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Disappearing Hubs, STL, PIT,?  
User currently offlineJawake From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 284 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3625 times:

I did not want to hijack the forum that is discussing the USA Today Article on PIT being dismantled as a hub so I thought I would start a new topic.

I remember in the early 1990's flying through STL & PIT on my way to the West Coast and now they are no longer "hubs" that many of us will fly through. I know there will be some traffic, but overall, they are no longer the "hubs" that CVG, ORD, MSP or CLE are in that part of the country.

So my question is this.... Who is the next "hub" that in 10 years won't be a "hub" anymore? Should CVG be nervous? CLE? MSP? etc..... I am particular interested in US Hubs. I have no agenda, other than picking your brains to see where we might NOT be flying through in the years to come. Maybe I am wrong, we have seen the end of hubs dying on the US. But with Airline Mergers constantly being suggested, it seems that it is a matter of when, not if.

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4570 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3601 times:

I'd say of the three you mention MSP is safe. The interesting scenario would be a DL/CO merger. Which hub goes? CVG or CLE? You obviously can't keep both.

MSP is the home of NW. I can't think of a merger scenario that would result in it being axed. There are only two scenarios I can think of that would cause MSP to lose hub status. #1 would be NW going bust. #2 (and least likely) would be NW closing down MSP as a hub in some kind of dispute with MSP and/or the local government.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9236 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3554 times:

I don't think CLE has anything to worry about. CO is building up CLE to take pressure off of EWR as has been discussed in other threads. CVG is about right-sized right now for DL. Regarding a CO-DL merger, I don't think that is very likely as of right now either...


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3491 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 2):
I don't think CLE has anything to worry about. CO is building up CLE to take pressure off of EWR as has been discussed in other threads

But when it comes to international routes, CLE makes very little sense for CO. Out of CLE one could expect to have B757 to LGW, AMS and CDG (because the later 2 are SkyTeam hubs); B73G MEX and CUN routes; SJO and/or LIR plus PTY (CM SkyTeam hub) in Centralamerica, and MBJ, CGM, NAS, PUJ, SXM, AUA on the Caribbean. And of all the destinations mentioned before only 1-3 may support daily flights.

I'm sorry to see that aiports like PIT (US), BWI (US), RDU (AA), BNA (AA), PDX (DL ?!) became former hubs, but maybe the saddest might be STL, how AA took over TWA and de-hubbed their hub..



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineJawake From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3491 times:

It is being discussed elsewhere a DL/NW Merger. So what do you do with DTW & CVG?

User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4106 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3458 times:

SLC could face the prospect of being de-hubbed in the event of a DL/UA merger, with DEN being a newer airport with twice the O&D potential. But like many, this one is probably not even a blip on the radar screen at the moment.


DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3404 times:

Quoting Jawake (Thread starter):

I remember in the early 1990's flying through STL & PIT on my way to the West Coast and now they are no longer "hubs" that many of us will fly through.

STL is most certainly still a hub (and it serves an important purpose within the AA network by taking a lot of pressure off of ORD and arguably increasing ORD yields as well).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2099 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3377 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 1):
Which hub goes? CVG or CLE? You obviously can't keep both.

I think it would be clear that CVG would be the one to go. CLE is the bigger town. However, in a UA/CO merger, CLE would be toast, crushed by ORD, EWR and IAD.


User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3268 times:

In a NW/DL merger CVG would be displaced by DTW. MEM probably would lose to ATL

DL/CO very unlikely but CVG already has more destinations than CLE and has the space.

UA/DL. ORD would win hands down over CVG. DEN/SLC is not as clear cut as some would think. DEN should win but would you be so worryfree over entering a hub market with 2 growing LCCs. SLC has shown a willingness to build an ATL sytle infrastructure if needed which would partially offset some of the advantages.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4106 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3209 times:

Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 8):
DEN/SLC is not as clear cut as some would think. DEN should win but would you be so worryfree over entering a hub market with 2 growing LCCs. SLC has shown a willingness to build an ATL sytle infrastructure if needed which would partially offset some of the advantages.

