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Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?  
User currently offlineBillReid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 1006 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13364 times:

Skybus recently adjusted its capacity out of the west coast and increased capacity into Florida. This indicates an overcapacity situation and a misjudgement of several markets.

The planning was schizophrenic with them serving cities such as SAN, FLL and MCI while also serving tertiary cities as well. Now monopoly markets are dying like SAN, and others can't be maintained.

Boyd at the forecasting conference stated that although failure is probable, they will have a short term positive impact on CMH, unfortunately at the investors cost who are losing their shirts.

Boyd group stated that the opportunity for Ryanair and EasyJet in Europe was driven by national borders falling in Europe and creating an environment for success. America is different where these borders fell long before the airplanes were invented and lowcost airlines have been estalished for years.

So how long before they turn to standard airports like RSW. The risk into airports such as PGT is huge with capacity exceeding last years demand into SRQ and RSW combined. Is assuming a 170% regional stimulation reasonable especially given that off season flights to SRQ and RSW and TPA are far from full leaving limited spill into the tertiary airport. And Florida isn't the yield rich market airlines would like it to be.

Please comment on how long they will last. What they will do with 65 birds when the first markets chosen aren't sustainable with just five to seven birds. Are these people idiots or justing having losts of fun lowin the investors money?


Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
200 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13370 times:

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
Will Skybus Adjust It's Model Before Failure?

Who are you (or anyone else) to say that they ever will fail?



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineBillReid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 1006 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13338 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 1):
Who are you (or anyone else) to say that they ever will fail?

Someone who understands CASM and RASM and knows when you cancel your launch destinations you are in real deep do-do.



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13286 times:

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
BillReid

You must be Fred Reid's evil twin!  rotfl 



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13277 times:

Quoting BillReid (Reply 2):
Someone who understands CASM and RASM and knows when you cancel your launch destinations you are in real deep do-do.

Skybus does not get there profit (if any) from the seats they sell. A lot of their flights make more money by selling stuff on board and checked baggage than the actual price for the ticket.



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13235 times:

Just because they pull out of a couple of markets, does not mean they are going to fail. THey pulled out of markets that were way over on the west coast that used too much fuel (which is at new highs at this point). They can make money and will probably stay more "confined" as in the eastern 2/3 of the country. Airlines pull out of markets all of the time. I don't think they will fail.


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineWard86IND From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13133 times:

Man do NOT tell me they are about to fail. I just booked round trips in both January and March.


Live your dream.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13103 times:

At least if they do fail, people are out only twenty bucks.  Smile


a.
User currently offlineFreequentFlier From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 896 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13082 times:

I think the biggest concern is what Skybus does with the 60! Airbuses they have coming their way. I've been on record as saying both Skybus and VX were stupid ideas and destined to fail (even more so with oil at $88 a barrel). So far I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise. Skybus is already canceling multiple destinations despite a large number of aircraft coming on line and VX is already pulling flights from their schedule because they can't seem to coordinate aircraft deliveries and interior furnishings. For whatever reason, investors become completely irrational when it comes to investments in new airlines. They seem to think you can just put nice pretty airplanes up in the sky and (poof!) print money left and right. As the legacies and LCCs have shown us, its not easy to make money in this industry and it won't be going forward either.

User currently offlineCRJ200FAGuy From United States of America, joined May 2007, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13071 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
At least if they do fail, people are out only twenty bucks.

lol


Where's Itsnotfinals? They seem to drink the Skybus Kool Aid and I am sure can give us a long winded reason Skybus will do well.

Skybus always provides a good laugh around the crew lounge at my airline.


User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13051 times:

Quoting CRJ200FAGuy (Reply 9):
Skybus always provides a good laugh

Why...based on your username, the Skybus employees are getting paid much better than the people at "your" airline. I really do not get what is to laugh about...because they are trying to make money a different way than having a OAK-LAX flight be $500, but a OAK-LAX-SAN flight be $70?



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineCRJ200FAGuy From United States of America, joined May 2007, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13026 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 10):
Why...based on your username, the Skybus employees are getting paid much better than the people at "your" airline.

Actually, they aren't. I make over double the pay of a Skybus FA and don't tell me they make commission. I make commission too on what I sell. I know of at least 2 pilots that Skybus has contacted and it would be a paycut. We laugh, because it's a concept that won't work in the long run. Plus, they look like UPS drivers.


User currently offline44k From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12865 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 10):
Why...based on your username, the Skybus employees are getting paid much better than the people at "your" airline.

That is incorrect. Sx has some of the lowest paid airline employees: Quote Wiki:

Quote:
In order to keep wages in line with their projected low fares, flight attendants are only paid $9 per flight hour, and will not be paid a per diem. While this is considerably lower than competing airlines' wages, flight attendants also receive 10% of all sales made during the flight, splitting all commissions evenly among all flight attendants on-board. Starting pilot wages are also below average, starting at $65,000 annually for Captains, and $30,000 for First Officers.The average commercial airline pilot wage is approximately $135,000.


[Edited 2007-10-16 23:13:35]

User currently offlineQantas787 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12836 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
At least if they do fail, people are out only twenty bucks.

