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NH Talks To Airbus About A380  
User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2307 posts, RR: 5
Posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13532 times:

Flightglobal confirms that All Nippon is in preliminary talks with Airbus about the A380. See

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ptimistic-of-all-nippon-order.html

Quote:
"We are studying the A380 and we do talk to Airbus But (an order for the A380) is not a decision we would arrive at quickly."

However, if an A380 order was placed, ANA says that the aircraft would probably be used to high-traffic, long-haul destinations such as Frankfurt and New York.

ANA rules out replacing the 744D's with the A380 as the new Haneda runway will give them more slots.


Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13474 times:

Good for Airbus but I am afraid of the first A380 painted with pokemon cartoons......


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13406 times:

Should ANA buy the a380 it will a major victory for them, since ANA has effictively gone all Boeing (when the last a320's/a321's are replaced), and they had indicated they wanted to go with smaller aircraft. Who knows, it may persuade JAL to go with the a380 as well. I don't expect big numbers though...


L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineJimbo27L From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13271 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 2):
I don't expect big numbers though...

Any numbers would be good numbers for Airbus - important for them to keep some momentum rolling on this product. Getting the thing in service with SQ and acquiring in service performance data for the hard sell ahead along with the recent BA order, should hopefully cap off and consolidate a decent year after the delays.

The prospect of getting another carrier on board (especially JAL or ANA) hopefully signals blue skies ahead for 2008.


User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1940 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13179 times:

Not really new news isn't? It's good to see that ANA is officially stating that they are in talks with Airbus on the A380. I think they will eventually buy 6-7 of them, which is a low number, but nevertheless a good sign for Airbus.

Cheers!  wave 



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3516 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13168 times:

Yet another airline that had "no plans" to buy A380 and according to some A.netters would never ever buy it.

User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10010 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13108 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 5):
according to some A.netters would never ever buy it

It wasn't the a.netters who said that NH will not buy the A380 but the airline itself who publicly made this clear from the beginning!  Smile

A388


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12923 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
It wasn't the a.netters who said that NH will not buy the A380 but the airline itself who publicly made this clear from the beginning! Smile

No, they always said they will look at it and if they see the need for it they would buy it:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...oor-open-for-a380-despite-777.html



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12871 times:

Quoting Jimbo27L (Reply 3):
Any numbers would be good numbers for Airbus - important for them to keep some momentum rolling on this product.

 checkmark  Agreed

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 4):
Not really new news isn't?

I actually disagree, since ANA said that they wouldn't buy it unless they saw a good business case for it.

Quoting Columba (Reply 7):
No, they always said they will look at it and if they see the need for it they would buy it:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles....html

So apparantly, they do see a good case for it now, which is good news for the a380 program.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently onlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6457 posts, RR: 38
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12853 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 1):
Good for Airbus but I am afraid of the first A380 painted with pokemon cartoons......

A whale one or Snorlax?  biggrin 

Can you just imagine the sheer number of passengers they will squeeze onto that thing..



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12858 times:

FRA and LHR seem the most likely places to send it *if* they buy it - LH will be using theirs to NRT from FRA and I would imagine VS and BA will do likewise from LHR. If NH order it now, all three would probably get their A380s within a year of each other I suspect.

Nobody is going to cut flights, so I think this (if it happens) would be a very interesting experiment on what happens when you basically add about +/- 40% more seats onto a trunk citypair in a short space of time. Fares between LHR and NRT cannot come down much more than they are now and I think yields may suffer as a result. The A380 will not increase traffic on its own - the best way to increase growth and traffic on a route is to loosen pricing, which affects yields adversely. It may be that all concerned do not adjust pricing outside of current levels and there are no yield problems but this may not be possible if load factors drop significantly.

That being the case, it begs the question - if NH,BA, and VS all operate the A380 LHR-NRT and yields drop as pricing is adjusted to suit the extra capacity to make sure load factors do not drop, how will JL react? Tough one.

