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Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly  
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 11297 times:

This morning's Anchorage Daily News had an interesting arcticle about how Alaska Airlines is using a 1977 DOT ruling to maintain their monopoly.

Here is the story, the oil companies run a shuttle service using 737's to the slope to move it's workers to and from work. This summer a Shared Services aircraft had a mechanical and went down for extendended maintaince, another aircraft was already in an extended check. So they where forced to look for additional capacity to move their crews. They wanted to go to a company called Polar Express, which was working with a California based company called Sky King to move the workers.

Well Alaska Air fought the start-up of Polar Express to provide the flight services every step of the year, using the 1977 rule from allowing a competitor to be hired to move these oil slope workers. Or even put price pressure on to lower the cost of the charters (The one time that I took the flight a couple of guys in the seat in from where complaining that AS was charging about 48K a flight).

Alaska Airlines currently is the only carrier with flights to Deadhorse that has comparable 737 aircraft, but yet uses it's 30 and 19 seat competitors to claim that there is already adequate competition on the route.

http://www.adn.com/money/industries/...lines/story/9376032p-9289331c.html


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5947 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 11059 times:

Are we surprised by this?

Quoting L-188 (Thread starter):
This summer a Shared Services aircraft had a mechanical and went down for extendended maintaince

Haha... that's the understatement of the year. After an in-flight compressor problem of some sort (details are fuzzy there), both engines were deemed out of tolerance by borescope inspection... the plane was grounded.


User currently offlineRoadrunner165 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 878 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10947 times:

I read the article during lunch today. Too bad Polar Express got shot down, it would have been very interesting to see whether or not they could make a profit conducting these charter flights. It sounded like they had a good business plan.

Everyone assumes Alaska makes little money flying to Alaska cities, but I believe people would be very surprised (and upset) if they knew just how much money Alaska Airlines made flying to small Alaska locations like Bethel, Nome, and the Deadhorse. Alaska Airlines make so a lot of money and gives little in return to the communities they serve here in Alaska. It looks like Alaska Airlines will continue using and abusing us Alaskans for ever.


Adam


User currently offlineAlaska737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1063 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10918 times:

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 2):
Everyone assumes Alaska makes little money flying to Alaska cities, but I believe people would be very surprised (and upset) if they knew just how much money Alaska Airlines made flying to small Alaska locations like Bethel, Nome, and the Deadhorse. Alaska Airlines make so a lot of money and gives little in return to the communities they serve here in Alaska. It looks like Alaska Airlines will continue using and abusing us Alaskans for ever.

ok but without AS do you honestly think that Bethel, King Salmon, Wrangell, ect...would get a 737? the answer is no, they would get a few 1900's or a Dash-8.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10771 times:

Quoting L-188 (Thread starter):
The one time that I took the flight a couple of guys in the seat in from where complaining that AS was charging about 48K a flight

That's less than $400/person...for flights of that length up in that part of the world that doesn't seem unreasonable.

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 2):
Alaska Airlines make so a lot of money and gives little in return to the communities they serve here in Alaska.

You mean, besides allowing you to get to those communities in the first place on something other than a puddle jumper?

Tom.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10606 times:

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 3):
ok but without AS do you honestly think that Bethel, King Salmon, Wrangell, ect...would get a 737? the answer is no, they would get a few 1900's or a Dash-8

And those dash-8's and 1900's are much more appropriately sized for those routes. I don't understand why villages feel that one jet a day is better service then 4 or 5 Dash-8's, Saabs, or 1900's running the route. The flight times aren't that much longer and you would have many more flight options.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 4):
That's less than $400/person...for flights of that length up in that part of the world that doesn't seem unreasonable.

Agreed, I don't think that is unreasonable, but multiply that by at least 3 or 4 round trips per day it adds up. It also violates a lot of auditing requirements for the oil companies, because of the amount of money involved and the lack of competitve bidding for the contract.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10523 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
I don't understand why villages feel that one jet a day is better service then 4 or 5 Dash-8's, Saabs, or 1900's running the route. The flight times aren't that much longer and you would have many more flight options.

