PanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 3882 posts, RR: 96 Posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13066 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW COMMUNITY MANAGER
That's correct, even though VS have 6 deferred A380s, they have confirmed an RFP has been issued for as many as 10 A380s or B747-8I to replace their LGW based 744s with delivery scheduled for 2012.
Oct. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd., the U.K. carrier owned by billionaire Richard Branson, said it's in talks with Boeing Co. and Airbus SAS over an order for as many as 10 widebody aircraft with a list price of $3.5 billion.
The airline will choose between Airbus A380 superjumbos and Boeing's 747-8 series, spokesman Paul Charles said in an interview. The planes will replace eight 747-400s stationed at London's Gatwick airport and will be delivered to coincide with the 2012 Olympic Games, which will be staged in the U.K. capital.
Flying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4073 posts, RR: 44 Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13075 times:
Do we have to read this as 6 deffered A380 plus 10 additional A380/B748 or either a top up by 4 A380 or a new order for 10 B748 as a replacement for the deffered A380 order and this additional requirement?
Danny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3432 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13029 times:
Sounds like back door to get better price for the A380. Virgin was the looser comparing to other A380 customers as they requested to delay their deliveries hence were not entitled to compensation because of production delays.
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 53 Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12864 times:
Interesting. After all Branson has said about the 747 and after ditching basically their "4 engines 4 longhaul" strategy with their 787 purchase, I didn't think VS would consider buying any 747s anymore. Hopefully they'll make a 747-8I order, it would definitely help the Intercontinental gain some ground. I'm sure both the 747-8I and A380 can also compliment each other at VS, the way LH is predicting for their upcoming new fleet.
ANstar From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 4482 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12835 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6): I'm sure both the 747-8I and A380 can also compliment each other at VS, the way LH is predicting for their upcoming new fleet.
The A380 has to win this.
Thereis no sense in having a mixed fleet of 6 x A380's and 10 x 748i's.
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2829 posts, RR: 73 Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12813 times:
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
Very interesting but Airbus may well have the upper hand if deliveries of the deferred A380s can be brought forward.
One important factor to take into consideration is that Virgin currently have 6 A380's on order + another 6 options.
Since most major airlines are closely looking towards the A380, it seems doubtful that Mr Branson would do a U- turn and opt for the 748i.
One question that still remain unclear is which British airlines would be getting the first A380, BA or VS?
B747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 16087 posts, RR: 12 Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12786 times:
Quoting ANstar (Reply 7): Thereis no sense in having a mixed fleet of 6 x A380's and 10 x 748i's.
There is absolutely a sense of having 6x A380s and 10x 748i's.
VS cant send their A380 to every were. The market is not so big for the A380 on every VS route. The cities that not can handle the A380 will then get the 748i.
BrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1234 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12788 times:
This is Airbus' to loose. Virgin don't want B747-8's, they want A380's. The game of "My A380 fleet's bigger than yours" is about to start now that BA has ordered the beast, a move maybe unexpected by VS.
Unless the economics of the B747-8 outperform those of the A380, which I highly reasonably doubt, it will be an order for the A380.
With the open skies agreement, VS needs the A380 to face the blood bath that will take place at LON. The B787 will be used for more point-to-point service maybe from the Continent and to open up new destinations.
I guess the main question in fleet planning is what will VS choose to put between the B787 and the A380 in their fleet. 777NG or A350?
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 53 Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12719 times:
Quoting ANstar (Reply 7): Thereis no sense in having a mixed fleet of 6 x A380's and 10 x 748i's.
Tell that to LH, as they ordered 15 (?) A380s and 20 747-8Is. It does make sense, otherwise LH wouldn't have ordered a mixed fleet like that.
Just look at the similarities between the two airlines. VS has a fleet of A343s, A346s and 747s. LH has the same longhaul fleet VS currently has, the A333 being the exception as VS doesn't operate those and LH is expanding their A330 fleet for themselves and for LX. Anyway, the A343s are most likely to go once the first 787s enter service, and if there's a void between the A346 and A380 that can be filled as far as capacity is concerned, the 747-8I would be the perfect aircraft.
