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DL Downsizing JFK->Europe  
User currently offlineHush-Kit From Germany, joined Sep 2000, 124 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 12235 times:

folks, what I don't get: DL starts downsizing "major " transatlantic services effective spring 2008 out of JFK, so DL106 (to FRA), DL118 (to CDG) and maybe more...AF,LH,SQ and other competing airlines operate largest equipment (747,777,330) on these routes. Does DL has to free 767 so urgently??? And: on which more profitable routes does DL operate these 767??? Or does DL have an over-capacity problem whith these former TWA, then previously AA owned 757 ??? Chris

66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 12217 times:

BRU too will see the daily JFK service downgraded from 763 to 752...

It might have to do with the open sky agreement between the EU and the US taking effect then and DL anticipating lower load factors from the opening of many new flights to JFK by airlines like BA, AF, and others from airports which they currently were banned from.


User currently offlineSxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12100 times:

The routes being downsized are largely dominated by other carriers and tend to have lower yields. DL is hoping that the reduced capacity and superior inflight experience can help it boost yields ex-JFK.

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12105 times:

You have lots of questions in your post.....let me try to answer them.

DL will be down-gauging certain transatlantic routes ex-JFK: JFK-AMS/BRU/FRA will operate with a 752 instead of a 763ER, JFK-EDI will operate with a 752 (replacing the ATL-EDI 763ER route), and some new routes (we know of ORY, AGP and LYS for example) will be launched with the 752.

As for the AMS, BRU and FRA services, this is why the 752 is being utilized:
-the 752 has the range for these services.
-DL had trouble filling the 763ERs on these routes, especially over the slower winter period, with high yielding pax....and filling the airplane with pax on bargain basement fares is really not an option in todays environment.
-the 752ER will allow DL to maintain daily service on these routes.
-DL flies to each of these cities from their mega hub in ATL (and in some cases from CVG as well); this means that a good portion of connecting pax are routed via ATL and the JFK service is a bit more O&D oriented meaning less seats are needed in the markets.

DL's plan is to open lots of longer (and hopefully more profitable) routes out of JFK and ATL to destinations where there is limited or no competition and/or where demand is exceeding supply; thus the 763ERs that will be displaced will open routes like JFK-DKR-CPT/NBO, JFK-TLV, JFK-AMM, etc (all routes that clearly cannot be flown by a 752).

DL is attempting to utilize its assets, its airplanes, more effectively: while the "downgrade"" of the AMS, BRU, FRA routes is a bit surprising at first glance, consider that:

AMS is solid KL/NW territory (SkyTeam partners).....and AMS is a difficult city as far as yields.

BRU has a lot of competition...its a lower demand destination and AA and CO (from EWR) also fly this route....CO does especially well with its service in and out of BRU due to very high premium demand.

FRA is a problematic due to the huge presence of STAR alliance carriers at that airport....LH+SQ are difficult to go against in this market (and I have heard that even SQ's loads on the daily JFK-FRA flight are not outstanding although yields are cargo loads are probably quite good). DL has had trouble with the FRA flight ever since its continuation to India was dropped in favor of nonstop service. CO is also a factor and it does OK with its EWR-FRA flights....lots of competition.

Finally, consider that the ex-TW/AA 752s will be one of the nicest airplanes in DL's fleet once the interiors receive their upgrades.....for example, new seats, PTVs in biz and coach (something that is not available on the 763ERs), new interior installations, etc. So is it really a downgrade?

This is all about flexibility and allocation of resources in a hope to increase revenue and profits.....the ex-TW/AA 752s give DL the opportunity to fly a smaller, most cost effective airplane on certain routes that are not stellar performers for the airline, and, in turn, frees up 763ERs to fly new routes that hopefully will be extremely successful. DL is doing the right thing here.

[Edited 2007-10-20 13:07:12]

[Edited 2007-10-20 13:08:52]

User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 11998 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
BRU has a lot of competition...its a lower demand destination and AA and CO (from EWR) also fly this route....CO does especially well with its service in and out of BRU due to very high premium demand.

CO does very well on EWR indeed, also thanks to their huge network and the large number of connecting pax they take on their flight.

AA has an extensive partnership with SN and also has no problem filling its 763, meaning it is very though for another American airline to successfully serve JFK from BRU as the market is well covered by SN/AA and CO.