Actually I don't know why everybody says they are so cheap, whenever I check their web site I can't find that much to get excited about. When you take into consideration the lack of frequency and the crappy timings, I think they should be even cheaper. On the upside they might be doing better then we all think. Mind you I am just a long distance bystander.


User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12765 times:

The problem with SkyBus is twofold:

1. They attempted to introduce a European product in the USA. I don't think this is a bad idea, per se, it was just done badly. Ryanair and Easyjet make money because they have a low cost base, stage lengths that are for the most part less than two hours with a market segment that is accustom to being crammed into airplanes and having little to no service (the European charter market is a good example). In addition, for the most part they operate from smaller airports not close to their large city destinations. The key reason why it works is that the rail system in Europe allows for carriers such as Ryanair to fly to these airports far from their city destinations and passengers can take trains from nearby into the city center. In the USA, where the stage lengths tend to be longer and schedule and reliability are the two biggest product factors AND absent a ground transport system that works as in Europe, the Ryanair model can't work here...especially given the strength of the network carriers coming out of bankruptcy and low fare carriers like Southwest and jetBlue.

2. They started out with too many aircraft. This was their biggest mistake. If I heard correctly, they have 60 some aircraft? If the idea was to create bargain basement carrier, flying between secondary markets would have been fine if they had stuck with short stage lengths operated with fewer aircraft. Depending upon their success, they would have been able to grow into markets in which that type of product might have had a chance to succeed. Having that many aircraft in their fleet or on order, they would have had to achieve something like 800+ hours of aircraft utilization per day in order to make their aircraft unit cost even fall into the ball park of reality. That would be something on the order of 500+ flights per day?

I personally believe that Skybus is beyond the point of no return. The reason I believe this? At what point can you take a flawed business plan and the losses they have sustained and continue to operate? Short answer: NOT. I hate to be blunt, but Skybus was history even before the first aircraft got off the ground. It's just a shame that a lot of people will suffer as a result of it.

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4552 posts, RR: 18
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12742 times:

I am probably going to take heat for this but oh well. I think Skybus is bad for U.S. aviation. The standards for domestic service have been lowered far enough as it is. The last thing we need is for someone new to come along and prove the standards can be lowered even more. Joe Cheapskate is going to go for someone like Skybus and then turn around and expect the same level of pricing from others. Unfortunately other airlines aren't smart enough to ignore the wants of Joe Cheapskate and will adjust their product down to his level. I hope the legacies ignore Joe Cheapskate and focus on the traveler that wants the extra service and doesn't mind paying a bit more for it. If you are going to provide Greyhound level service then we might as well take Greyhound.

At least with Greyhound we aren't required to show up a couple hours early and take our shoes off to go through security and aren't kicked off for the shirts we wear.  Smile



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12739 times:

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 14):
If I heard correctly, they have 60 some aircraft?

Hardly 60. Airfleets shows that SX has currently 5 aircraft, some of those being aircraft that were originally destined for VX, examples being N521VA and N522VA (N522VA has recently been re-registered as N522SX).

http://airfleets.net/flottecie/Skybus.htm


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12500 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12726 times:
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Quoting LTU932 (Reply 16):
Hardly 60. Airfleets shows that SX has currently 5 aircraft

I believe they are currently operating 5 leased aircraft. They do, however, have 65 A320 on order directly from Airbus.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12715 times:

Well, so much for what I read.

I will do a better job of sourcing my material before commenting on it...my apologies to the a.net community.

That said, I still believe their business plan is flawed and on that point, I stand firm.

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 12587 times:

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
Please comment on how long they will last. What they will do with 65 birds when the first markets chosen aren't sustainable with just five to seven birds. Are these people idiots or justing having losts of fun lowin the investors money?

I dont see why you guys dont see the SkyBus model working. Its all about the costs. SkyBus should have very low costs. It also gives the impression that it is ALWAYS the cheapest, even this is almost certainly the case. FR in europe also have this perception, and can often be more expensive than the flag carriers, yet people still book with FR and fly to Airports which are not quite their destination.

Quoting CRJ200FAGuy (Reply 11):
We laugh, because it's a concept that won't work in the long run

You might want to tell that to Ryanair and Air Asia, and to a lesser extent the psuedo LCCs like EasyJet, Air Berlin, Frontier, Jet Blue, etc. They seem to be doing exceptionally well on a "concet that wont work". I'll let you in on a little secret. When FR were ordering their first 738s in 1997/8 Boeing took their business model. The worst Boeing could do: Break Even. Now SX has many FR people. I would be betting the model is similar, if not identical.

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 14):
The key reason why it works is that the rail system in Europe allows for carriers such as Ryanair to fly to these airports far from their city destinations and passengers can take trains from nearby into the city center. In the USA, where the stage lengths tend to be longer and schedule and reliability are the two biggest product factors AND absent a ground transport system that works as in Europe,

Maybe you should visit these airorts? While there might be a rial system to some of these airports, the vast majority have no rail connection. FR sells "Terravision" bus tickets on board its flights for connections into the city....

Quoting Indy (Reply 15):
I hope the legacies ignore Joe Cheapskate and focus on the traveler that wants the extra service and doesn't mind paying a bit more for it. If you are going to provide Greyhound level service then we might as well take Greyhound.