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 6505 posts, RR: 5 Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12709 times:
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
The airline will choose between Airbus A380 superjumbos and Boeing's 747-8 series, spokesman Paul Charles said in an interview. The planes will replace eight 747-400s stationed at London's Gatwick airport
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6): Hopefully they'll make a 747-8I order, it would definitely help the Intercontinental gain some ground. I'm sure both the 747-8I and A380 can also compliment each other at VS, the way LH is predicting for their upcoming new fleet.
I think the 747-8I has good chances. It offers commonality with the 787-9 on order. The aircraft would be based at LGW and are more for high yield routes rather than premium routes.
So I can think that VS fleet could look like this: 10 A380 for LHR serving premium routes and 10 747-8I for LGW and below that the 787-9s.
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12719 times:
Quoting B747forever (Reply 9): VS cant send their A380 to every were. The market is not so big for the A380 on every VS route. The cities that not can handle the A380 will then get the 748i.
UAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3218 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12703 times:
I wish VS would make there mind up. 4 Engines, 2 engines, defer delivery of the A380...now this......do they have a stategy or is this all reactionary?
JumpJet From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 175 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12688 times:
I wonder whether this is SRB's reaction to the recent BA order for the A380? After all, hadn't BA said for a long time that they wouldn't even look at the A380 until it had proved itself in service, yet in the end they placed a substantial order prior to that happening?
Knowing how competitive SRB is, do you think he's been rather upstaged by the recent BA order and that this news is an attempt to perhaps regain the upper hand. My thoughts are that there's a great deal of prestige involved to be the first UK airline to operate the A380 on routes out of LHR and I can't honestly see VS wishing to hand this to BA on a plate!
Chiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 793 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12595 times:
Quoting JumpJet (Reply 15): I wonder whether this is SRB's reaction to the recent BA order for the A380? After all, hadn't BA said for a long time that they wouldn't even look at the A380 until it had proved itself in service, yet in the end they placed a substantial order prior to that happening?
I think that the A380 has already proved itself in service, and it performs better than anticipated.
I think the A380 has been flying with airline crew from Air France, Singapore Airlines and Emirates Airlines.
That's why BA went for it now, and that's why we see a "rush" of new orders.
Parapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1209 posts, RR: 10 Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12595 times:
I agree with Jumpjet. This seems to be a very knee jerk reaction. Whatever RB is he is not stupid. He must -at the time he said it clearly thought that he would not be making any 4 holer purchases in the near future-but here he is doing it. It also does not make sense delaying your 380 order missing the rebate -then bringing it back forwards again.
Don't you get the feeling that he is being terribly outmanovered by a certain WW! I read the Virgin CEO in the papers screaming about the potental tie up between BA and American.(the 3rd attempt?). But failing to point out that the fourthcoming open skies agreement changes everything. Indeed it is openly being discussed that Virgin are equiping (I believe A319's) to do US /Europe open skies runs. He can't have it both ways.
JerseyFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 311 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12508 times:
There is a chance for 748I here. Some of the airports VS fly their LGW 744s to may not be prepared to invest for A388s - such as Antigua, Tobago, St Lucia, Barbados which all currently do support the 744s.
On the other hand VS has apparently deferred firm A346s, so if they don't want them, and are not planning an A350 order, then additional A388s as a quid pro quo for cancelled A346s would make sense.
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 21 Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12508 times:
Quoting Columba (Reply 2): What were they saying two months ago ? Something like : never 4 engines again.......
I was under the impression that the exact statement was that they wouldn't buy "inefficient 4 engined jets". As the a380's are efficient 4 engined jets they can buy them. My point: you can spin their PR any way you want to. VS is mostly about PR, always has been, from "no way BA/AA", to "4 engines 4 long haul" to this banter about 4 engined jets.
ANstar From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 4482 posts, RR: 5 Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12498 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11): Tell that to LH, as they ordered 15 (?) A380s and 20 747-8Is. It does make sense, otherwise LH wouldn't have ordered a mixed fleet like that.
Look at the numbers witht hat order though 15 + 20 VOLUME!
Danny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3432 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12487 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11): Tell that to LH, as they ordered 15 (?) A380s and 20 747-8Is. It does make sense, otherwise LH wouldn't have ordered a mixed fleet like that.