The only advantage SLC has over DEN is west coast equipment logistics. SLC is close enough to use EMB-120 turbo-props to some of the smaller west coast cities. But again as I eluded to above, DEN would walk away with this one since they have twice the O&D that SLC has. Who's to say if SLC rebuilds their terminal/concourse facilities anyhow, and B6 ramps up more operations there, that WN wouldn't get into the mix further?



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineJawake From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3073 times:

I think we are approaching this from a good perspective, mergers will be the key to whether a hub remains a hub. Certainly that was true in the case of STL & PIT. And BTW, I do realize STL is a hub, but its prominence and frequency of flights has diminished over the years just as PIT is experiencing at the moment.

But let me suggest a different approach. Based on volume, number of passengers, O&D, which "hubs" look weak? Meaning "hubs" that could be dismantled easier than others. For example, dismantling ORD would be huge, compared to maybe CLE or CVG.

SLC & PDX also sound like candidates given their size. What do you think?


User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3043 times:

Which hubs to disappear?

1. Not likely, but I'd say MKE and KCI if NWA fully takes over operations.

2. Pittsburgh

3. Shot in the dark = LGB for Jetblue

**BTW, A^A killed Reno off.



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3035 times:

Quoting Jawake (Reply 10):
Based on volume, number of passengers, O&D, which "hubs" look weak?

I could think NW's MEM and if F9 gives UA a very hard time, UA's DEN.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2966 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 7):
I think it would be clear that CVG would be the one to go.

um.....

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 7):
CLE is the bigger town.

...which really means nothing so far as aviation hub/planning/operation goes.


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9236 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2863 times:

Quoting DIA (Reply 11):
Which hubs to disappear?

1. Not likely, but I'd say MKE and KCI if NWA fully takes over operations.

2. Pittsburgh

3. Shot in the dark = LGB for Jetblue

I thought it was already discussed that PIT already disappeared, unless I am missing something  Smile  silly 

If this is a miscommunication, my apologies...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineHPAEAA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2777 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):

STL is most certainly still a hub (and it serves an important purpose within the AA network by taking a lot of pressure off of ORD and arguably increasing ORD yields as well).

As of the Q3 results call today, STL had a higher YOY increase in RASM than ORD.... go STL, guess not much will be cut in the next major rounds of schedule changes..



Why do I fly???
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2754 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):
I could think NW's MEM and if F9 gives UA a very hard time, UA's DEN.

???...Funny.

DEN is officially the nation's 4th-busiest airport now.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 14):
PIT already disappeared

Good point.  Smile



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2727 times:

Quoting DIA (Reply 16):
???...Funny.

DEN is officially the nation's 4th-busiest airport now.

Why is so funny?, DFW is a very busy airport too and that didn't keep DL from de-hubbing it.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2666 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 17):
hy is so funny?, DFW is a very busy airport too and that didn't keep DL from de-hubbing it.

But DFW (excuse my poor english here...) "would never not-be a hub"...just that simple, w/o getting into the weeds about "why so."

Regarding your DEN thoughts: It just isn't likely with all things considered. In this thread, I would think the thoughts are geared more towards hubs that stand a chance of not being a hub in the near future. In this context, hubs such as LAX, ATL, ORD, EWR, and even DEN & DFW are not very likely candidates.



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9236 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2644 times:

Quoting DIA (Reply 18):
But DFW (excuse my poor english here...) "would never not-be a hub"...just that simple, w/o getting into the weeds about "why so."

Regarding your DEN thoughts: It just isn't likely with all things considered. In this thread, I would think the thoughts are geared more towards hubs that stand a chance of not being a hub in the near future. In this context, hubs such as LAX, ATL, ORD, EWR, and even DEN & DFW are not very likely candidates.

