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787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order  
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5732 posts, RR: 48
Posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15853 times:

Looks like Boeing has to sharpen their pencils if they want this one:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...=conews&tkr=BA:US&sid=aYDrYaHJeGM0


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCaptainsimon From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15760 times:

I'm sure this engine has a between 53,000 - 75,000 LBS of thrust, surely this should be enough?

User currently offline9V-SPJ From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15735 times:

So is Tim Clark saying, that he, a CEO of an airline, mores much more about the thrust requirements of an aircraft than the manufacturer does?

9V-SPJ


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5732 posts, RR: 48
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15744 times:

Quoting Captainsimon (Reply 1):
I'm sure this engine has a between 53,000 - 75,000 LBS of thrust, surely this should be enough?

They might want higher performance levels since they're flying out of Dubai with the hot dry air around there.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15722 times:

I don't think EK is all that serious about the 787. If they were, they would enter into a similar agreement airlines have for the A350 - sign up for the plane now with an out if the plane fails to meet their requirements. Boeing doesn't seem to be offering this kind of deal, indicating to me how they view EK's intentions. IMO.

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15698 times:

"''It needs more thrust,'' Clark said in the interview in Cannes, southern France. '"

Might that be Toulouse where he was giving that interview ?



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5732 posts, RR: 48
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15607 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 5):
Might that be Toulouse where he was giving that interview ?

No he was in Cannes.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4315 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15577 times:

While it would be a bad business move, I think Boeing should cede this order to Airbus and not push the extremes of their development resources in order to cater to the needs of one carrier. Besides, just like the 748i is intended to pressure Airbus' margins, rather than increase Boeing's, letting Airbus' next new project, the A350, be dominated by a single Middle East carrier just like the A380 was/is puts Airbus at considerable risk. Heck, if Airbus wins this order they might as well change their name to EKBus (or even ClarkBus).


I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineJustloveplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1037 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15547 times:

Boeing should just give this one to Airbus. Airbus looks to be designing the A350 to tailor fit EK, and Boeing won't be able to match that focus - they have a broader committment to the market. Might do them good to keep Airbus on its toes and pretend its serious.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30571 posts, RR: 84
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15550 times:
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This might actually be good news for Boeing, in that he might feel 560,000lbs MTOW is good enough if he can ensure that the GE engines can lift that off a DXB 365-days a year...

I expect GE can meet the challenge, as will RR with the Trent 1000...


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9603 posts, RR: 69
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15420 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

More of the same from Mr Clark.

Make it just a bit lighter, or longer, or more capacity, or more range and we might buy it.

Sign for 50 + 50 and we can build to order.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30571 posts, RR: 84
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15382 times:
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Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 10):
More of the same from Mr Clark...Make it just a bit lighter, or longer, or more capacity, or more range and we might buy it.

He's either laying some PR groundwork to explain why he buys 50-100 A350's next month or, since he'll be buying more then 50-100 planes in this class, he's telling Boeing and GE what they have to do to win the next 50-100 planes in that class he orders after the initial A350 order.


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8865 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15358 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 3):
They might want higher performance levels since they're flying out of Dubai with the hot dry air around there.

I think that is the driving factor, more thrust, leaves more margin for hot and high performance.

Interesting to see the comment from GE

"We're gratified Emirates is interested in the GEnx,'' said Rick Kennedy, a spokesman for Fairfield, Connecticut- based GE. ''At this juncture it's premature, because the 787- 10 hasn't been formally offered to airlines.''

Kinda makes puts to rest a lot of scuttlebutt on here about 787-10 and 787-11 ...

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 7):
Heck, if Airbus wins this order they might as well change their name to EKBus (or even ClarkBus).

Boeing have had their fair share of niche customers with products, the 764 and 748i are a classic examples, are you going to come up with names from them as well ? e.g. WeinerJet, Jumbokraut, BuchholzJet, 748-Interthansa ?

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 10):
Sign for 50 + 50 and we can build to order.

Stay here or take away !!  Wink



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15321 times:

Quoting 9V-SPJ (Reply 2):
Tim Clark saying, that he, a CEO of an airline, mores much more about the thrust requirements of an aircraft than the manufacturer does?

Tim Clark actually being an Arabic synonym for omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. For short: GOD. Close rivaled by SUH and MOL.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30571 posts, RR: 84
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15281 times:
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Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
"We're gratified Emirates is interested in the GEnx,'' said Rick Kennedy, a spokesman for Fairfield, Connecticut- based GE. ''At this juncture it's premature, because the 787- 10 hasn't been formally offered to airlines.''