LH is much bigger than VS so they can afford more diverse fleet. Not to mention desperate Boeing gave them 748i pretty much at cost.
CHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5886 posts, RR: 68 Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12469 times:
Quoting JumpJet (Reply 15): I wonder whether this is SRB's reaction to the recent BA order for the A380? After all, hadn't BA said for a long time that they wouldn't even look at the A380 until it had proved itself in service, yet in the end they placed a substantial order prior to that happening?
Knowing how competitive SRB is, do you think he's been rather upstaged by the recent BA order and that this news is an attempt to perhaps regain the upper hand. My thoughts are that there's a great deal of prestige involved to be the first UK airline to operate the A380 on routes out of LHR and I can't honestly see VS wishing to hand this to BA on a plate!
Its been a couple of weeks since the BA order, and I am positive they havent written up an RFP and done the maths this quickly. This is a rumour, nothing more, of something that had to have been underway long before BA ordered their A388s.
Quoting Keesje (Reply 13): .. or one of their many new A340-600's
They hate them, wish they hadnt ordered them, and cannot wait to get rid of them because they are so gas-guzzling - everyone knows that!
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
Bongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 2575 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12345 times:
Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 18): There is a chance for 748I here. Some of the airports VS fly their LGW 744s to may not be prepared to invest for A388s - such as Antigua, Tobago, St Lucia, Barbados which all currently do support the 744s.
Having visited Antigua, St Lucia & Barbados, I can see few problems with them becoming A380 compatible. They are all basically a long runway, a concrete apron, and a terminal building where you walk to the plane, where a busy period consists of 1x VS 747, 1 x BA 777, a AA MD 80 & various Liat turboprops. In conclusion a few loads of concrete on some of the taxiway corners should do it. The runways should have ample strength, as they were mainly built by the US military as potential wartime forward bases.
The main question in all this however is quite how does this fit in with the present deferred order. Their existing order has been deferred to 2013, surely the 1st priority would be to ask Airbus to bring this back to 2012 ?. In addition I recall BA saying only last month that they hoped to get their 1st two in time for the Olympics, this suggests that VS have little chance of getting significant deliveries in time for this.
This all seems to be a VS kneejerk reaction, to finding out that BA will now be the 1st UK airline to operate the A380, due to their own decision to defer deliveries. The "consideration" of the 748I seems to be an attempt to persuade Boeing to let them move back up the queue
Jdevora From Spain, joined Aug 2006, 340 posts, RR: 8 Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12203 times:
Quoting B747forever (Reply 9): VS cant send their A380 to every were. The market is not so big for the A380 on every VS route. The cities that not can handle the A380 will then get the 748i.
Has the 744 and the 748i the same airport requirements? My understanding was that the 748 had a higher airport cat. than the 744
Cheers
JD
[Edited 2007-10-18 03:18:42]
25 EDDB: But supporting 744s does not mean that they automatically support 748Is.... Isn't that the same? Or what do you mean by premium routes.....? Totally
27 Columba: I mean that in LGW they have a high number of passengers which mostly fly economy or premium economy. With premium routes I mean routes with lots of
28 EDDB: Ah okay... But in this case LGW is kind of low yield, not high yield... That's what's been a little misleading....
30 RIX: ...and all the others - you compare numbers as if 748 and 380 are of about the same capacity. If VS can't fill that many 380s, part of it will go to
31 CHRISBA777ER: I suspect the C class yields are not wonderful but the ex-LGW Y class yields are pretty much the best in the VS network.
32 Voodoo: Tend to agree here. Those airports can't take A346s and the footprint difference between the 346 and 744 is about the same as the 748 and 744.