It is probably fair to say that the effects would be temporary and yields would probably increase over time, but if we assume that the extra capacity causes three months of sub-70% load factors and a drop in yields for all concerned, then how does the one carrier that uses the 77W instead react? 787-8 service to LHR for JL maybe?

Interesting.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/nipponbr/ANA_a380.jpg



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12773 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 10):
FRA and LHR seem the most likely places to send it *if* they buy it - LH will be using theirs to NRT from FRA and I would imagine VS and BA will do likewise from LHR. If NH order it now, all three would probably get their A380s within a year of each other I suspect.

They explicitely mentioned FRA and New York in the article above. FRA makes sense because it is a Star Alliance hub.
I can see plenty of other destination NH could send their A380s, too, if they order it.
Tokyo will be one of the airports that will see the most A380s even if JL and NH don´t order it but the airlines that have will definitely send theirs there.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 9):
Can you just imagine the sheer number of passengers they will squeeze onto that thing..

Not that much since its is not used on domestic routes.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12741 times:

Singapore Airlines' CEO said it very well only recently: the A380 is going to change aviation in Asia.

It is becoming increasingly clear the Superjumbo will completely re-shuffle the cards for all Asian airlines and those who don't operate it will quickly see their importance downgraded amongst all those Asian carriers which do operate it and can thus offer greater luxury to their premium customers, while at the same time offer unbeatable low prices to their economy class pax.

If ANA wants to maintain its status and safeguard its existence as an important long haul Asian airline, they better order some A380s soon and from all the comments it is clear it is no longer a question IF they will order the Superjumbo, but rather WHEN and HOW MANY.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12719 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 2):
I don't expect big numbers though...

Every operator that has A380s on order ( maybe but EK ) and gets the profits from them they expect will order more of them in 5 years . If they do not get the profits, they either sell them fast or die.


User currently onlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6457 posts, RR: 38
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12652 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 11):
Not that much since its is not used on domestic routes.

Whoops sorry my bad should have read it more thoroughly. It'll be interesting what they throw into the mix. Seeing they made the 739ER into a business class jet, surely they won't turn their A380s the same way..



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31436 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 12487 times:
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If NH bites, I expect it to be the A380. However, as CHRISBA77ER has noted, yields are going to suffer if too much capacity is added. NH and JL might have gone to 77Ws for their long-haul fleet to help secure their own loads at a level that generates profit, and let the others beat on each other with the A380.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 12):
It is becoming increasingly clear the Superjumbo will completely re-shuffle the cards for all Asian airlines and those who don't operate it will quickly see their importance downgraded amongst all those Asian carriers which do operate it and can thus offer greater luxury to their premium customers, while at the same time offer unbeatable low prices to their economy class pax.

SQ is offering nothing in Business Class they don't offer on the 77W except more seats and a reduced sense of ambiance because the deck looks like a cubical farm. R Class is indeed impressive, but it's the width of the A380 that allows things like the "queen-sized bed" option for the center seats. And SQ is charging a significant premium for it which they have to prove is sustainable. 9W has private suites on their 77Ws, too, and nothing is stopping EK from putting them in their 77Ws except choice because the A345 that has them is narrower.

And do airlines like SQ want to lose money in back and subsidize those fares with their premium cabin when they can "right-size" the route and make money on every seat? The A380 certainly has her place and will do well in that place, but I do not believe she is a "must-have". Chew has "bet his airline" in no small part on the A380, so he needs to talk it up as much as possible. If SIN is to remain relevant as a transit point between Europe and India/Oceania/South Asia/Australia in the face of the Middle East carriers, he needs to drive traffic, period, to SIN and the A380 is the best way to do that.

But that does not mean traffic within and around India/Oceania/North Asia/South Asia/Australia must be carried on an A380. That is it not carried now by 744s, but instead a mix of planes from A332s to 773s, seems to run counter to the idea that maximum per unit density is a requirement...