Kinda makes puts to rest a lot of scuttlebutt on here about 787-10 and 787-11 ...

Boeing says the 787-10, at least, will happen, so they're at least shopping it.

After all, how would Clark not know the thrust wasn't sufficient if Boeing hadn't told them the figure?  Wink


User currently offlineKaneporta1 From Greece, joined May 2005, 739 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15223 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
After all, how would Clark not know the thrust wasn't sufficient if Boeing hadn't told them the figure?

I think Clark is tired of saying "Bigger MTOW" so he just gave it a different spin this time...



I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8188 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15204 times:

Why GE? Why not RR?

Could it be that he is trying to help the 350-1000 get a GE engine via an indirect route?


User currently offlineNycbjr From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 15136 times:

So this is a silly question, and no one take offense to this.. but how many airplanes does a airline in a country of less than 4 million inhabitants really need?

just curious.. again no one take offense or jump on me.

For me I do hope Boeing launched a HGW 787, but does it make sense? Only time and Boeing knows..

Cheers
Brett


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6710 posts, RR: 32
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 15063 times:

Quote:
Rolls-Royce Group Plc offers engines for both the A350 and 787 and has a more powerful version that may suit Emirates' requirements, Clark said. Still, the CEO said he would prefer to have a choice.

So, let me see if I've got this right. Tim Clark is saying that Emirates would choose to order the A350XWB-900, a model where the current engine choice is Rolls-Royce or Rolls-Royce, because he might not have a choice between GE & Rolls-Royce on the still-undefined 787-10?  rotfl 


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12892 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14898 times:
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Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
"We're gratified Emirates is interested in the GEnx,'' said Rick Kennedy, a spokesman for Fairfield, Connecticut- based GE. ''At this juncture it's premature, because the 787- 10 hasn't been formally offered to airlines.''

Kinda makes puts to rest a lot of scuttlebutt on here about 787-10 and 787-11 ...

It also makes a point to GE that to be on the 787-10 (if it happens) they need more thrust. If EK is willing to be the launch customer, Boeing would be silly not to look into the business case.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 18):
So, let me see if I've got this right. Tim Clark is saying that Emirates would choose to order the A350XWB-900, a model where the current engine choice is Rolls-Royce or Rolls-Royce, because he might not have a choice between GE & Rolls-Royce on the still-undefined 787-10?

That would be EK negotiation at its finest. If EK can get GE to commit, then they can bid the A350 vs. the 787 and on the 787 bid RR vs. GE. It forces RR to lower their price on the A350 and 787. So from a negotiating/CASM standpoint, it makes all the sense in the world.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14853 times:

Quoting Nycbjr (Reply 17):
So this is a silly question, and no one take offense to this.. but how many airplanes does a airline in a country of less than 4 million inhabitants really need?

just curious.. again no one take offense or jump on me.

Its important to remember that if they chose 100 A350's [for example], these aircraft would be replacing their existing A330, A340 and 777 fleets in the long term, so the overall fleet expansion would not be very big.


User currently offlineFlysherwood From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14754 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
Boeing have had their fair share of niche customers with products, the 764 and 748i are a classic examples, are you going to come up with names from them as well ?

So, are you saying that the A380 and A350 are only niche players?  Wink


User currently offlineRIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14738 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
Kinda makes puts to rest a lot of scuttlebutt on here about 787-10 and 787-11

especially after BA mentioned 787-10 in official press-release...


User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3916 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14620 times:

Quoting Nycbjr (Reply 17):
So this is a silly question, and no one take offense to this.. but how many airplanes does a airline in a country of less than 4 million inhabitants really need?

You've not been to Dubai, have you?

While I dont like the country itself (awful desert climate, tacky 'archirecture', etc) DXB itself is a fantastically placed hub for Europe/US East Coast to Asia/Oceana, EK has ambitious aims to connect pretty much everywhere, to everywhere via DXB, with a very good product and compeditive fares.

That said, if the global economy does go belly up, EK might be parking a lot of ots fleet at Jebel Ali (JXB)!



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30571 posts, RR: 84
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14566 times:
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Quoting Nycbjr (Reply 17):
So this is a silly question, and no one take offense to this.. but how many airplanes does a airline in a country of less than 4 million inhabitants really need?

Because a heck of a lot more then 4 million people use that airline...

EK serves a significantly larger customer base then just the Emirates themselves.