And yet, when the likes of VX provide a sort of service aimed at the top end of the sectrum people flame that too. The reality is people DO NOT WANT NEW CARRIERS TO SUCCEED. Because it uts pressure on them and their jobs. Dont pretend otherwise, its OK to be looking ot for your self and your families. Just dont pretend it wont work because they fly to secondary airports (a la WN) or because they fly Airbusses.

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4552 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 12587 times:

I personally think Virgin American is great for aviation. It moves to set the bar higher instead of lower. I'm all for better service.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineB4REAL From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2637 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 12502 times:

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 14):
. They started out with too many aircraft. This was their biggest mistake. If I heard correctly, they have 60 some aircraft?

Yes, they made a large order with Airbus, their initial a/c were leased, but now some of them are arriving that are their own aircraft. But to the point, yes, too big too soon IMHO.



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineBlueElephant From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 1813 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12413 times:

I'm Sorry Bill...I've gotta disagree with a number of your statements...If I come off a little harsh, my apologies.

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
The planning was schizophrenic with them serving cities such as SAN, FLL and MCI while also serving tertiary cities as well. Now monopoly markets are dying like SAN, and others can't be maintained.

I'm sorry, a quick check on FLL and MCI on Skybus.com shows that they are getting pretty good money on these flights. People are paying up to 300 bucks one way for Flights to FLL and thats the same thing being charged for an ERJ flight nonstop on DL...MCI on the other hand also doing quite well from the prices I can see on Skybus.com $250 dollars one way for today to MCI. And these are relatively Short Haul flights, which make their revenue a lot higher.

SAN I can agree with you, I don't think it's that they can't maintain it. I think it's that with the amount of planes they have right now, their money would be better well spent on shorter haul flights.

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
So how long before they turn to standard airports like RSW. The risk into airports such as PGT is huge with capacity exceeding last years demand into SRQ and RSW combined. Is assuming a 170% regional stimulation reasonable especially given that off season flights to SRQ and RSW and TPA are far from full leaving limited spill into the tertiary airport. And Florida isn't the yield rich market airlines would like it to be.

I'm Sorry here again. I'm sure that the Skybus Execs aren't stupid. They must have bargained with PGD like crazy..there has to be a reason...And if you look at Skybus.com, you'll notice that flights for May 2008 are already selling at $45 a ticket. and thats with 3 flights a day. Flights from PSM are also selling at about 100 dollars one way.

And you're saying Florida isn't the yield rich market would like it to be, yah...I can understand that...But is it producing money?...Obviously...otherwise why would airlines want to fly there. There is already a huge presence of other airlines to FL from CMH...WN and DL fly a ton of flights all over FL...and yet Skybus continues to thrive there. Do you really think they would continue to add flights and destinations to FL if they weren't making money?

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
Boyd at the forecasting conference stated that although failure is probable, they will have a short term positive impact on CMH,

Well Duh...even a 13 year old boy can go to the CMH website and do simple math and tell you that more people are traveling to and from CMH...

But I don't think he can say the impact is only short term, Even in the long run as long as they continue to offer cheaper fares than their competitors, then prices will slowly come down out of CMH and people will travel more.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 2):
Someone who understands CASM and RASM and knows when you cancel your launch destinations you are in real deep do-do.

Yes and even I understand CASM and RASM but who are you to say what their RASM and CASM is?...Skybus does not release figures, and they're not a public company. Like someone said above....SX makes money from their on board sales as well, not to mention advertising and lower operating costs, and higher utilisation. So i'm sorry, unless you are an Investor in the airline...You can't completely be confident over your knowledge of CASM and RASM and SX.

As far as their Launch Destinations being cancelled?...I think its a good Idea...I think that they realized that it is possible to use their aircrafts better...Hell even I thought that CMH-GSO was the stupidest idea in the world....but obviously it is the most profitable route the airline flies and because it is such a short flight, they can increase their revenue more by getting more out of their airplane.

And who is to say they are cancelling them completely?...I doubt that for sure..I definately remember reading in the dispatch that they will go back to these destinations when they have more aircraft.

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
What they will do with 65 birds when the first markets chosen aren't sustainable with just five to seven birds.

Plus...Think about it this way...There's got to be other operational reasons they decided to keep these aircraft on the east coast. Hmmm...Another Focus city perhaps?...Now they can get even more use from newer markets out of their aircraft until more come online.

65 Birds they will have...but that is projected out over years. You make it seem that they are getting 65 planes in a matter of months...and throwing them on Flights Strictly out of CMH.

What ever happened to other focus cities?...Have you thought about that?...international destinations?...Please don't make it sound like they're stupid..because I don't think they are.

I am not saying however that I believe in all their choices for Destinations....CHO...what the hell were they thinking..
I think they could use their aircraft better...

But is their Model failing?...I don't think so....I think they're gearing up to do something interesting....Thats probably why they knocked of BLI and SAN...and a BUR flight...those trips take 3 planes total, and about say...10 block hours a day....each...Imagine what you can do with 27 additional block hours among 3 planes....