33 EDDB: Actually I don't have a clue about VS yields.... Was just referring to a comment by Columba.... There is a critical number in fleet size and since yo
34 ANstar: The capacity difference isn;t enough to order both planes in such low quantities. You can bang onb all you like about LH, but they are they only airl
35 Stitch: Honest question - how well would an A388 fit into LGW's infrastructure? Are they planning dual-level jetways? And for the Caribbean airports that use
36 Columba: EK and TG are currently evaluating the 747-8I and EK might place an order at the Dubai Air Show. There are airlines that have only ordered 4 or 5 A38
37 SEPilot: I find it curious that they would be looking at the 748i considering they have firm orders for the A380 that are deferred, unless they are just doing
38 EI321: Wise move on the part of VS. They can probably now renegociate the entire A380 deal and get a better price, with the possibility of ordering the A350-
39 EDDB: But also these airlines don't operate 2 subtypes in small numbers.... I can't see how the 2-different-airports situation should make a small subfleet
40 Revelation: Let's see: we'll pour more capacity into a market that's about to be swamped with more capacity - good plan! They do what is good for them at each mo
41 EDDB: I'd rather think that they missed the chance of getting more A388s at bargain prices plus a nice compensation payment! Now that the A388 is more or l
42 RIX: - as it's not a professional/expert forum, nor am I spending days and nights here, I'm not obliged to know anything very well or even somewhat well.
43 EDDB: Ah, come on, 1446 posts is quite an impressive number (7x my posts actually....), no need to be overmodest! Cause BA decided either or, and not both
44 Carls: I would say that A350-1000 should be the perfect candidate to fill this gap.
45 YULWinterSkies: They just can't let BA say "mine bigger than yours"
46 Columba: The A350-1000 is a A346 replacement there would still be a gap
47 JumpJet: How many rumours concerning VS's future "plans" for re-equipping have we discused / argued about on this site? More than I can remember - and how many
48 RIX: - for 7 x your time here... post per year we are about equal . Back to critical amount: BA ordering only one type has nothing to do with it being cri
49 BrightCedars: Arguments: - LHR is and will always be slot constrained: newcomers will pay heavy to get into the game - VS is a local player and enjoys the status o
50 EDDB: Never said that 6 makes sense, I actually said the following... To be fair BA ordered 12+7 and since they don't have a history of jumping around and
51 Behramjee: VS's LGW based B 744s seat 450 pax in a 3 class layout i.e. C + P + Y It is believed that the main reason for VS defering their A 380 delivery is fina
52 Columba: Hey, you stole that yoke from me out of the "how will VS react to the BA order" thread
53 RIX: OK, forget about BA too, now neither LH nor BA exist (man, what a huge hole ...). Just read below: - I never said you said , I said why 6 was never t
54 EDDB: I'll try.... 6 A388 => no sense, too small 6 A388 +10 748I =>no sense, A388 still too small, 748I probably as well, together creating more complexity
55 Kappel: Really? How do they do that? KLM's 744's seat 420 in a 2 class config. Are you sure about that number? Must be a horrible cattle class then...
56 RIX: But it's not what I asked about: my question was, "is it '6 was OK...'", while you start with "6 => too small" . My point is that no "6 380s is too f
57 Astuteman: Nothing wrong with that as a strategy either.......... Regards
58 Avek00: IMHO, this has virtually nothing to do with BA's A380 order, or even the deferral of the existing VS A380 order (which is likely as good as dead no ma
59 Flysherwood: What are you talking about? It just got delivered to SIA. It is not even in service yet with them.
60 Richard28: quote from CNN Money, October 17th 2007: "Ridgway said the airline remains committed to taking delivery of the six A380 Airbus airplanes it has on or
61 Aerofan: this makes little sense. VS are using their B744 to fly to places where a smaller aircraft would sometimes be a lot better, eg Montego Bay, Tobago, Cu
62 Avek00: I wouldn't have expected a VS spokseperson to say anything else. That said, actions speak louder than words, and airlines that delay deliveries for m
63 EBJ1248650: Does this mean they're going to modify their original order and instead of taking 6 with 6 options go for 10 firm orders with no options? And I don't
64 Flysherwood: Why? The CASM of the 787 is about the same as the A380 without having to fill 500+ seats day in and day out.
65 Scbriml: So explain why any airline is buying anything bigger than a 787?
66 United_Fan: Add LAS to this list. I've read that the underground tunnels there cannot hold an A380.
67 Flysherwood: It will be a niche player in the high density arena. Everything else will be twins, either the 787 or the A350.
