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YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1  
User currently offlineCayMan From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 905 posts, RR: 9
Posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4952 times:

It's nice to see a step in right direction for YYZ, even if a small one. At least the fees and costs are slowly moving down and not increasing. Maybe the Greater Toronto Airports Authority (GTAA) and local authorities in Greater Toronto region can now finally push the feds to eliminate the blatantly unfair surcharge (rent) levied against YYZ and the GTAA will be able to really make some competitive improvements.

I have always been amazed, with the importance of a major airport to a region, and the ever tighter race for votes in Greater Toronto, why one of the two credible Canadian federal parties has not seized this issue and come up with a proposal to do something about it. Admittedly, it is not an issue that gets a ton of airplay but just explain to a typical GTA resident how the feds jam Toronto for airport rents and they quickly get interested.


http://www.reportonbusiness.com/serv...y/robNews/home?cid=al_gam_mostview

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRicardoFG From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 677 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4945 times:

FANTASTIC!!! Maybe YYZ can become even more attractive now to more carriers to enter this market...even though 2007 has been a pretty good year! It would be great to see the Virgin Atlantics, Iberias, Swiss, etc of the world return after leaving for high landing fees, among other reasons

User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2225 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4926 times:

There are already rumours of other carriers coming floating around. This will only fuel rumours even more. But hopefully a number of them will be true. Some of the airlines mentioned need additional approvals and rights before they can add service. Branson has said he would like to return to Toronto. I am just not sure the loads are there for him.

User currently offlineScrubbsYWG From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 1495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4933 times:

i think some of it would have to do with the classic canadian political issue of alienating, perceived or real, the west and quebec in favour of toronto.

User currently offlineCruiser From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1001 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4907 times:

It is certainly one of Lloyd McCoomb's prerogatives to lower landing fees at Pearson. Seeing this announcement today is a start, but there is still a LONG way to go. 3-4% is still very minor when you compare what YYZ is charging compared to the other airports...now, if we see that same 3-4% reduction every year for the next 15 years, then we might be talking.

Trouble is, YYZ still has a lot of excess capacity (IFT, T3 Satellite) that is considered to be much less desirable to the carriers, and therefore no one wants to be stuck using those areas. Yet, it still costs a fortune to keep the lights on and some heat in the building. The GTAA has to figure out a way to leverage those assets and make them more desirable to some carriers.



Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4808 times:

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 4):
Yet, it still costs a fortune to keep the lights on and some heat in the building.

Well, YYZ does have its own cogeneration plant - quite a substantial one, too, 100 MW I believe – but your point is taken.


User currently offlineCayMan From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 905 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4622 times:

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 3):
i think some of it would have to do with the classic canadian political issue of alienating, perceived or real, the west and quebec in favour of toronto.

Point taken and you are correct, the 800 lb gorrilla in the room in Canadian politics is alwasy fear of alienating just about anyone BUT Toronto and Ontario. Irony is that on any objective standard, there can be no debate on the issue, the rent formula is blatantly prejudicial to Toronto. It's a sad state of national politics when, to apply equitable principles and establish a balanced and fair rental formula to ALL airports on just terms, would be to "alienate" other regions.

Frankly, as has been discussed here often, they should not be charging rent in any event, to any of the airports.


User currently offlineSwissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4543 times:

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 4):
It is certainly one of Lloyd McCoomb's prerogatives to lower landing fees at Pearson. Seeing this announcement today is a start, but there is still a LONG way to go. 3-4% is still very minor when you compare what YYZ is charging compared to the other airports...now, if we see that same 3-4% reduction every year for the next 15 years, then we might be talking.

Agree, a step in to the right direction... finally, no need to hype about it as 3-4% from very expensive is still expensive  Wink

Quoting CayMan (Reply 6):
Frankly, as has been discussed here often, they should not be charging rent in any event, to any of the airports.

Well whom would GTAA blame then...... Big grin for these high fees???

Cheers,


User currently offlineCruiser From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1001 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4465 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 5):

Well, YYZ does have its own cogeneration plant - quite a substantial one, too, 100 MW I believe – but your point is taken.

117MW...but it is hardly ever in use because most of the time it is cheaper to buy power from Mississauga.



Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2225 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4434 times:

Yes the cogeneration is as much there for back up for periods like the brown outs of previous summers and the big black out of the eastern seaboard a few summers ago. Mississauga hydro is pretty good.

User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4420 times:

The cogeneration station is neither idle nor serving purely as backup.

The GTAA has a contract under an OPA special program for new generation capacity that guarantees such plants adequate returns, over market rates, to supply electricity. Now, I don't doubt that because power rates have been lower than anticipated, that the GTAA is BUYING all of its electricity from Mississauga Hydro, but it is also using the OPA capacity purchase agreement to sell power at a higher rate. By buying power for its own use from the grid and selling power at a higher rate to the grid it is presumably making a tidy little gain.