25 AirbusA6 : While acknowledging that the GEnX is a fine engine, I wonder if GE misjudged the design of the original GEnX slightly, as it does appear to the outsid
26 Keesje : I think most 787 will not been used on flights longer then 10 hrs. So its optimized for that segment and aircraft with capasity < 300 seats. I think
27 Bongodog1964 : This is a question I have asked myself on quite a few occasions. Dubai is certainly a hot spot for tourism and International travel at present; but w
28 DAYflyer : I think if he really wanted the 787 he could have worked with Boeing very closely on 787-10 specs and had it done by now. EK will sign a large A350 or
29 RedFlyer : Boeing didn't sink billions into those products, which are in themselves niche. Boeing also didn't bank the fortunes of the company on them nor tout
30 Stitch : When GE designed the GEnx, there was no airframe planned that required more then 75,000lbs of thrust. If Airbus had countered with the A350XWB in 200
31 Rbgso : Ah, but once he signs, he won't have the aviation press hanging on his every word and the manufacturers eating out of his hand. I don't think he coul
32 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : I agree, Boeing has more to worry about than trying to sell 100 B-787s to an airline that has 48 A-380s on order. Give this to the A-350-900 and let
33 Post contains images Aerokiwi : Could the demands for GE be linked to their 748i/F order? Commonality between the two in the engine department would probably be desirable (and before
34 EI321 : Let's not be coy about this. Emirates is the worlds biggest 777 customer, and its the airline that has been the definitive '787-10 launch customer' f
35 TXKF2010 : Here's my question, it maybe be a silly question but all this talk about GE n RR, what the hell happened to PW?
36 Stitch : I refuse to believe that Boeing and GE are so myopic that they believe the 777 can compete head to head against the A350 and win RFPs. GE has at leas
37 Zeke : They make props dont they ?
38 Gigneil : Do you also ask the same about Singapore? NS
39 Stitch : They make mostly military engines now, through the Geared-TurboFan might very well bring them back to the A320RS and 737RS market in a big way if suc
40 Iwok : This might be an undercover trick to make GE upsize the GENX under the pretenses of a 787 order, and then switch it out to a 350 order and voila: GEN
41 AFGMEL : The middle east is roughly in the centre of the world population-wise. Africa, Asia and Europe. Perfect place for a hub. I am yet to fly EK but I dou
42 VV701 : Toulouse is in Southwest France. Cannes is in Southeast France. What the Bloomberg article says is: "Rolls Royce Group plc offers engines for both th
43 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..besides A.net, no one else has talked about the B787-11 and Boeing have stated in the press the B787-10 is a matter of "when" and not "if"..... LoL
44 Baroque : You would think that Stitch's view had to be correct, but it does appear that there is some hidden number above which GE do not seem to wish to go to
45 Astuteman : The difficulty, really, if that's the case, is that the "glass ceiling" could be as low as 85 000 lb, as its clearly possible to challenge GE90-115 e
46 Carls : Yes. you are rigth. They need "urgent" to find more fasteners.....I could not resist.
47 AirbusA6 : True at the time, but planes always grow. and require more thrust. Compare the thrust requirements of a 739ER with a 737 Classic, a 763ER with an ear
48 Stitch : Yes, but the only planned response to the 777 was the A345E and A346E, both of which were only going to have improved Trent 500 power, so GE was shut
49 Revelation : TC: Dammit, GE, I need more power! GE: Cap'n, I'm givin you all she's got. She cannae take much more of this! Boeing has said it's a matter of when i
50 Columba : How long does it take to build the 787-10ER ? 24 months, Sir ! I give you 6 ! Yes, Sir !
51 Post contains images Revelation : Now all he has to do is program the replicator to make fasteners!
52 StickShaker : Ever heard of a place called Singapore ?? StickShaker
53 CygnusChicago : Despite the abundant conspiracy theories, this is so unlikely. It's a simple case of Tim Clark wanting a larger airline. For most airlines purchasing
54 Post contains images Keesje : I think a bigger elephant dance is going on. GE & Boeing together invested heavely in the Boeing 777. They contracted the exclusivety of the GE90 etc
55 Stitch : They don't have much of a choice if they want to keep the A350 a better option then the 777 and 787 in terms of economics. A few tens of millions wil
56 Post contains images Hloutweg : I agree with you Stitch. The 777 will have it's hour sometime and the A350-9/10 and the 787-10 are there to replace it. Period. I wont can't believe
57 Baroque : Yes, but does that mean that the "ceiling" develops holes, or does it mean that the ceiling gets a bit lower? Time will tell. I suspect GE regards th