DL could hold on thanks to offering a slightly better premium service, but recently 9W opened 2 daily BRU-NYC flights (1 JFK, 1 EWR), with 5th freedom rights on the transatlantic segment and the Indian airline definitely offers a superior product than DL ever can.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4049 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11708 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
This is all about flexibility and allocation of resources in a hope to increase revenue and profits.....the ex-TW/AA 752s give DL the opportunity to fly a smaller, most cost effective airplane on certain routes that are not stellar performers for the airline, and, in turn, frees up 763ERs to fly new routes that hopefully will be extremely successful. DL is doing the right thing here.

Probably the best answer to all of this. It will be interesting to see how all of this pans out after the USDOT meeting about JFK and its problems currently being discussed over in some other threads.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineXkorpyoh From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10655 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Finally, consider that the ex-TW/AA 752s will be one of the nicest airplanes in DL's fleet once the interiors receive their upgrades.....for example, new seats, PTVs in biz and coach (something that is not available on the 763ERs), new interior installations, etc. So is it really a downgrade?

I just flew on one of the "new" 727-200 (a), ex AA planes, and I was disapointed. (BWI-ATL-SFO FIRST CLASS)

What is new:
- new livery
- new blue leather seat covers
- winglets
- fake wood floor in bathroom

What is not good:
- No PTV in first or coah
- First class seats are the same old domestic first class seats, not the businesselite seats
- bathroom look wornout inside

The safety card said " 757-200 (Intl)", so I assume the will use it for transatlantic, but why they didn't add the PTV as speculated here and why not change the domestic first class seats to businesselite seats and add more space if they intend to charge full business class fares over the atlantic?


User currently offlineFloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2010 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10490 times:

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 6):
The safety card said " 757-200 (Intl)", so I assume the will use it for transatlantic, but why they didn't add the PTV as speculated here and why not change the domestic first class seats to businesselite seats and add more space if they intend to charge full business class fares over the atlantic?

That is still the plan. They're not done with those aircraft yet.



Good goes around!
User currently offline28thguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10368 times:

I'd also add that British Airways (and Virgin Atlantic, potentially) are planning to start competing on several of these routes in 2008, also using 757 aircraft. If DL had kept flying 767-300 aircraft without AVOD in coach, there would have been a disparity versus BA's product. So these flights (single-aisle aircraft, yet updated with AVOD) will be competitive with BA and Virgin.

User currently offlineJkj777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10306 times:

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 6):
just flew on one of the "new" 727-200 (a), ex AA planes, and I was disapointed. (BWI-ATL-SFO FIRST CLASS

Man, flying in a 727-200.....You must have had one heck of a ride in a time machine since it has been some years since those have been around. Were peanuts offered on the time travel flight? How much was your ticket? JK  Smile

I am sure this is not the final product for these birds. Soon enough, I am sure they will be up to date with the new product inside.


User currently offlineBeau222 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10249 times:

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 7):
I just flew on one of the "new" 727-200 (a), ex AA planes, and I was disapointed. (BWI-ATL-SFO FIRST CLASS)

You had me confused for a minute there.


User currently offlineB777ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 548 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10094 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
(we know of ORY, AGP and LYS for example) will be launched with the 752.

When was this announced? Link?


User currently offlineXkorpyoh From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9978 times:

Quoting Jkj777 (Reply 9):
Man, flying in a 727-200.....You must have had one heck of a ride in a time machine since it has been some years since those have been around. Were peanuts offered on the time travel flight? How much was your ticket? JK Smile

,,, i am referring to the official Delta designation for this particular sub-type of 757 (757-200 (a) ) ...

correction: 727-200 = 757-200 (a)

[Edited 2007-10-20 20:07:50]

[Edited 2007-10-20 20:12:12]

User currently offlineCoal From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2016 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9793 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
and I have heard that even SQ's loads on the daily JFK-FRA

Really? I've found it nearly impossible to get on this flight. What's more, it seems all SIN-USA flights are always packed to the brim.

One question that pops up: Once the 767s and 777s have the new BusinessElite seats, what will the BE product offering be on the 757s?

Cheers
Coal



Nxt Flts: VA SYD-CBR-SYD | VA SYD-OOL-SYD | JQ SYD-MEL | VA MEL-CBR-SYD | DL SYD-LAX-ATL-MIA | B6 FLL-DCA-BOS | DL BOS-L
User currently offlineAerohottie From Australia, joined Mar 2004, 799 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9737 times:

Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 2):
DL is hoping that the reduced capacity and superior inflight experience can help it boost yields ex-JFK.