User currently offlineCaspritz78 From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12383 times:

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 19):
Maybe you should visit these airorts? While there might be a rial system to some of these airports, the vast majority have no rail connection. FR sells "Terravision" bus tickets on board its flights for connections into the city....

That's true most of these airports have no rail connection but Europe is smaller then the US. I think no airport that FR serves is more than 60 minutes away from the targeted city/region. In the US some of the large airports are already 60 minutes away from the city. FR has also the advantage of the first player in the European LCC market and Southwest in US LCC market. Skybus is a typical late follower that tries to get a small share of the LCC market by relying on offering a "me-too" product.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6562 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12320 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 15):
I think Skybus is bad for U.S. aviation

I agree. While consumers in the markets they serve benefit from cheap prices, I for one am not a fan of continuing to bring service down to the lowest common denominator. What's next? Budget Rent-A-Plane flights like the one that appeared in Police Academy 5? The U.S has enough carriers out there who provide the bare minimum of service. No need to bring it down even further. All that being said, if they can make it work, more power to them. But an airline which pays its Flight Attendants a petty $9/hour doesn't get a lot of respect from me.


25 Racercoup : I thought there was a global pilot shortage? Where will crews willing to work for such short money come from to man these 60+ aircraft?
26 CRJ200FAGuy : They've called a friend of mine 5 times to get him to work there. He's politely declined.
27 Knope2001 : Be careful about assuming *too* much from the prices listed on the Skybus website. (a) Prices seem to almost invariably jump up in the couple of days
28 MaverickM11 : My bets are on VX folding before SX, absent any drastic changes to the business model and further cash infusions.
29 EXAAUADL : you mean a business model based on $10 fares and charging for everything else doesnt work??????
30 Luv2fly : You can not expect people to buy other items and you can not think that it will always happen.
31 Post contains images Typhaerion : I want to comment real quick on some of the above comments about Skybus being bad for the industry. People will pay for what they want. IMO, Southwest
32 Boston92 : No. I am correct. SX employees are paid better than the regional airlines I was talking about.
33 757drvr : Please explain??????
34 MaverickM11 : Ceteris paribus.... SX=low fares, low cost, little competition VX=low faers, high cost, 100% competition
35 ER757 : There's one thing that doesn't make a lot of sense to me, if someone could enlighten me, I'd feel more educated. Skybus says they dropped some west co
36 Luv2fly : For the most part WN delivers a better product than the so called full service major carriers. WN does not charge for its snack pack like the others
37 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : It suggests nothing of the sort other than a flawed business model. One airport they are pulling out of shows 114 pax/flight in August on an A-319 de
38 MAH4546 : Virgin America has some low intro fares, but they really aren't a low-fare airline. Their first class domestic product is arguably the best first cla
39 Post contains images Brilondon : This is what is going to sink them as they are not in the black by any stretch of the imagination and have already ordered 65 aircraft. They are in m
40 RSWA330 : Again, how do you know the capacity that SX is offering to PGD exceeds the demand? The online O&D stats? Thats funny, those stats also say that FNT-R
41 MaverickM11 : Not by choice, but by virtue of who they are competing against--I don't think WN, B6, or UA will cede an inch to VX.
42 ER757 : I don't want to see people hoping for failure of any airline - that just isn't right. The employees all have families to feed, bills to pay etc, so t
43 44k : I could be wrong, I didn't do extensive research on this matter. Just curious, what airlines are you referring to and could you provide some numerica
44 UnknownUser : No, FAs are paiid better at the regionals. Pilots are paid better than regionals, but WAYYYY less than major carriers flying A320s.
45 SANFan : I expect we will be seeing a thread like this about every week from now until the Bus is out of business (1Q or 2Q of next year, IMHO.) In addition to
46 757drvr : I have to agree with MAH. VX is trying to fill a gap that exists between the "no frills" carriers and the "legacy" carriers. Don't forget all the opp
47 RSWA330 : Yes but there are plenty of threads already started about SX where these individuals can ask these questions. Besides, many of these "questions" have
48 Post contains links Boston92 : FA's get paid $10 per hour plus 10% of the sales, rounding out to be between $14,000 and $20,000 a year. Starting salary for OO is $15,750. Skywest p
49 MAH4546 : They don't have to. Customers will make the switch. I know that once Virgin America is on the MIA-LAX route, my allegiance to AA on the route is gone
50 Post contains images MaverickM11 : I've heard that story before. About a hundred times. Ways to burn through cash without a match?
51 SkyyMaster : I pretty much agree with everything in your first point here. The novelty of flying into distant airports won't go over here. Lack of acceptable publ
52 757drvr : Again, I don't think that UA, AA, CO, DL, WN would have spent millions in lobby efforts to block VX if they weren't worried about the competion.