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3516 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 12374 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
yields are going to suffer if too much capacity is added

Yields will also suffer if they loose their premium passengers to SQ and others offering superior service on board their A380s.


User currently offlineAirbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4277 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12221 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 10):
FRA and LHR seem the most likely places to send it *if* they buy it - LH will be using theirs to NRT from FRA and I would imagine VS and BA will do likewise from LHR. If NH order it now, all three would probably get their A380s within a year of each other I suspect.

Nobody is going to cut flights, so I think this (if it happens) would be a very interesting experiment on what happens when you basically add about +/- 40% more seats onto a trunk citypair in a short space of time. Fares between LHR and NRT cannot come down much more than they are now and I think yields may suffer as a result. The A380 will not increase traffic on its own - the best way to increase growth and traffic on a route is to loosen pricing, which affects yields adversely. It may be that all concerned do not adjust pricing outside of current levels and there are no yield problems but this may not be possible if load factors drop significantly.

That being the case, it begs the question - if NH,BA, and VS all operate the A380 LHR-NRT and yields drop as pricing is adjusted to suit the extra capacity to make sure load factors do not drop, how will JL react? Tough one.

It is probably fair to say that the effects would be temporary and yields would probably increase over time, but if we assume that the extra capacity causes three months of sub-70% load factors and a drop in yields for all concerned, then how does the one carrier that uses the 77W instead react? 787-8 service to LHR for JL maybe?

NH will start service NRT-FRA twice daily on B787-8 when they are delivered, to meet passenger request for various options in departure and arrival times.

JL will go Japan-Europe also on 787's in the future, not on all routes as far as I can imagine. I'll bet LHR/AMS/FRA/CDG will get 787-8's to replace B777 services.

If NH (and VS and BA) will all send A380 between NRT-LHR, capacity will rise enormous, and those aircraft won't fill-up. I bet this will not happen. BA might do it, to replace their double 744-service now. JL won't go with any A380 on this route, because passenger demand to the UK is getting lower, one of the 2 NRT flights has been cut last year already (JL403/404). KIX flight might be axed too in the future (!).



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31436 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12001 times:
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Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
Yields will also suffer if they loose their premium passengers to SQ and others offering superior service on board their A380s.

Maybe, maybe not. The A380 has no more First seats and only 10 more Business seats then their 744s. So if the same number of people who currently fly F on the 744 fly R on the A388, SQ has no additional capacity to poach customers from NH. And they can, at best, poach 10 Business Class folks from NH - assuming those passengers jumped from NH to SQ for the same seat on the 77W...

And with the premium they are charging for those R suites, there is no guarantee that everyone who flies F now on the 744s will be flying F on the A380 when they replace the 744s. And if they do not, will SQ need to lower the price to get those customers back? And will those customers fly NH, which is a mighty nice F, if not as nice as SQ's R? Or will they seek out the SQ 77W fleet, which has a very nice F, as well?


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12598 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11669 times:

6-8 would do fine as a start. The thing is that once you have KE (ICN-NRT-LAX), SQ (SIN-NRT-LAX) and the likes of AF and LH coming in, plus other carriers from Asia and Australasia - TG, QF etc - how long can it be before JL gives way?

And others will follow - OZ, BR, possibly CI (but they've been reticent so far), CX, CA (which has just ruled it out) and so you have a new kind of domino theory in Asia ...


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11566 times:

I think they'll get them sooner or later, because their competitors do. Japanese carriers are not as related to the Japanese industry (which helps building Boeing planes) as they were some time ago. They are independent and can buy from whomever they want to buy planes. And in this case, Boeing does offer a plane that is smaller and won't have the same level of pax comfort.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31436 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11331 times:
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Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):
And in this case, Boeing does offer a plane that is smaller and won't have the same level of pax comfort.

Just because people keep saying this doesn't even remotely make it true.

