other newer and successful carrier
101 UAL777: Reality you say? You obviously know nothing about the profession. I have worked a variety of jobs, including serving in the USMC. I will say that Parr
102 Indy: Using a court though has nothing to do with capitalism. Is that what someone with an MBA does? Run a business into the ground and then use the courts
103 N710PS: It is pointless. The vast majority on this site are enthusiasts and just enthusiasts. They care nothing more than to oogle at airplanes, take their be
104 Commavia: While I'm not saying this is the case because, as I've said already, it's for the market to decide - perhaps the fact that pilots had to take large p
105 LAXintl: I guess we differ on why businesses are run. I suppose you feel they are run for the benefit of the employee, while I know for a fact they are run fo
106 Indy: Oh I don't dispute what you say. However there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. Using the courts is the wrong way to do it. It is the respons
107 Commavia: That's unfair. There is plenty of blame to go around. Management, unions, terrorists, government bureaucrats - everybody had a part to play in gettin
108 Indy: I am proud to say I am loyal to one airline. With the exception of being an aviation geek and wanting to see what FL's biz class service was like or
109 Indy: Please pardon me if I come across as abrasive towards you. That is not my intention. Please don't take offense to it.
110 LAXintl: No worries.. We just see the same situation from different angles. Back to your comments in Reply 106; While you like to lay blame in the hands of ma
111 Indy: The setup for the financial problems started long before 9/11. I believe UA and US were in serious trouble prior to 9/11. You don't lead a business to
112 Iaddca: but it doesn't deny them the opportunity to earn a market wage, although I know many in the airline industry prefer Soviet bread line customer servic
113 SkyyMaster: So, you as a consumer would choose to fly an airline that charges more for a flight than an LCC would? Yes, in a way you can blame consumers for want
114 Sbworcs: I started work at 16 in an office and worked my guts out sometimes 2 or 3 jobs to pay for qualifactions and further education. It is only now I am 34
115 Cessna172RG: Well, I've read most of this thread and I would like to throw in my two cents: 1.) Pilots are underpaid. I think some people would agree with that. St
116 ACVitale: Skywest did NOT fire him for not flying. They fired him for writing profanities against the chief pilot on the wall and on a board! Actually, Many of
117 Mandala499: So, while the old boys try to keep their salaries up (and as per this post, blames us customers for not wanting to pay more for their salaries), the y
118 Okie73: since when does working harder translate to more money? The workers at my wifes company put together wheel assemblies in an un-airconditioned factory
119 ACVitale: I do not think anyone is knocking anyone. If you use your argument then the pilot comments on management are MOOT! The issue is.. Does AA which is al
120 Indy: It is management and not the pilots that negotiate equipment leases, pay rates, routes, terminal leases, etc. The pilots do not do that. It is the fa
123 XJETFlyer: Not all flights end up being safe sir! You are in the business of customer service, whether you like it or not! Yes your job is to fly an aircraft wh
124 ACVitale: According to airlinepilotcentral.com and willflyforfood.cc AA is at the top of the overall heap. Where is AA at in your mind after reviewing? Which c
125 Bucky707: Well, FDX, UPS and ABX all pay more. Southwest pays more for similar equipment. I know some argue that the equipment should not matter, but the fact
126 N710PS: To an extent this might be true but it will never ever come to fruit entirely as far as the commercial airline industry is concerned. Computers are s
127 Itsnotfinals: Management is also responsible for the middle east conflict and growth in China that has seen oil rise 400% in price as well as the global economy an
128 Indy: Oil prices started going up in 1998. This was well in advance of 9/11. Management is also responsible for product pricing. They are completely to bla
129 Itsnotfinals: You might want to take an ECON 101 class. This is not how a market economy works, you don't just raise prices because you want to in a comodity indus
130 Laxintl: Hey Indy, Out of curiosity whats your experience that leads you feel "management" is the cause of all ills? Also btw -- regarding product pricing, as
131 777STL: Yeah and guess what....when your money grubbing unions want more and more money, you have to charge more for your product to achieve the same revenue
132 UAL777: See here is the problem, you see the very TOP of the payscale. The most junior captain at AA was hired in 1991! That means you spend 18 years at FO p
133 777STL: Meanwhile a first year FO at a regional makes barely $20k/year, or probably a max of 1/3rd of what the most junior FO at AA makes. I'd imagine most F
134 Indy: I've worked in management before (not aviation) and we were (and rightfully so) responsible for all business decisions that ultimately effected profi
135 ACVitale: And Skywest had hired handwriting analysis experts as well whom determined it was his. Why not be honest. He had the motive, means, and the evidence
136 Itsnotfinals: The pilots are suppliers of labor, the union is asking for a raise, your costs are already out of line , what do you do? You can't raise your price b
137 Mandala499: Hence my answer: LOL!!! You can learn a thing or two from them, without becoming one of them! I guess it's that Dallas vs. Forth Worth ego issue! *J/
138 Indy: You don't give them a raise. You have to get creative in tough times if you want labor deals to go through. Pilots aren't stupid. They understand tha
139 Sbworcs: No - I am in the profession where I can get a job! The fact that it pays less than a Pilot is actually irrelevant I was trying to point out that just
140 Ckfred: Message to the APA. The UAW took a lot less than they were used to getting from GM and Chrysler, because they finally realized that: a) the labor cost
141 Okie73: even at current wages, AA can't compete with the LCCs on cost. The LCCs have much lower labor costs, but also get a lower RASM.
142 Aa757first: You could do it on years of experience, type ratings, peer reviews, performance reviews, performance in simulators, performance on written tests, lat
Sponsor Message: 
From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 30 posts, 
From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2046 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 69 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