58 Stitch : That would be because they evidently have not, and will not for over a decade if reports are to believed. However, I can't understand how this is pos
59 Bongodog1964 : We've heard of it; the big question is why does Dubai need an airline far larger than Singapore ? I can remember the days of exponential growth at SQ
60 Stitch : So they can carry all the passengers that now travel via SIN.
61 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..in fact, that is one of Chew's concerns.....
62 Post contains images Stitch : ...and one of the reasons he wants 20 A388s now and will likely want more later...
63 Khobar : How important is Dubai going to be in the future when aircraft have the range allowing airlines to fly non-stop where they want to? Is this an issue f
64 Post contains images Flysherwood : Here we go again. There is no way in h*** Dubai is going to replace Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo or Shanghai. Dubai will always be a regional hub for
65 Scbriml : I suggest you read up on Dubai if you think all they have is oil. Dubai was originally built on oil, but is now fully diversified in to tax-free trad
66 Flysherwood : And again, I will give you the fact that Dubai will always be THE regional hub for the Middle East. But to suggest that it will replace Singapore, Ho
67 Stitch : When you can fly a 737-800 or an A320-200 10,000nm, then we will see "pure" point-to-point travel because it will be cheap enough, on a trip-cost bas
68 Post contains images Flysherwood : What is that common refrain regarding Real Estate, location, location, location... Oh yeah, and they also have that little thing called a HIGHLY educ
69 Flysherwood : At $89.00/ bbl for oil, that is no small advantage.
70 CygnusChicago : For the rest of the world, i.e. the non-US world, Dubai is already a major international hub on par with Singapore and others. Since 1997 I have flow
71 Post contains images Stitch : Again, so? It's not like every Singaporean is out there drumming up business for SQ and Changi via white papers and PowerPoint presentations... And m
72 Scbriml : You seem to be missing is that it's becoming the World's de-facto hub. As EK's fleet (and network) grows, they are connecting more points in the Worl
73 Post contains images Flysherwood : Yeah, cause Portland, Oregon is the backwater of the US! For those of us who actually buy and sell tangible materials, we have come to realize that t
74 Post contains images Stitch : Uh, we've (or at least I've) been discussing transit passenger traffic, not O&D passenger traffic...
75 Boeing7E7 : This has to be the lamest claim I've heard. The hot field performance of a 787-8 is 10,000' and 11,000' for the -9. More thrust for what? Mach 1???
76 Tdscanuck : GE is probably around breaking even on the basic GE90 program about now. They certainly aren't rolling in cash on it yet. There probably isn't a snow
77 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..maybe you can explain to the board here as to why one of Chew's two concerns was specifically EK? In summer of 2004, EK started their DXB-JFK route
78 Zeke : If they have about the same or worse thrust to weight ratio as a 777, at MTOW I don't see their performance to be that stellar.
79 Stitch : Yet it cannot be that bad since EK flies more of them then anyone else and chose it over the four-engined A346, which one would think would have bett
80 Zeke : If the 777 does not have "hot field performance" of 10,000'-11,000', I don't see how the 787 could. The 346 does have better hot/high performance, as
81 Post contains images RedFlyer : I've heard that argument before. The problem with it is that circuit boards and CPU chips and bank notes don't care if they are routed through hubs a
82 Post contains images Iwok : I'd guess they are waiting for information from Airbus on the 3510. The -8 & -9 are perfect for the current crop of GenX engines, but Airbus won't le
83 Stitch : Never been my stance... *shrug* A better wing? The 777-200 has similar thrust and MTOWs to the 787-9, so the wing is about the only difference I can
84 Boeing7E7 : The 787 runway performance is steller. A base runway length of 9,200' is incredible. The 777 needs 11,600' so I guess it needs more power too. Like I
85 SOBHI51 : Not as loud as the sound coming from Seattle if UA,CO,DL go south which is more likely. [Edited 2007-10-20 10:59:31][Edited 2007-10-20 11:02:12]
86 Stitch : Please be careful and quote the right person. RedFlyer made the quote, and not me: [Edited 2007-10-20 10:58:30]
87 SOBHI51 : OOOOPS my mistake ,having a lot of problems since they upgraded the website.
88 RIX : - does any of the three have a huge Boeing order, crucial for one of the Boeing programs, a sheer disaster if the order is canceled?
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