This makes no sense but is common around the world.

People feel jets are "safer" than props. Plus you have to admit the general feeling of space and not being trapped in something small is much better in a 737 than a B1900, Dash 8 or Saab 340.

That is also an important perception factor.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10507 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):

And those dash-8's and 1900's are much more appropriately sized for those routes. I don't understand why villages feel that one jet a day is better service then 4 or 5 Dash-8's, Saabs, or 1900's running the route.

Considering many of these outposts rely on the belly (or the cargo area in the combis) of these 737's to bring them supplies/freight... that one 737 is FAR more important than a whole armada of Beechnuts or Dashers.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10482 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 7):
Considering many of these outposts rely on the belly (or the cargo area in the combis) of these 737's to bring them supplies/freight... that one 737 is FAR more important than a whole armada of Beechnuts or Dashers

There is nothing I said that prevents a smaller full freighter being run on those routes.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineRoadrunner165 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 878 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10451 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 4):
You mean, besides allowing you to get to those communities in the first place on something other than a puddle jumper?

Hi Tdscanuck,

This is a common assumption that I am not conveniences is 100% accurate. I am confident that if Alaska did not fly 737s someone else would. In fact someone else did, Markair with the 737-200s. Also, most people forget about the large amount of cargo that is flown in the state, this fact alone makes the 737 a better fit compared to small prop liners on routes to Nome and Kotzebue for instance. Nome is not on the road network so everything is flown in 12 months per year. AS has many of the mail contracts in Alaska too. My employer puts millions of dollars worth of cargo on Alaska per year for our Nome store and that is just for highly perishable items. God only knows how many millions of pounds of bypass mail fly on the 737s each year. So really, the 737s (or similar aircraft) would be flying in the state either way. Your statement makes it sound like the 737s are flying around Alaska empty, and that is just not true.

I was thinking more along the lines of poor customer service because AS knows they have a monopoly on the market. Look at the on time performance for bush communities, its horrendous. There are a lot of cargo customers upset with AS right now due to continuing problems with the 737-400c, which suck. Their credibility as a cargo provider in is going down the tubes quick. Passenger customer service is a bit lacking, but not nearly as bad as the cargo side of their business, which is what I deal with on a daily basis



Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
Agreed, I don't think that is unreasonable, but multiply that by at least 3 or 4 round trips per day it adds up. It also violates a lot of auditing requirements for the oil companies, because of the amount of money involved and the lack of competitve bidding for the contract.

Thats a good point L-188. Also the $48k number is probably the minimum cost for just the passengers alone, any extra room would be filled with cargo, thus providing AS additional revenues. The oil companies are AS's largest customer in Alaska.

OK OK OK … Ill stop yacking now and end my soap box.

Adam


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10425 times:

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 9):
Your statement makes it sound like the 737s are flying around Alaska empty, and that is just not true.

That's not what I meant to suggest. You said:

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 2):
Alaska Airlines make so a lot of money and gives little in return to the communities they serve here in Alaska.

My point was that merely providing air service *is* giving a lot to the communities they serve.

Tom.


User currently offlineAgnusBymaster From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 10192 times:

"There are a lot of cargo customers upset with AS right now due to continuing problems with the 737-400c, which suck."

The on-time performance has gone up since switching over to the 737-400 Combis from the 737-200 combis. It's definitely better than a year ago, and the new Combis are part of a $100 million effort AS is making to revamp its cargo service.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13751 posts, RR: 61
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9970 times:
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Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 2):
I believe people would be very surprised (and upset) if they knew just how much money Alaska Airlines made flying to small Alaska locations like Bethel, Nome, and the Deadhorse.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if Alaska Airlines were taking money home in wheelbarrows serving BET, OME and SCC don't you think other carriers would be clamoring to provide service on those routes and get a piece of the action?



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9964 times:

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 9):
Also the $48k number is probably the minimum cost for just the passengers alone, any extra room would be filled with cargo, thus providing AS additional revenues

No, when you charter the aircraft you get the whole airplane. It I charter an airplane with say 30,000 lbs payload, you expect to get the whole 30,000 lbs. I would be very ticked off if any of those pounds where being sold to another customer.