68 Scbriml: You haven't answered my question. You implied that since the CASM of a 787 is about the same as an A380, the "logic" should be to buy the smaller pla
69 Flysherwood: It is the 787 specifically as will be the A350 that has about the same CASM due to their operating efficiency. They are buying the 777 and A330's bec
70 Scbriml: I believe the A380 has lower pavement loading than a 744, so if the underground tunnels at LAS can handle a 744, they should be able to handle an A38
71 Kaneporta1: Even though I would like to see VS add 10 more A380s I have a feeling that what's going to happen is: VS will go for the 747-800 and convert the A380
72 Flysherwood: In case you haven't noticed. The plane that is selling by the hundreds happens to be the 787. Right around 730 of them.
73 PW100: I was wondering the same thing. Never mind putting 420-430 in a 3-class 773ER . . . ??
74 United_Fan: I found this article : http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/st...un/2006/jan/23/520008974.html?A380
75 Bongodog1964: All I can say is, take it as read, it really is that tight.
76 Jacobin777: ...I was going to say that also but I figured I'd get a flaming for it so I figured I would keep my gob shut .....the A350-1000 would be perfectly su
77 KC135TopBoom: No, it is the A-380's to loose. LH doesn't think so. I think BA will also fly both VLAs How do you know that?
78 Buckeye: According to an article published by Time in May 2001, the price Virgin Atlantic paid for the first six A380s was probably 40% off of the list price o
79 Scbriml: In case you haven't noticed, I said larger than a 787.
80 EI321: But LH have a way bigger fleet than VS. What happened to the argument that BA would not order the A380? It quietly dissapeared, as have BA's statemen
81 Carls: [quote=RIX,reply=48]- ??? 35A is going to be smaller than 346, isn't it?[/quote I think the A351 will be bigger than the A346. Not longer but bigger.
82 EI321: Capacity is about the same. The A350-1000 replaces the A346
84 Flysherwood: Really, what hundreds would that be? The 777? Already answered that. The A380? Not hundreds!!!
85 Iwok: NO: 4-engines 4 long-haul WAS: 2-engines 2 late NOW: 4-engines 4 ever Talk about hot winded flip flap from these guys. One minute its 2 engines are u
86 Mbj-11: The possibility exists that the A380 could be used as a one stone kill two cities so to speak in the case of Havanna and Montego Bay. Also since the
87 Kaitak744: VS never said that they want to start buying 4 engined aircraft. They simply need a large aircraft, and there is nothing available with 2 engines tha
88 Iwok: Your statement makes good business sense but... TWO CAN Virgin Thread "Global warming has become a priority, but it also makes good economic sense to
89 Revelation: Yes, but the RFP is for planes to be based at LGW, no?
90 Columba: I could live with that 787-9, A350-/-900/-1000,747-8I nice and balanced fleet
91 Stitch: I can't see VS taking the 747-8I unless they cannot get A380s into and out of certain airports effectively and there would be insufficient slots on ei
92 Stitch: I remain skeptical on the A358 and A359 for VS, for the 787-9 make a fine A340-300 replacement, of which VS only operates 6 of, yet they have 15 787s
93 Jfk777: IF VS dosn't order 748 then they will need 777-300ER or other big twins. To go from 787-9 to A380 leaves a huge gap, especially if they have the LGW &
94 Scbriml: That gap is currently filled with very new A346s (with 6 more still to come). It is extremely unlikely that VS will order 77Ws.
95 Aerofan: nah i don't see this. i strongly believe that the only reason - ba ordered the 380!
96 ERAUgrad02: I'm not understanding why people think the 747-8i is as nice as A380. What features does A380 have that 747-8i doesnt. The arguement of yours is bigge
97 Asiaflyer: Apart from the economics, see how much attention the A380 gets in media. Even my mother have heard about the A380 Superjumbo, and thats not from me.
98 Stitch: I am going to hazard a guess that you meant to add that "not" in your statement. Quite simply, the A380-800 is a brand-new platform starting her life
99 United Airline: I suppose VS will place a large order on both the A 380 as well as the B 747-8. Maybe an additional 4 A 380s and around 10-15 B 747-8s eventually Why
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