Here is today's generating report for the three turbines at the GTAA cogen plant. Two of them appear to be operating at about normal, since the OPA is contracted to buy 90 MW of the 117 MW output.

http://reports.ieso.ca/public/GenOut...B_GenOutputCapability_20071017.xml


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4382 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 10):
Here is today's generating report for the three turbines at the GTAA cogen plant. Two of them appear to be operating at about normal, since the OPA is contracted to buy 90 MW of the 117 MW output.

What does this report tell the reader? That the two turbines have only been producing output for the last 3 of 11 hours?



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4320 times:

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 11):
What does this report tell the reader? That the two turbines have only been producing output for the last 3 of 11 hours?

It couldn't be plainer. Since 9 a.m. in the morning, when daytime demand levels kick in, the plant has been generating electricity. The report is updated periodically through the day, and by 1:45, the three turbines were producing significant power.


User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4246 times:

Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 2):
There are already rumours of other carriers coming floating around.

I know LH was flirting with the idea of launching flights ex MUC to YYZ. This would definitly help put that 2nd daily rotation on the map!!!


User currently offlineHanginOut From Austria, joined May 2005, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4206 times:

Quoting Swissy (Reply 7):
Well whom would GTAA blame then...... for these high fees???

I agree with Swissy. By lowering the fees (ever so slightly) the GTAA can now claim they've "done all that they could" but now its up to those meanies in the Federal Government to lower its rent so that they can pass on the savings to the airlines.

Yeah right  Yeah sure

If AC and the other airlines don't correspondingly lower their fares from YYZ, by the amount they will save as a result of the GTAA lowering its fees, what makes anyone think that the GTAA will significantly lower its fees even if the Feds lower or eliminate the rent it charges. I don't doubt that the GTAA will lower its fees if the rent is reduced/eliminated, but I don't see any real relief for passengers. Some other airlines may begin operations to YYZ and AC and the other airlines already there may increase their YYZ ops (whilst increasing their profits), but the flying passengers shouldn't be expecting any significant savings. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the airlines will lower fares by $20 or so as a promotion when and if the rents are lowered, but I'm also sure that the airlines will try to jack them up as quickly as possible also. The only real beneficiaries of any rent reductions will be the GTAA and the airlines who will see their bottom lines increasing.



Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
User currently offlineBravoGolf From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 538 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4197 times:

Seeing the article only gives a percentage decrease, what are the current rates? How high is high?

User currently offlineSwissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4178 times:

HanginOut,

Well spoken right on the  dollarsign   dollarsign  ......

Lowering the fees will impact the "local" airlines far more than a airline which has one flight a day lets say for a 767 or 330.

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 15):
Seeing the article only gives a percentage decrease, what are the current rates? How high is high?

Still as high as GTAAs ego..... they published the percentage because it sound a lot better than lets say 120  dollarsign  for a flight.... (just a example)

But for us traveling folks ....... nothing will change.

Cheers,


User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4084 times:

Quoting CayMan (Thread starter):
It's nice to see a step in right direction for YYZ, even if a small one. At least the fees and costs are slowly moving down and not increasing

It is nice to see, every time I go on the GTAA website I have to click that screen about the taxes and whatnot.

Quoting CayMan (Thread starter):
I have always been amazed, with the importance of a major airport to a region, and the ever tighter race for votes in Greater Toronto, why one of the two credible Canadian federal parties has not seized this issue and come up with a proposal to do something about it. Admittedly, it is not an issue that gets a ton of airplay but just explain to a typical GTA resident how the feds jam Toronto for airport rents and they quickly get interested.

Haven't you noticed regular people really don't care about aviation? Okay, this might lower airfares, but people will still blame Air Canada because Canadians just don't seem to understand the correlation between airlines, airports, and the government. I bet you more than half of the non-aviation population of Toronto don't even know what the GTAA is. Most Canadians just like to hate Air Canada even though AC has made tremendous strides forward in the last couple years.

Just my  twocents 

AF340


User currently offlineCayMan From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 905 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3939 times:

Quoting AF340 (Reply 17):
Haven't you noticed regular people really don't care about aviation? Okay, this might lower airfares, but people will still blame Air Canada because Canadians just don't seem to understand the correlation between airlines, airports, and the government. I bet you more than half of the non-aviation population of Toronto don't even know what the GTAA is. Most Canadians just like to hate Air Canada even though AC has made tremendous strides forward in the last couple years.

Excellent point, and it drives me nuts too! OK I realize the vast majority will never care as most of as a.netters do about commercial aviation, aircraft, news etc and that's fine it's not everyone's cup of tea.

But from a purely economic standpoint a major hub airport is a critically important economic engine, not just in the jobs it directly creates but in the economic activity it spurs by connecting that centre with the country, continent, world. Toronto has an incredible degree of direct flight options, nationally, trans-border and internationally it would be one of very top airports in N America for destinations served. And that is DESPITE this horrible cost structure.

In addition to economic benefits I think the large immigrant community in Greater Toronto take advantage of wide flight options for flights, airlines.

So your point is an excellent one and sadly true. So many people do not realize the economic, geographical, cultural importance of a major vibrant airport, it's not all just about what a flight costs. That's why there is so much apathy about this airport rent issue. One of those things that might only get attention if taken away. if airlines started bailing on YYZ en masse people might notice more. As it is YYZ shows strong growth and many new airlines despite these costs. So it goes unnoticed.