53 BillReid : The problem is the assumptions. The assumptions is that there has been nil service for CMH as was the case from FNT. This is a false assumption. The
54 BillReid : Great question. They have trapped themselves with a promise to always offer ten $10 seats on every flight. As fuel goes up the loss on the seats also
55 A340Spotter : N521VA and N522VA are still showing as active registrations. N521SX and N522SX are reserved still, as are most numbers in the 5..SX series. It appear
56 1MillionFlyer : Hi Bill. I was wondering if you knew any way to get these tickets you are talking about, they are never available. their website says only the first
57 Boston92 : They are available on the shorter routes, but for the longer ones, they are sold out. Once they extend their schedule to sell tickets, they will offe
58 Richierich : Thanks for the advice, Sherlock. Oh no, you didn't quote Wikipedia did you????? My take is this. I have no problem with new entrants coming in. The i
59 Flightopsguy : Fuel at $100 bbl plus the crack spread may sink several players...the bottom feeders usually go first....remembrance of my former colleagues at IDE. I
60 KstateinALB : Just have to say thats an excellent quote to remember for every airline CEO. Cheapness meaning actual product, and not price of the ticket, I believe
61 Post contains links 44k : Well, the data at Wiki was cited from here..hence somewhat credible: http://www.dispatch.com/dispatch/con...S.ART_ART_05-09-07_C8_1O6KNTQ.html http:/
62 Post contains links ExFATboy : FMY's website says that the old commercial terminal is now being used as office space for government agencies, and the new facility is a general avia
63 7E72004 : I think they will survive. Yes, they are discontinuing service to some western cities, but i think those are sound operational decisions. If they can'
64 ATLAaron : If you used your credit card, you will get your money back. What cities on the west coast are they cancelling?
65 7E72004 : I know one of the cities were Bellingham, WA.
66 LH417AF025 : i feel like i have heard that one before... independence air anyone?
67 Ward86IND : Wrong. Ever cross your mind that people could actually be getting on at 6:00 in the morning buying tickets? I did. I am going to Daytona and back for
68 FutureFO : Actually Skybus FA's make 9.00/hr and the commision is split amongst the working F/A's. So they do not make more than the regionals. MESA F/A's even m
69 LACA773 : How is SX doing in BUR?
70 CMHSRQ : So lets recap, maybe I'll send this to Letterman The top 11 reasons Skybus will fail SkyBus will fail because 1. Columbus sucks 2. The airports that S
71 FutureFO : Oh and forgot to add that with the boarding system that they use especially in CMH. Come winter someone will inevitably slip on one of the boarding ra
72 CMHSRQ : Right, thanks, I'll add that now
73 Richierich : With all due respect, I highly doubt this. This is why airlines have insurance companies.
74 SkyyMaster : No, I know where these airports are. My point is, the reality of the world is there are many people who do not. Some people will not mind buying a ti
75 1MillionFlyer : That happens a lot on WN too for sure. I saw a sign in PHL that said "More flights to Boston " that was maybe 40 feet wide on a parking garage for WN
76 717-200 : And that is why I declined as free ticket on AS and bought a ticket on WN for less than $250 RT. Also I like flying an airline that runs a tight ship
77 MAH4546 : You just demonstrated why Skybus will fail. You say you wouldn't buy anything. Skybus doesn't want you flying them, then. Part of their (flawed) busi
78 ModernArt : Great point. A+ You fail to acknowledge that these novelty airports are already in close proximity to millions of potential travelers who don't want
79 1MillionFlyer : I am confused, since Allegiant has reported people buying a lot of extras and posts on here say that Skybus is running out of buy on board, what is t
80 MAH4546 : What source? Where did I ever say people aren't buying things? All I said is that Skybus attempts to make-up for low fares based on the belief that p
81 Pe@rson : It’s completely unreasonable to assume that Skybus would by now have a massive portfolio of ancillary revenue streams. There is, however, terrific
82 Ward86IND : By this comment you inferred that there business plan is flawed because people won't buy things on board, don't tell me you didn't. Unless you want t
83 MAH4546 : I think? Skybus has, again and again and again, referred to this as a key revenue source. That's one reason you can't even bring your own food on the
84 Luv2fly : Yes they have and I believe shorter flights means less people will buy or consume.
85 MAH4546 : It's actually the opposite, sort of. The problem is that no matter how long the flight is - one hour or four hours - passengers tend to have the same
86 Luv2fly : Well that could be, though you would think the longer you are on the aircraft the more drinks and or food one might consume due to hunger and or bore
87 1MillionFlyer : Does anyone find the irony in the original posters title? The fact that they are making changes makes this whole thread redundant doesn't it? I think
88 BillReid : This is great. The shorter the flight the lower the propensity towards inflight sales. I can wait til I land on a 1hr flight. They could charge $2 to
89 MiAAmi : With the many commuters boarding airplanes the same way I doubt this is a big concern for them.
90 N766UA : The problem with skybus is that they fly into the middle of nowhere! Sure, Portsmouth is cheaper than Boston, but why would I, someone who lives in Ne
91 Boston92 : BDL is only 15 minutes closer to Hartfors than Chicopee.