If this is the strategy then DL better start planning on having a superior inflight experience, because they certainly don't have it now.



What?
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4766 posts, RR: 43
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9687 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):

As for the AMS, BRU and FRA services, this is why the 752 is being utilized:
-the 752 has the range for these services.
-DL had trouble filling the 763ERs on these routes, especially over the slower winter period, with high yielding pax....and filling the airplane with pax on bargain basement fares is really not an option in todays environment.
-the 752ER will allow DL to maintain daily service on these routes.

From your statement, I can conclude that DL makes a loss flying to AMS/BRU/FRA from JFK. Since it already has flights to AMS & FRA from ATL then it should stick to it than just un-necessarily adding flights from JFK just to play ball with other airlines. I would not send B 752s from JFK to AMS/BRU/FRA...its just not worth it I feel...I would rather see DL suspend flights from JFK to these 3 EU airports and allocate their B 752ERs to more profitable and less competitive routes.

idea :

Why not use the B 752ER on some medium density JFK-Latin America/Central America routes...AA uses their AB6s on some JFK-Central America routes and supposedly does well on them.


User currently offline747fan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1186 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9600 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
From your statement, I can conclude that DL makes a loss flying to AMS/BRU/FRA from JFK. Since it already has flights to AMS & FRA from ATL then it should stick to it than just un-necessarily adding flights from JFK just to play ball with other airlines.

How are their LGW flights doing? I know they still have 2X daily 763's on this, but I thought they were going to eventually add a third flight.
People are saying how this route is getting a downgrade by going from 763 to 752. Yes, its a capacity downgrade. But on the other token, its a product upgrade; you don't get PTV's in Y on the 763's and not only will the ex-AA 752's have those, but they'll be AVOD (once the planes are finished with the updates; a poster mentioned flying on one that didn't have the new PTV's or BizE seats installed). Plus, those 752's are absolutely eye candy with the new livery and the winglets.


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9439 times:

I wonder if some of these downgraded aircraft are going to be used for new expansion from LAX or to new destinations out of hte 752 reach?


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineHNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9387 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 17):
I wonder if some of these downgraded aircraft are going to be used for new expansion from LAX or to new destinations out of hte 752 reach?

My guess is that we'll see them in HNL before too long, replacing the west coast 763 and 764 flights.



Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
User currently offlineNewYorkCityBoi From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9098 times:

I wish DL kept their B767-200, so they can downgrade from 763 to 762, not a big jump down. I personally feel more confortable on a widebody on a longhaul regardless of how nice the seat is.

User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4894 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9076 times:
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Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):

DL will be down-gauging certain transatlantic routes ex-JFK: JFK-AMS/BRU/FRA will operate with a 752 instead of a 763ER,

AMS is not a sure thing yet...it was for a while downgraded to a 752 starting spring 2008 but then went back to being a 763ER. There was also talk that TXL would get a 752 but so far, all data loaded seems to indicate a 763ER for now.

The published 752 JFK-Europe flights at this point include:

JFK-SNN - already started
JFK-MAN - start Jan 2008
JFK-DUB - 2x weekly in winter but then back to a 763ER spring/summer (for now)
JFK-FRA - start Mar 2008
JFK-BRU - start Apr 2008
JFK-CDG - start May 2008
JFK-ORY - start June 2008
JFK-AGP - start June 2008
JFK-LYS - start July 2008

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 6):
I just flew on one of the "new" 727-200 (a), ex AA planes, and I was disapointed. (BWI-ATL-SFO FIRST CLASS)



Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 6):
but why they didn't add the PTV as speculated here and why not change the domestic first class seats to businesselite seats and add more space if they intend to charge full business class fares over the atlantic?

Those ex-AA 752s haven't undergone the full reconfiguration yet. The first one will get the PTV/international configuration modifications starting this December. Currently, these are only flying domestic runs and JFK-SNN (sold as all-coach) and are basically set up the same way as when they got them from AA (except for the leather seat covers).

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
9W opened 2 daily BRU-NYC flights (1 JFK, 1 EWR), with 5th freedom rights on the transatlantic segment and the Indian airline definitely offers a superior product than DL ever can.

As is usual with these things, a superior product will not necessarily get the business travelers to switch over. Many of these business customers (particularly US-based ones) have Frequent Flyer affiliation as well as corporate contracts pushing them towards using the US carriers (even if they don't offer 9W's luxuries). I am not just talking about DL here but also CO, AA, UA, US, etc. 9W lags on the FF side (for now) - not being part of any alliance or significant partnerships...while they may draw some high-yield traffic from those who fly strictly based on product, the number of people who do that are not that significant.