It's those of us for a passion in aviation that take notice.

Imagine if you will if the feds somehow had the ability to charge the Leafs rent at 160% of the NHL league average for use of their facilities and the resulting disadvantage they would face. Good golly the masses would be marching up Yonge St turning over cars.

I know we are not supposed to talk pure rumor but some posters above have said there is chatter about more airlines to YYZ. I know Ethiopian has stated they want to start services. I guess so much depends on bi-laterals, not costs. But out of curiosity who has heard what about possible new airlines? And I realize it may be utter sepcualtion/gossip but it's interesting nonetheless.


User currently offlineCruiser From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1001 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3889 times:

Quoting CayMan (Reply 18):
I know Ethiopian has stated they want to start services. I guess so much depends on bi-laterals, not costs. But out of curiosity who has heard what about possible new airlines? And I realize it may be utter sepcualtion/gossip but it's interesting nonetheless.

-TAP Portugal
-Emirates (to 1x Daily when they can get the rights)
-Virgin Atlantic
-Jet Blue


Those are the ones that I am aware of, although there may be others.



Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2225 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3874 times:

Isn't one of the airlines starting service from Iceland to Toronto as well. There are rumours of other Pacific airlines such as Qantas through LAX to compete with AC through YVR (I think this one is a little far fetched because I don't see enough yield for both). EVA Air Cargo and Passenger. SIA has been mentioned now that Emirates is coming (but again I don't see this as very immanent). And THAI to Bankok (I think wishful thinking). Some of the Russian airlines are another possibility.

User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3822 times:

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 19):
-TAP Portugal
-Emirates (to 1x Daily when they can get the rights)
-Virgin Atlantic
-Jet Blue

JetBlue - a rumor which as of yet has no substance. They seem more interested in Bogota which is a longer route, even from Fort Lauderdale or Orlando.

Virgin - Talk, talk, talk. There is so much Toronto/Hamilton - UK service that I see this as a long stretch.

Emirates - Certainly their intention, but bilateral constraints won't be removed soon.

QF via LAX would require a major change in the bilateral with Australia.

I don't think such a small decrease in fees impresses anyone. Those airlines that are going to come to Toronto will do so in spite of the fees. And there were be several not on this list. Think new or recently added Star Alliance members for one, like TAP or Turkish. Think Chinese carriers whose government has apportionned rights for the first China-Toronto nonstops (2009, I believe). Think QR, which needs a bilateral but at least won't have to split its rights like EK and EY when it gets in.

And think above all what existing YYZ players will do in terms of growth. Too much emphasis is put on new airlines because some of you are spotters. The real play in YYZ will be from existing players. Watch when a Canada-EU open skies deal is done.


User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3766 times:

Quoting CayMan (Reply 18):
Imagine if you will if the feds somehow had the ability to charge the Leafs rent at 160% of the NHL league average for use of their facilities and the resulting disadvantage they would face. Good golly the masses would be marching up Yonge St turning over cars.

Hahahahahaha  laughing  laughing  laughing 

Very True! Great Analogy!

Quoting CayMan (Reply 18):
But from a purely economic standpoint a major hub airport is a critically important economic engine, not just in the jobs it directly creates but in the economic activity it spurs by connecting that centre with the country, continent, world. Toronto has an incredible degree of direct flight options, nationally, trans-border and internationally it would be one of very top airports in N America for destinations served.

Too many times I have to try and convince people that YYZ is a great airport. Sure the price is high but, as you said, we have so many destinations. I can't wait to see how many more airlines will pop up when the fees go down.


AF340


User currently offlineLorgem1 From Canada, joined May 2006, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3693 times:

Hooray for the drop in rates!! However it will not do a darn thing for us travellers. The airlines still have a captured market. AC continues to make tons of cash and so to WS. When I fly of late, I do it from Buffalo - the savings are to enormous to ignore, and it only takes me 1.5hrs to get there. Do you know most hotels/motels close to the BUF airport offer special rates including parking to Canadians travelling in the US. Its the same with most other goods (cars, magazines, electronic equipment and machinery) purchased here or from the US, its cheaper to get it from down there! no competition!!!

User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3688 times:

Quoting Lorgem1 (Reply 23):
Its the same with most other goods (cars, magazines, electronic equipment and machinery) purchased here or from the US, its cheaper to get it from down there! no competition!!!

Especially with our dollar being worth more than theirs Smile


AF340


25 Post contains images Charlipr :
26 HanginOut : Sebring's right on the money, once an open skies deal is done watch what AC and their Star partners get up to. That said, I think that if there was a
27 RP TPA : Explain, please. What will AC do, and what will the non *A airlines counter with?
28 HanginOut : You will see AC increase its operations to Europe, much in the way their operations to the US increased after the last air agreement between Canada a
29 Cruiser : WestJet has a lot of work to do on their reservation system first. Sorry, let me rephrase...they need to implement a new one which would probably tak
30 EnviroTO : They also need something to give frequent flyers beyond the same air miles you get buying cheese at the grocery store. The whole idea of frequent fly
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