92 SkyyMaster : Yes, it is true that for some, the airports SX fly to would indeed be more convenient to a certain percentage of passengers. My point was, or at leas
93 N766UA : Alright, but Logan is IN Boston and Sea-tac is only a 20 minute busride from Seattle, so my point still stands. There are advantages to using out of
94 1MillionFlyer : Please provide a link? there have never been any surveys posted on here?
95 ScottB : Wow, you can drive 25 miles in 15 minutes without getting nailed by the Mass. or Conn. State Police? (Or, for that matter, flipping your vehicle) Imp
96 SkyyMaster : I didn't say they were on here. I beleive the last I read was in BTN. When mentioning a.net, I was referring to posts by people who have flown Ryanai
97 1MillionFlyer : Sorry for the misunderstanding, I thought there was a survery for Skybus, but if it's only for Ryanair as a comparison I think I understand where you
98 Post contains images SkyyMaster : No prob. It's easy to misinterpret posts, I've done it more than I care to recall
99 FutureFO : But there is a difference in a small regional airplane verses an A319/320. The length of the fall make all the difference.
100 Richierich : Wow. Despite the heavy hint of sarcasm in this post, I think ScottB is correct! I don't want Skybus to fail - I always welcome new competition when I
101 ExFATboy : I don't think the lack of public transport is as big a factor as it might seem, particularly on flights to Florida - the vast majority of people goin
102 BillReid : Wow! Average rental rate reported by Business Travel Magazine is lower at SRQ vs. TPA so I wonder if you got it backwards or simply think its lower a
103 Post contains images Ualcsr : I also found it a little childish. I'm curious though, how do they enforce the not bringing food onboard policy? Are you fined if you're caught with
104 Dragonflyer : Pretty much have to agree with everyone on here that the problem with Skybus on the West Coast is that the fares are NOT significantly lower than Sout
105 Avek00 : No, it's not. It's also about the REVENUE, which gets stimulated from an airline offering a competitive advantage in the marketplace.
106 SANFan : However, of these millions of potential travelers close to, and willing to use, the novelty airports (I think the term "secondary" is a better fit) h
107 Quagmire123 : 4 being leased, 1 of them is theirs with the 156 seat configuration. The 4 being leased only have 144 seats.
108 Quagmire123 : I would say your best bet is to sign up for their emails....they'll send you an email the day they launch new ticket bookings to where you can get th
109 Quagmire123 : Oh my....I can't stand it when people keep comparing SX to Independence......completely different operating costs.....at least SX isn't going to keep
110 OB1504 : Why don't they take a row off of their A319 to eliminate the cost of having an extra F/A?
111 BillReid : The EXACT same reason they scheduled a twenty minute turn after a four hour flight. Clueless management. The greenest rookie scheduler learns and kno
112 Quagmire123 : Actually, they do run out of food on almost every west coast flight.....to the point where the planes really need to be catered on the west coast. Th
113 Quagmire123 : I couldn't agree on this issue more. I've been in the 156 seater....it's not comfortable at all, and I'm only 5'9". Apparently the amount of profit t
114 ER757 : Which is why they dropped some west coast cities, correct? So, if I get what you're saying, then they can't serve the west coast (or at least the lik
115 Quagmire123 : I agree that SX handled the flight cancellations the incorrect way....they didn't even allow customers who bought tickets through March to continue o
116 1MillionFlyer : Didn't their CEO come from Ryanair? You already contradicted yourself 4 times in this post.
117 BillReid : I believe the CEO came from WN, but whether he worked for Ryanair or Southwest doesn't nescsarily qualify him to be a top airline person. His experie
118 44k : SX CEO is Bill Diffenderfer, he has no Airline experience. I had the pleasure to meet him, and he is a very smart and likable guy. However, he admitt
119 SkyguyB727 : The reincarnated Pan Am flew to secondary airports exactly as Skybus is doing. Pan Am is no longer in business. I find it hard to believe that there i
120 Post contains images SANFan : I guess that's one way to look at it. However, I wonder if the majors "keep throwing money away" flying to the west coast just for fun or perhaps bec
121 LACA773 : How is SX doing in BUR? I would hope it's doing well since BUR with the exception of B6 going to JFK there's not much any longer domestic flights over
122 Post contains images Itsnotfinals : Apparently Nationwide Investments and Merrill Lynch among others disagree. Many people are forgetting that SX has 30 Million I was at a corporate ret
123 Boston92 : Agawam is where I am mostly and I used that as an estimate of how far BDL is. BDL is about 15-17 minutes from Agawam, and Chicopee is about 7-10 minu
124 Itsnotfinals : should have read 30 million more than B6 had at start up, 130 Million for B6, 160 Million for SX.
125 Jacobin777 : ...given what the cost of "Black Gold" was back then and what it is now...that $30 million is getting "guzzled" quite quickly.....
126 UAL777 : They are having a bit of a tough time. Um, you are wrong, wrong, wrong. First off, there ARE NO 1st year captains at Skywest because 90% of the FOs h
127 Itsnotfinals : That's what yeild management is all about. 75 Dollars a barrell versus 90ish now. 160 Million was their start up funding versus 130 Million for B6. I
128 Post contains images Jacobin777 : $75?.....When B6 started, oil was at $12/barrel!* *-source-New York Mercantile Exchange....