I can see what you mean by poor english, I guess what you're intending to say is that at places like DFW, DEN, ATL, LAX, etc, is that if one airline pulls out, someone else will be there with a major hub operaton, right?

The thought of DFW losing their AA hub... rediculous!! although I don't intend to stimey away from your original point tho!



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2499 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 19):
I guess what you're intending to say is that at places like DFW, DEN, ATL, LAX, etc, is that if one airline pulls out, someone else will be there with a major hub operaton, right?

With the hubs cited here, absolutely...and to that list could be added a few more.



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4106 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2390 times:

Quoting Jawake (Reply 10):
SLC & PDX also sound like candidates given their size. What do you think?

This has been the big reason SLC has not taken on a massive terminal/concourse rebuild that was proposed back in 1998. With DL out of BK and not a take-over target from the Doug Parker's of the airline world, they now feel better about moving forward with it, especially since their O&D load now exceeds what the current facilities were designed for. The only merger scenario that would eliminate SLC as a hub would be a DL/UA combination which would move virtually everything over to DEN.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9236 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2379 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 21):
The only merger scenario that would eliminate SLC as a hub would be a DL/UA combination which would move virtually everything over to DEN.

And how likely is that? I guess there are better odds of me getting struck by lightning twice!



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2336 times:

Quoting Jawake (Thread starter):
Should CVG be nervous? CLE? MSP

hahaha CVG is pretty much dead other than OH(and i think the LGW,AMS,FRA and CDG will go OH when they make a CRJ-200LLLLLLLLLLLLLR model lol)

Quoting Jawake (Reply 4):
So what do you do with DTW & CVG?

i hope thats a joke

Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 8):
MEM probably would lose to ATL

probably if MEM wins then so will CVG

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 22):
And how likely is that? I guess there are better odds of me getting struck by lightning twice!

lol

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 17):
Why is so funny?, DFW is a very busy airport too and that didn't keep DL from de-hubbing it.

its called Leo Mullin(aka the Delta killer)



yep.
User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2695 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2307 times:

Wasn't NW threatening to stop its hub at MSP in the 1990s? And the Metropolitan Airports Commission has some deal with NW to still have a hub at MSP.


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
25 Post contains images MasseyBrown : Obviously, based on reading this thread, ORD is the only safe hub. People can devise scenarios in which any and all of the others are doomed. Even ATL
26 Jawake : Nope, sorry. I would find it hard to believe that if DL/NW Merge, both hubs would be left intact. DTW with its international connections and new faci
27 SkyyMaster : PDX is a hub? For? AS focus city but a hub? Or am I reading this wrong? Your later comparison of DL and DFW do not work with UA and DEN. First, UA is
28 DeltaL1011man : i was saying i hope your joking about which one they would keep CVG or DTW(and they would keep DTW BTW)
29 Jawake : Sorry I was not clear, glad we agree!
30 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : Hardly likely at all! I just don't think you're going to see two of the three largest carriers merge, unless one was on the verge of Chapter 7, and t
31 747fan : I'd say the same goes with PHL, IAH, DFW, and MIA. Also DL's JFK hub.
32 AS739X : Portland is an Alaska/Horizon hub. Though clearly its more of a Horizon city if you want to look at it that way. But Air Group as a whole has over 10
33 Steeler83 : I think the idea of DL having one of their biggest financial partners based at one of their hubs, yeah, I don't think they're going to want to stab A
34 RSBJ : Just thought I'd share with you that the rumor at WN is 65 flights a day at PIT by the end of next year. I think that's a little ambitious, but we'll
35 Jetdeltamsy : My opinion is that should DL and NW merge, which i am highly skeptical about the possibilities of this actually happening, I think CVG would be scale
36 Post contains images FlyDeltaJets87 : No doubt CVG would see the axe, or at best, be kept as a minor focus city. DTW has the international routes as well as a much larger O&D base. CVG is
37 Jawake : That would be great if it is true. I would be hoping for PIT-MHT, but we will see. I would imagine PIT would be very very willing to accommodate WN i
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