Quoting 747fan (Reply 16):
I know they still have 2X daily 763's on this, but I thought they were going to eventually add a third flight.

Now that DL will be flying JFK-LHR 2x daily (starting Mar 29, 08), they will reduce JFK-LGW to 1x daily for next spring/summer. Right now LGW still shows a 763ER but I won't be surprised if they switch it to a 752 later....


User currently offlineAbrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5088 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days ago) and read 8968 times:

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 6):
What is new:
- new livery
- new blue leather seat covers
- winglets
- fake wood floor in bathroom

What is not good:
- No PTV in first or coah
- First class seats are the same old domestic first class seats, not the businesselite seats
- bathroom look wornout inside

= Seriously, what is up with the fake hardwood bathroom floors in J class? They dont look that great and get super dirty. I have flown DL J 5 times the past month, and its been the case each time.

Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 14):
Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 2):
DL is hoping that the reduced capacity and superior inflight experience can help it boost yields ex-JFK.

If this is the strategy then DL better start planning on having a superior inflight experience, because they certainly don't have it now.

= I do not agree with this assessment. I have flown DL enough to say they are probably the best American product out there (for me), and far superior to many Euro legacies such as IB, OA, AZ, AF, etc.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 20):
As is usual with these things, a superior product will not necessarily get the business travelers to switch over. Many of these business customers (particularly US-based ones) have Frequent Flyer affiliation as well as corporate contracts pushing them towards using the US carriers (even if they don't offer 9W's luxuries). I am not just talking about DL here but also CO, AA, UA, US, etc. 9W lags on the FF side (for now) - not being part of any alliance or significant partnerships...while they may draw some high-yield traffic from those who fly strictly based on product, the number of people who do that are not that significant.

= Not necessarily true though. EK, and followed by EY and QR has shown that you dont need to be part of an alliance to generate traffic up front. 9W follows the same dymanics. Moreover, 9W has an excellent internationally award winning FFP with ties to several leading carriers. Finally, I think 9W with its F-suites is targetting super premium traffic and not those mid-managers like me enslaved by FFP loyalties.

Cheers,
A.

PS: I recently took 3 J class flights (TRs to follow) on DL's JFK-CDG and 95% of the cabin was non-rev each time. Not a good sign for sure ...



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7612 times:

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 6):
The safety card said " 757-200 (Intl)", so I assume the will use it for transatlantic, but why they didn't add the PTV as speculated here and why not change the domestic first class seats to businesselite seats and add more space if they intend to charge full business class fares over the atlantic?

As pointed out, DL has not yet installed the new interior features on the ex-TW/AA 752s.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
From your statement, I can conclude that DL makes a loss flying to AMS/BRU/FRA from JFK.

I dont know if that is a correct conclusion.......I really dont know if DL makes money on these routes; I do know that the loads factors with the 763ER on these flights was not great and tend to go out with many empty seats especially during the winter period.....thus, the 752 seems like a very good ideal for these services.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
I would not send B 752s from JFK to AMS/BRU/FRA...its just not worth it I feel...I would rather see DL suspend flights from JFK to these 3 EU airports and allocate their B 752ERs to more profitable and less competitive routes.



Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
Why not use the B 752ER on some medium density JFK-Latin America/Central America routes...AA uses their AB6s on some JFK-Central America routes and supposedly does well on them.

DL is adding flights from JFK to Central America to be operated by 752s and 738s.
For DL to maintain and grow its presence in the NYC area, and to attract and maintain business flyers and corporate contracts, its essential that DL offer service from JFK to key European destinations.....AMS/BRU/FRA are among those destinations.

Quoting HNL-Jack" class=quote target=_blank>HNL-Jack (Reply 18):
My guess is that we'll see them in HNL before too long, replacing the west coast 763 and 764 flights.

Unlikely, the ex-TW/AA 752s are being equipped with a BizElite international J class product which is not needed or required for services to Hawaii. These airplanes will primarily fly transatlantic international services, with the occasional domestic service for rotation and positioning purposes.

Quoting NewYorkCityBoi (Reply 19):
I wish DL kept their B767-200, so they can downgrade from 763 to 762, not a big jump down. I personally feel more confortable on a widebody on a longhaul regardless of how nice the seat is.