129 Itsnotfinals : I was pointing out what oil cost when SX was getting started. Your point certainly adds to the argument that SX can survive increased fuel prices sin
130 ExFATboy : Last time I looked the "no food" policy was not in their Contract of Carriage, so I doubt they actually try to enforce it. I guess hypothetically it
131 Itsnotfinals : No comments on the GSO expansion, hiring 375 employees, up to 9 million in incentives , adding more flights at PSM, and still doing very well at CMH.
132 Coa747 : I'm just not convinced the low cost carrier model is sustainable for anyone long term. Even carriers like Southwest who helped create the whole low co
133 Luv2fly : Take inflation into consideration and most likely the numbers are closer than you want to make them out.
134 Itsnotfinals : yes, I already posted the inflation difference, but no in this thread sorry, with inflation adjustment BG had 148,000,000 for start up vs SX 160,000,
135 Post contains links ScottB : You said: Now you say: Agawam to CEF is a good 20 minutes. I don't see how you make a 12 mile drive from Agawam to CEF in "7-10 minutes." BDL is about
136 Itsnotfinals : I used 2002 , sorry, my bad, so SX has AS MUCH MONEY as B6. well if you live in CMH or GSO you can't enjoy B6's home market can you? so did Countrywi
137 CitrusCritter : Any model airplanes to be had?
138 Dragonflyer : Actually, that is not true. Southwest flies TWICE a day, non-stop, SAN-BWI! That service was never dropped and it is full every day. I'm not sure whe
139 Boston92 : If you really want to nitpick: I said Agawam is 10 minutes fom Chicopee. I was not sure on the exact location of the airport, but Agawam to Chicopee
140 Post contains links Avianca707359B : Apparently, not only has Skybus declared that Portsmouth, NH = Boston, they have now officially made it a part of Massachussetts! Excerpt from Ad: "Da
141 SkyyMaster : That's really sad. They are starting to appear as if they are grasping here. Chattanooga, Georgia is going to be a disaster for them. Now that they'v
142 Richierich : I always love this argument. It's beyond ridiculous. If B6 had picked CMH and GSO as their home markets, they wouldn't have made it seven-plus years.
143 1MillionFlyer : your argument is ridiculous, having a hub in an underserved market makes a lot of since, and SX just scared SX out of CMH. B6 has adjusted their busi
144 Post contains images OB1504 : Wait... what?
145 Itsnotfinals : Maybe you didn't see the press releases and several threads on Anet. They will be serving more cities than ever with GSO and expansion in Portsmouth.
146 ScottB : I have "read the posts." I don't see any evidence whatsoever that SX is "still doing very well at CMH." First we're told by the SX boosters that the
147 SkyguyB727 : If Skybus pays their F/As only $9.00 per flight hour, they are in violation of Ohio's minimum wage law unless they have some exemption that is unknown
148 Itsnotfinals : you also have no evidence to prove they are doing poorly, so we will all have to wait and see won't we? WN says Boston in some of their ads also. The
149 CRJ200FAGuy : 35,000 is either a dream or an all out lie. There is no way a Skybus FA will make anywhere near that. 100 hour month x 9.00 an hour x 12 months = $10
150 ScottB : Southwest's ads say "Boston area," and they do state that service is to Manchester or Providence. The linked Skybus ad claims that Skybus serves Bost
151 Boston92 : They submit pax numbers every month, and have been increasing month to month as well as going from 5th best to 2nd best at CMH.
152 ScottB : It doesn't take much to be "2nd best at CMH" -- the #3 carrier at CMH has a whopping 6 daily mainline departures. And we know nothing as to whether t
153 BlueElephant : Go to Skybus.com, It Clearly says 'Boston (Portsmouth, NH)' Go to Southwest.com It says Boston Area, (Manchester, NH and Providence, RI) They're the
154 Post contains links Avianca707359B : The thing is, ScottB was not referring to the Skybus.com, but to an ad they circulated: http://www.jaunted.com/story/2007/10...s+So+Wants+Portsmouth+
155 Post contains links and images ScottB : Passenger numbers don't tell me anything! FlyI had a 72.5% load factor for the 3rd quarter of 2005 and they still posted an operating margin of -40%
156 BlueElephant : Lets look at the report than shall we?...because obviously you refuse to show any proof that Skybus is doing poorly at all... In August 2007...Southw
157 Itsnotfinals : You forgot 401K, medical and other beneifts that are all a benefit (although US workers tend to ignore cash or benefits they can't spend immeadatetly
158 Luv2fly : Yes though B6 did not leave a city with in its 6 months of start up, now did they.
159 Itsnotfinals : to be fair to B6 they had served both BNA and CMH well over a year.
160 KcrwFlyer : I don't think anyone here has brought that proof to the table yet. I have trouble believing that SkyBus is doing as poorly as people seem to think. 1
161 SkyyMaster : I read the threads. Dropping two routes touted as "money makers" from day one by the SX koolaid drinkers cannot be a good sign, regardless of them ad
162 BillReid : It is one thing to argue for a model, or against. But this is rediculous. Who argues using wrap? I think this is a comment from an employee of SX who
163 CitrusCritter : Neither Florida airport (PGD or SGJ) is particularly unreasonable for the market it serves (RSW and JAX respectively, plus small add-on respectively
164 CRJ200FAGuy : I didn't forget, because that's not included in take home pay. That's considered compensation. When I applied at my airline I was told what I'd be pa
165 SkyyMaster : I'm not arguing that it is unreasonable for the airports they choose. I am sure some people will fly them for various reasons. Still, I venture to sa