Until someone comes up with a seat or suite that is 6.2m in width, it's going to fit inside a 747-8I.

And unless it is 5.87m wide, it's going to fit inside a 777.

And unless it is 5.75m wide, it's going to fit inside a 787.

You might as well say that the A330 and A340 cannot be as comfortable as a 777 because you can only put in three SQ Business Class seats abreast instead of four...  Yeah sure


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11251 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
Just because people keep saying this doesn't even remotely make it true.

Until someone comes up with a seat or suite that is 6.2m in width, it's going to fit inside a 747-8I.

And unless it is 5.87m wide, it's going to fit inside a 777.

And unless it is 5.75m wide, it's going to fit inside a 787.

Why don't you calculate the seat width people have in those planes, A380 and 747-8 10-abreast, 777 and 787 9-abreast.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
You might as well say that the A330 and A340 cannot be as comfortable as a 777 because you can only put in three SQ Business Class seats abreast instead of four... Yeah sure

The 777 can have a more spacious F class, see AF. However, A330 and A340 normally have 8-abreast in economy, the 777 has 9 or 10.


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6944 posts, RR: 77
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11155 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 12):
Singapore Airlines' CEO said it very well only recently: the A380 is going to change aviation in Asia.

What else do you expect him to say? Well, he could have said "it's made by good"...  Wink

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 12):
It is becoming increasingly clear the Superjumbo will completely re-shuffle the cards for all Asian airlines and those who don't operate it will quickly see their importance downgraded amongst all those Asian carriers which do operate it and can thus offer greater luxury to their premium customers, while at the same time offer unbeatable low prices to their economy class pax.

Yes, orders have been so increasingly massive over the past months and years that there can't be any other conclusion...  Yeah sure

As I have aid before - airlines can offer suites and lounge areas on B777s or A350s, too. The A380 may help to offer cheaper seats on certain routes for certain carriers - but the question is whether that advantage on a handful of routes (in ANA's case) is enough to add the type to the fleet. For numerous carriers it may make more economic sense to operate a standardized B777/A350 fleet which can be used more flexibly throughout the network.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):
I think they'll get them sooner or later, because their competitors do.

If it makes economic sense, yes. But not because of a "mine's bigger than yours or at least as big"-attitude.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):
And in this case, Boeing does offer a plane that is smaller and won't have the same level of pax comfort.

 Yeah sure


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6944 posts, RR: 77
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11040 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 22):
The 777 can have a more spacious F class, see AF. However, A330 and A340 normally have 8-abreast in economy, the 777 has 9 or 10.