There is enough priority freight for the oil companies to take up any available cargo space.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineTiger119 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1919 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9920 times:

Speaking of AS, where are their crew bases? I did not think starting a new thread was neccessary for this question and I did do a search. Thanks

David



Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11973 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9852 times:

Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 14):
Speaking of AS, where are their crew bases? I did not think starting a new thread was neccessary for this question and I did do a search.

Alaska (mainline) has crew bases in Anchorage, Seattle, and Los Angeles, and Horizon has crew bases in Seattle and Portland.


User currently offlineAs907 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9695 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 12):
I've said it before and I'll say it again - if Alaska Airlines were taking money home in wheelbarrows serving BET, OME and SCC don't you think other carriers would be clamoring to provide service on those routes and get a piece of the action?

Well, Era just starting serving BET, although I haven't heard anything on the loads. Anyone care to fill me in? And they also just started up serving FAI (again.. loads?). The competition between AS and Frontier (not sure what the in-state airline code is) along with Era should be interesting.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
I don't understand why villages feel that one jet a day is better service then 4 or 5 Dash-8's, Saabs, or 1900's running the route.

As far as the aircraft types... there are some situations a jet can fly into while a prop can't... and I think it works the other way around, but not sure on the specifics. When at Era, Kodiak was our biggest problem. I would get many costumers complaining the Alaska jet made it in while our Dash's were on weather holds. But I've also seen Dash's make it in while the jet cancelled. Maybe many of the village people believe that the jet is more reliable?!


User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6194 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9355 times:

Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 14):

Pilot: SEA,LAX,ANC
Flt A: SEA,LAX,ANC, PDX (part of the SEA base)

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8803 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
And those dash-8's and 1900's are much more appropriately sized for those routes. I don't understand why villages feel that one jet a day is better service then 4 or 5 Dash-8's, Saabs, or 1900's running the route. The flight times aren't that much longer and you would have many more flight options.

cargo???????


User currently offlineSxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8509 times:

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 2):
Everyone assumes Alaska makes little money flying to Alaska cities, but I believe people would be very surprised (and upset) if they knew just how much money Alaska Airlines made flying to small Alaska locations like Bethel, Nome, and the Deadhorse. Alaska Airlines make so a lot of money and gives little in return to the communities they serve here in Alaska. It looks like Alaska Airlines will continue using and abusing us Alaskans for ever.

These comments have absolutely no support or base in reality.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7906 times:

Quoting As907 (Reply 16):
As far as the aircraft types... there are some situations a jet can fly into while a prop can't... and I think it works the other way around, but not sure on the specifics

Situations like that usually where an ops-spec issue not an aircraft type issue



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineHikesWithEyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 816 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7396 times:

Quoting L-188 (Thread starter):
(The one time that I took the flight a couple of guys in the seat in from where complaining that AS was charging about 48K a flight).

Sorry you have such an axe to grind about AS.
If the service sucks, and you think AS has an unfair monopoly, then just don't fly AS.
I don't care if your response is that you don't have a choice, because you do.
You are not being forced to fly.
Also, just because someone seated in front of you says that AS is charging 48K a flight, does that make
it true? What does that say about your powers of reasoning that you can accept that as the truth?



First, benzene in my Perrier, and now this!
User currently offlineRoadrunner165 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 878 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7251 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 10):
My point was that merely providing air service *is* giving a lot to the communities they serve.

So AS has a monopoly on Inter-Alaska flights and your saying I should just sit back and be happy they serve us, period. Like they are doing us some big favor? Polar Express was attempting to offer additional service in a high demand market and they were refused entry based on a law that was suppose to protect smaller companies from outside competition on low yield routes. It was not intended to give Alaska Airlines unlimited controls over the Alaskan sky. (that’s if I understood the law correctly)

Your point may fly for some of the cities Alaska serves that truly do not need jet service. But many of the towns in Alaska can stand on their own two feet and do not rely on AS to act as a crutch to keep everything going.