Widebody comfort? Ancient history.......and DL's 762s were non-ER models and not ETOPS airplanes, thus they did not and could not fly transatlantic services. Also, as you may know, the operating economics of the 752 is very different from that of the 762, the 752 is a much more cost effective airliner on the routes being discussed.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 20):
AMS is not a sure thing yet...it was for a while downgraded to a 752 starting spring 2008 but then went back to being a 763ER. There was also talk that TXL would get a 752 but so far, all data loaded seems to indicate a 763ER for now.

The online schedule for Summer 2008 is showing JFK-AMS with 752.......if that information is correct.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
DL could hold on thanks to offering a slightly better premium service, but recently 9W opened 2 daily BRU-NYC flights (1 JFK, 1 EWR), with 5th freedom rights on the transatlantic segment and the Indian airline definitely offers a superior product than DL ever can.

From what I have heard, Jet is (currently) boarding very few pax in BRU bound for the NYC area.....the traffic on the flights is overwhelmingly pax travelling between India and the US and return which obviously is Jet's focus; Jet pax do change airplanes in BRU, which of course is the intent of the mini-hub at BRU.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 21):
= Not necessarily true though. EK, and followed by EY and QR has shown that you dont need to be part of an alliance to generate traffic up front. 9W follows the same dymanics. Moreover, 9W has an excellent internationally award winning FFP with ties to several leading carriers. Finally, I think 9W with its F-suites is targetting super premium traffic and not those mid-managers like me enslaved by FFP loyalties.

Everyone is different and makes different choices.......but lots of the premium transatlantic traffic is controlled by corporate contracts and FF allegiance. Also consider that 9W, a great airline with a world class product, can only get you from BRU to EWR or JFK, the US carriers offer connection possibilities throughout the Americas. 9W is not boarding many US bound pax at BRU nor is that their mission.....9W is far more interested in moving pax between the US and India and allow easy connections at BRU. Of course, 9W will move some pax between BRU and the US, and the total number will grow especially as the number of flights/destinations increase but its probably not a major factor, example, EK's performance on the JFK-HAM sector has been anything but spectacular.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 20):
Now that DL will be flying JFK-LHR 2x daily (starting Mar 29, 08), they will reduce JFK-LGW to 1x daily for next spring/summer. Right now LGW still shows a 763ER but I won't be surprised if they switch it to a 752 later....

It will be intersting to watch how DL, and other carriers, handle their London flights after increased service to Heathrow begins.......will pax continue flying to LGW once LHR is on offer? And, AA's service to STN will also be interesting to watch.


User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4006 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7498 times:
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Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
As for the AMS, BRU and FRA services, this is why the 752 is being utilized:
-the 752 has the range for these services.
-DL had trouble filling the 763ERs on these routes, especially over the slower winter period, with high yielding pax....and filling the airplane with pax on bargain basement fares is really not an option in todays environment.
-the 752ER will allow DL to maintain daily service on these routes.
-DL flies to each of these cities from their mega hub in ATL (and in some cases from CVG as well); this means that a good portion of connecting pax are routed via ATL and the JFK service is a bit more O&D oriented meaning less seats are needed in the markets

Thanks for all the information, Dutchjet.
I want to know if there's a possibility DL will primarily use the 752s on certain routes i.e., JFK-CDG where their significant partner AF has the heavy hand on that route. What I'm getting at for example instead of running 75Ws everyday during the peak season, is there a possibility they'll also fly 763s when capacity dictates as such. Like MThFSu fly a 763 and on TuWSa use a 75W?

I'm still hopeful DL will come around and install PTVs in the main cabins of their 763s. It just doesn't make sense when their main domestic competitior to Europe, CO as well as UA have them installed.

LACA773


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4894 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7382 times:
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Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 21):
EK, and followed by EY and QR has shown that you dont need to be part of an alliance to generate traffic up front.

Yes, while EK is not part of an alliance, they did get involved in the loyalty/FF game early on by being a partner in multiple US carriers' FF programs - UA, CO, and DL, IIRC. They also codeshared with CO, for example, on some of the US-UK and UK-DXB routes. QR has also aligned itself to many Star Alliance carriers' FF programs...all these moves helped generate additional exposure to much of the business traveler market...

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 22):
The online schedule for Summer 2008 is showing JFK-AMS with 752.......if that information is correct.

Which online schedule are you looking at? Delta.com shows the 763ER for late June/early July; seatmaps show 763ER; various CRS also show the 767...