Carriers usually focus on First and Business Class - not Economy class.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
25 Thorben : Not bigger. Better.
26 Mptpa : I agree. A plane size has nothing to do with comfort. All you need to consider is how many people are occupying given space. The folks in Y are not g
27 EI321 : I do recall the ANA CEO saying in an interview that their decision on the A380 would be related to whether or not their competitors have it. I was no
28 Glareskin : How do Boeing executives call this? A game changer! True or not true, I agree if people say pax won't even notice the difference between 777 or A340,
29 Thorben : I think there are more planes with all-economy than with all-business-and-first.
30 Stitch : I find the 777 to be the most comfortable plane in the sky, regardless of class of service I am in. Why? Because it feels "big" inside. I don't like t
31 Post contains images PlaneHunter : It's only better it can be filled with good yields and outweighs advantages of a standardized fleet of smaller aircraft... We are talking about premi
32 Post contains images Leskova : That goes quite a way to show how much personal perception is important: I find the perception that the B777 feels "big" inside to be close to unnoti
33 Thorben : Right usage of the tool raises the chances of success. Even they should care about their economy class. Besides, which A380 customer is not a premium
34 Centrair : As some have said, NH's CEO stated that they were not ruling it out but were not serious about it. That was a year or more ago. He stated this in an A
35 Post contains images OHLHD : Definitely surprising since NH has ruled out a A380 purchase until now but now Airbus can provide real data about the aircraft and can convince airlin
36 Alangirvan : Going back to the start of this thread, what do studies and preliminary discussions mean? Airlines are always happy to have visiting sales reps in for
37 Jacobin777 : ...even AA stated "we will be taking a look at the A350"....even though its a well known fact the probability of AA getting the A350 is rather small.
38 Aerokiwi : The airline stated in one of its annual reports that its future medium-term fleet would be based around the 737, 787 and 777. So it's not like it was
39 Asiaflyer : The same could be said if NH find the A380 to be the perfect match and still dont buy it. (Applies for AA and the A350 as well I think.)
40 Karan69 : What about SQ and TG, the former already said that it will operate it when its 4th aircraft comes online Karan
41 Post contains images PlaneHunter : That sounds like any carrier could operate the bird successfully IF the "usage is right"... What's maximum comfort on SIA's A380? C class and Y Class
42 Post contains images Leskova : Correct... but using a bigger tool does not. The tool needs to be the right size - and bigger is not always better. (oh boy... I can imagine what som
43 Centrair : I did those off the top of my head. I didn't have time to look up SQ and TG at the time. Here they are now. SQ makes sense. I wonder if they will go
44 Airbuseric : I would say CZ is a premium carrier when it comes to their longhaul product on the B777's.
45 Stitch : And for those Y class passengers who are willing to buy a fare high enough to make it "worth the effort to carry them", many airlines are moving to a
46 Ikramerica : Remember when Boeing said they were in talks with 20 carriers about the 748i? What's become of that. The statement from NH is about as non-committal a
47 Post contains images Stitch : They're taking 77Ws, A388s, or both, instead.
48 Slz396 : Don't be fooled by the lack of clear committal in this statement! This one is just to prepare 'the audience' for the upcoming U-turn the airline is a
49 Post contains images Bmacleod : Well I guess this rules out the 748I. It would've looked nice in NH colors. Hey if NH is backing from their firm "no" on the A380, future possibilitie
50 Ikramerica : What positive statement? It's completely neutral. We do talk to Airbus means that Airbus has solicited them. Is not a decision we arrive at quickly m
51 Slz396 : Yes, hence them now slowly starting to publicly make the U-turn... 8 to 10 firm, the rest options.... You don't have to believe it, you have the righ
52 Post contains images Scbriml : There are several very strong indications that NH has already done a deal with Airbus on A380s. Denial is not a river in Africa. It sounds to me as t
53 RayChuang : I think if ANA does order the A380-800, they'll use it only on these routes: NRT-LHR NRT-LAX (with a possible extension to GRU) NRT-JFK NRT-SIN This w
54 Carpethead : One thing to note: a jump from the 773ER to an NH int'l layout A388 will result in seat increase from 247 to approximately 400. Even with increased FC
55 Jacobin777 : .....why not? ...who's being fooled?
56 RedChili : Only time will tell... Do you care to share ny of those indications with us? Or, alternatively, it's a way of telling the shareholders that "we've be
57 Ikramerica : Exactly. I don't know why not? Further, the number 16 makes little sense to me. It's more than BA's initial order and SQ's, and both have/had larger
58 RedChili : BA's initial order was for 12+7, while SQ's order was for 10 firm + a few options (I cannot remember how many). Surely, 12+7 is more than 8+8!
59 Ikramerica : Sorry, but who said 8+8? People in this thread are saying they ALREADY ordered 16. And again, NH only has 12 744 international planes, so why would t
60 RedChili : Maybe I've misread the thread, or maybe you've done so. What I've seen is that some posters claim that NH is looking at 8-10 firm orders plus a simil
61 Post contains images Scbriml : Like all the best journalists, I can't reveal my sources. However, the track record of my source on these matters is incredibly good.
62 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...no disrespect but I've seen these comments one too many times on A.net...in other words..."I'll believe it when I see it"...
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