For example Nome gets:
6+ weekly flights from Northern Air Cargo
4+ flights from Everetts Air Cargo
4+ flights from Lynden Air Cargo
21 regular flights with Alaska Airlines plus a few freighter flights.

With all these flights there is still a 1-2 week delay with bypass mail (as of now) and it is not uncommon for AS to have 70-100,000 lbs of actual cargo (not bypass mail) sitting in Anchorage warehouse destine for Nome. According to the cargo sales manager for Alaska region AS had some very high load factors for Inter-Alaska flights this summer. (I can not verify that though) So yeah, I’m not really sure what my point is, I guess I’m just trying to paint a picture showing that a community like Nome (pop. 3500) gives Alaska a lot of revenues and should get treated better then we currently are.

Adam


User currently offlineRoadrunner165 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 878 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7248 times:

Quoting AgnusBymaster (Reply 11):
The on-time performance has gone up since switching over to the 737-400 Combis from the 737-200 combis. It's definitely better than a year ago, and the new Combis are part of a $100 million effort AS is making to revamp its cargo service.

Gulp... where did you get that information? Sounds like a press release from Alaska Airlines laced with propaganda  stirthepot   Wink

You may be right about on time performance ( I honestly don’t know), BUT the 737-400C has a big weight and balance issues. Things get worse if they are used as a freighter with no passengers in the rear. The new igloos are made out of a material that traps in the heat during the summer so perishable products fry. Believe me I know! They only have two 737-400c spread out over all of Alaska, one of which was down for maintenance the entire second half of September. If things are definitely better then a year ago why am I waiting longer for freight then last year at this time?? The capacity at Alaska Airlines for cargo has actually gone down with the introduction of the 737-400c in my opinion. They have been putting their freight on Northern Air Cargo for flights to Nome because they are so far behind. AS got rid of the -200s too soon, period. I remember when they rolled out the new cargo software for air waybills this spring, it was taking AS employees 45 minutes to process a single shipment at the Nome station. I feel so bad every time I watch the ramp agents unloading strapped soda form the rear belly of the plane.

I guess my rants are directed more towards the cargo side of the airlines, then the passenger side. I actually enjoy flying Alaska Airlines, once I’m on the airplane. It’s when I'm on the ground that I cant stand their service.


Adam


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7237 times:

Quoting L-188 (Thread starter):
Alaska Airlines is using a 1977 DOT ruling to maintain their monopoly.

A couple thoughts to ponder here. This is an old, old, OLD ruling that probably wasn't well thought out maybe? This 30 year old ruling. Maybe this needs to be revised and revisited. Times have changed, air travel IS booming. AS needs to take THAT into consideration.

OTOH, AS is protecting itself by using that 1977 DOT ruling, which is their right. They may fear that the ruling might get overturned and then they envision doom and gloom of their airline. But then again, times have changed 30 years later. Its time to adapt and get creative. I see a change is in order....and is also for the best perhaps.