166 Post contains images Itsnotfinals : why? you have no facts to support this statement. they are still in business...you can't argue with that. spoken like someone who doesn't understand
167 SkyyMaster : It is you, not I, that makes continual claims that SX is making money, and in past threads talked about especially well the BLI flights were doing. U
168 Richierich : I believe ATL was 6 months. I remember this only because of the bitter discussions that used to be in this forum about why B6 left Atlanta. To this d
169 Itsnotfinals : I have never even one time said "SX is profitble". and you have already acknowledged that. Actually I have never said BLI was profitable either. It's
170 ScottB : Did I make any sort of claim that Skybus was doing poorly? NO. I gave counterexamples to the Skybus booster propaganda that Skybus was "doing very we
171 Post contains images Itsnotfinals : Anyone from PHL can confirm this, sorry I didn't take a picture LOL. I am not proving any point, I am posting facts: If you say so. Skybus only sells
172 ScottB : No, Skybus says there are at least ten seats for ten dollars on each flight: I doubt there are many flights with more than ten $10 seats, but it woul
173 Itsnotfinals : If you look on the front page of their website it says "10 seat for 10 dollars on every flight" so you're quote isn't right. Also looking at their bo
174 Luv2fly : That fact though could change if they decide to add some lower fares to stimulate sales. Fares and availability can and does change like the weather.
175 DAL767400ER : Oh hell yes it does. When an airline drops a route or a destination, it is because that route/destination was not making money. That applies for Skyb
176 Itsnotfinals : again, your opinion only no fact there. It's pretty clear that SX has only so many plans and to get the millions in GSO incentives, they chose to rep
177 MAH4546 : It's funny how the Skybus lovers hid when Skybus announced the route cuts, including the discontinuation of what was boasted to have been "Skybus' bes
178 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Yes, of course, something that hundreds of airlines all across the globe do doesn't apply to Skybus, I forgot . Again, I reiterate my question: Even
179 Post contains links ScottB : And if you actually go deeper into thw web site, you'll notice the following here: http://ask.skybus.com/offers/promotions.shtml Or here: http://ask.
180 SkyyMaster : So, apparently the only way they can make money is to get subsidized by airports begging for additional service. It is indeed a fact that if an airli
181 Post contains links and images Itsnotfinals : Um you're not helping yourself , it says "at least" not "sometimes more than 10" LOL I didn't say it proved anything, just that your statement that "
182 Post contains links Itsnotfinals : Why don't you ask B6 that question? they announced service expansions just days before they dropped those cities. They never said they were money los
183 SkyyMaster : Somewhat true yes, The Nashville Tennessean quoted a JetBlue spoekesman as stating BNA was dropped because it was underperforming. You can call it wh
184 BillReid : It appears this thread should be cut off as it is now a "Itsnotfinals" against the world. I lost all respect for the comments from him when he shows
185 CRJ200FAGuy : Before clicking to post, maybe you should read what you typed. He said benefits are benefits. So yes, a pilot would answer health insurance is a bene
186 Itsnotfinals : Their base bay (As everyone's base pay in the US) does not include benefits or tax deferred income, as you probably know. YV is known as the lowest p
187 Itsnotfinals : Revenue diversion discusses the way Airports may use FAA funding for development. It has nothing to do with Skybus whatsoever. SX employees would hav
188 BillReid : Benefits do not pay the mortgage, food bills or car payments. This is basic "cash flow" flawed. Without cash flow business and people do not survive.
189 Itsnotfinals : So re-deploying assets to a new hub and gettig further financial incentives which add to cash flow (which SX is doing) is doing exactly what you are
190 BillReid : You first argued that the FA's are making a very good p/t 46K now you say this? Please, lets keep the arguments consistent. Not part of the equation.
191 Post contains links Itsnotfinals : April 2004: http://columbus.bizjournals.com/colu...2004/04/19/daily9.html?jst=b_ln_hl as well as several Anet posts in 2004-2005 all said "Ryanair mod
192 BillReid : Where does anyone suggest CMH has done anything wrong????????? "We" means the a.netters, or bloggers on this thread. CMH would be CMH. Please do not
193 Itsnotfinals : You implied SX didn't "know" how airports can use their funds which again is not somethimg SX even has to worry about, then you never answered anythi
194 BillReid : Nope! I implied the a particular poster on thread is clueless on how airports work!!!!! However, by your comment above I can now assume that you are
195 BillReid : PLEASE close this thread asap.
196 Itsnotfinals : Wow, down to calling names, that certainly says a lot. There seems to be no actual information to back up your post, over 10,000 people have read thi
197 KcrwFlyer : That being said, this thread was one of the most impressive strings of assumptions I've ever seen. Was that official, or did an employee just ballpar
198 Itsnotfinals : LOL agreed ! it was official. It's been posted on Anet from sources including the Columbus Dispatch and several outside folks from Anet that did the
199 BillReid : If no one knows, as you state, that would be a direct contradiction (of yourself) on the same post?? Please, what info are you refering to? See direc
200 PanAm_DC10 : Thread archived at the request of the thread starter. Thank you.
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