Note to AS: You can't always rely on a 30 year old ruling. You cannot always be immune to these kinds of things. Again, times have changed.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
25 Roadrunner165 : I don’t think they are making wheelbarrow loads of money on these routes, but they are making more then a fair amount of money. AS is not going to
26 Lono : MMMM no ... not if you know anything about Alaska and Alaska Airlines... I agree.... especially since the solid buklhead combi's are having W/B issue
27 L-188 : And how can I exactly do that when they are the only air carrrier flying to an off-roadway destination. Actually that number didn't sound that far of
28 AirframeAS : I swear I read on a thread a few months back that the AS pilots are complaining that the 490C's are nose heavy. Does anyone remember that claim? Righ
29 ASFlyer : So, are you saying that AA, CO, NW, DL, UA and US are all legally unable to begin intra-Alaska flying? I haven't seen any one of them even attempt it
30 Alaska737 : Frontier Flying Service flys to all three of those places Yes that is true, I recall reading it and hearing a number of pilots tell me the same thing
31 Roadrunner165 : On flights to Nome and Kotzebue they occasionally put empty igloos up front just to meet weigh and balance requirements. They also belly load soda an
32 L-188 : Been there, done that and have the hat. Actually the rear belly of the 200C's wheren't that bad because they where short, Doing the same thing on a R
33 Post contains images EA CO AS : So which is it? A moment ago you were swearing there were all sorts of huge problems with the -400C fleet, and now you're saying you honestly don't k
34 AirframeAS : I supported that idea when the idea was first floating around here on A.net. I was hoping AS would have taken up the 790C idea. As far as the 490C no
35 Roadrunner165 : Ok, are we talking about on time performance, or the -400c fleet? You have me confused. A free market (those without monopolies) would determine what
36 HikesWithEyes : The 700 combi was deemed to be too expensive. The 400 combi has some issues, including a forward center of gravity, but as time goes on, the bugs are
37 Post contains images Roadrunner165 : That is not the point! The true beauty of the United States is that you can have the lamest, shittiest, dumbest business plan in the entire country,
38 Lono : [ Frontier Flying Service flys to all three of those places[/quote] Really!!!!!! Wow I guess I don't need to harness by dogs up........Ummmm yes I kno
39 AirframeAS : Well, true. It's a new aircraft and all...... Explains it quite well. Beat me to it!
40 L-188 : Wouldn't surprise me though, I know that the -200 had balance issues also, I used to load empty 40 gallon plastic barrels ahead of the igloos in Anch
41 EA CO AS : The article speaks of a rule pertaining to new CHARTER services only, and also points out that Alaska, PenAir and Frontier Flying Service already ser
42 L-188 : Well lets see here, PenAir's largest aircraft is a 30 seat Saab 340 (They took out four for more baggage room) Frontier flying service biggest airpla
43 Alaska737 : a few posts ago you were saying how the smaller planes better suit the communites as opposed to a 737, im a little confused here... And how come we n
44 HikesWithEyes : If you were running the show, wouldn't you charge $$$ for the charter? It's a rough world out there in the airline industry with the fuel and labor p
45 RyDawg82 : Spot on my friend! I would love to see the look on Alaskans' faces if tomorrow morning they woke up to see the front page of the Anchorage Daily News
46 AgnusBymaster : "Don't forget that AS had to give up an operational spare to make this work. By providing this service at late notice, it means that the airline doesn
47 ASFlyer : I was responding to your earlier claim (posted above) that they had a good business plan. I didn't say that they didn't have the right to try to make
48 Lono : I don't think L-188 was talking about SCC.... but places like OME/OTZ/PSG/WRG/CDV/YAK....
49 Roadrunner165 : Sure, If I was running the show I would want to make as much money as I could, thats just common business sense. But a free market drives down cost.
50 AirframeAS : And thats why I have said earlier that times HAVE changed. I don't think this 30 year old law was really set to be in effect for this long. Times hav
51 Sxf24 : Um, there are plenty of airlines who could start service today, with jets. The fact is that CO, DL, F9, NW, UA, US can't profitably operate a meaning
52 Tdscanuck : ANC-SCC round trip is about 1300 miles. So two round-trips per day is about 6-8 hours...that's a big chunk of the day. Tom.
53 Post contains images RyDawg82 : Oh I have plenty of faith in AS and their commitment to Alaska. I would just love to see what certain Alaskans would gripe about if they didn't have
54 AirframeAS : I don't think 'AS Commitment to the State of Alaska' is really an issue. I mean, of course they are. What Alaskan's want is more competition within t
55 MaverickM11 : Is that the same shady Sky King that does sports team charters?
56 BAW716 : I've heard about problems with the -400Cs up in Alaska, but I do know that the -200s were 30 something years old and I don't care how good a maintenan
57 AirframeAS : All the airports that AS serves in the state of Alaska are now paved runways. And they have been for a quite awhile, for more than 2 years.
58 BAW716 : Thanks for the update. I am pretty sure that I heard one of the AS 732 captains mention that they were flying to one destination that was still grave
59 Lono : I have been thinking about this "law" about air carries needing to be around before 1977... Back in 1998 we started a new "airline" in Southeast Alask
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