25 Dutchjet : No problem at all. DL has scheudled a 752 for its summer JFK-CDG service.......thats the only DL metal on the route while AF flies several large airp
26 Panamair : Part of the reason for the 752 on JFK-CDG I suspect is because of the split next summer of Paris traffic between JFK-CDG and JFK-ORY. The ORY flight w
27 Dutchjet : Very good point.
28 RJpieces : All this talk about downsizing these routes that have seen 767 service for years makes me wonder just how profitable Delta has been over the Atlantic
29 NYCAAer : I commend Delta for keeping the routes and creating a vast network out of JFK. A route can be profitable during certain months of the year, break eve
30 Dutchjet : I am sure that one of our Delta experts has more information than I do.......but do consider that DL has had a love/hate relationship with its JFK ga
31 FlyPNS1 : From JFK, not very. Since purchasing the PA routes, DL has struggled to make money at JFK particularly on routes with stiff competition. JFK was rout
32 Alitalia744 : The routes that are being right-sized are being done so to ensure long-term viability and profitability of said routes and a continued emphasis on JFK
33 WorldTraveler : The simple reason is that DL is virtually alone among US carriers in that it does not feel a need to dominate routes into its partner's hubs. NYC is f
34 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : ...long as you don't mind splashing-down a few hundred miles short of your destination Understandable, but also jumping the gun. There have been VAST
35 Panamair : Another way to look at markets like FRA, BRU, etc. is that these are generally mature markets already with not much additional growth opportunities (a
36 Panamair : Frankly, I don't think DL back in the '90s knew what to do with JFK and the 'scary' New Yorkers...they had a sense that they wanted a stronger Europe
37 777gk : CO operated 757s to Ireland from Day 1, and when MAN went back to 757 (after it was DC-10/777 for quite some time) service it was upgraded to 2x dail
38 STT757 : Big difference, DL replaces a single 767-300 flight with a single 757-200 (1 for 1). When CO replaces a widebody on a Trans-Atlantic route with a 757
39 Evan767 : Heathrow will operate as 2x 767-300. LGW will operate as 1x 767-300.
40 Ikramerica : Yep. This is the key. DL is opening more routes from JFK and ATL to the EU secondary cities, when they used to carry pax to the main airports like CD
41 DAL767400ER : Weird, I could have sworn that Delta was also using the 757s to free up 767s for routes that are of their 757's range as well, you know, like JFK-DKR
42 Post contains images L1011Lover : I'm aware of the fact that times have changed, operating environment has changed, that JFK lost it's role as THE US gateway airport... etc., etc., etc
43 OA412 : Funny I had that very same feeling. I guess I just dreamt about reading that press release where DL announced all those new routes. Funny that you co
44 STT757 : Here's how you are wrong; DL replaces a single 767-300 with a 757-200 (obvious big decrease in capacity). CO replaces a 767 or 777-200 with double da
45 ConcordeBoy : ...how do you come to that conclusion? As has been mentioned before, for nearly all Euro cities, New York is the only gateway through which CO is cap
46 David_itl : BA seem to be doing an adequate job filling a 767 on MAN-JFK (even if it's in the wrong configuration). They were doing the same when it was in the r
47 ScottB : Except that 20-25 years ago, JFK-FRA carried far more passengers who were connecting at one or both ends. These days, nearly 20 U.S. airports have da
48 Hush-Kit : First, thanks for all the detailed information...But I do have a diiferent point of view, many -especially biz- pax prefer wide-bodies to narrow-ones
49 DeltaL1011man : please read the above posts but dont forget DL did have a hub in FRA(which they got from PA) now they just fly to FRA from ATL,CVG and JFK
50 David_itl : Isn't DL17 BOM-JFK non-stop? That's a 777. Still hasn't stopped it coming into MAN on a few occasions due to headwinds...we've have 747s come into MA
51 Hush-Kit : You and I know, there were none...BUT (!!!) pax on these days did n o t have the choice, there were mainly only 2 jets which covered transocean fligh
52 L1011Lover : I'm aware of all the above stated facts... never denied any of them... and yes it all makes sense... still I find a single Boeing 757-200 flight on a
53 Post contains links and images UPSMD11 : DL did fly the 762 in Europe though. When they took down the 727-200 flights out of the FRA mini-hub they used A310 and B762 to fly within Europe. Vi
54 L1011Lover : That's not 100% correct. When DL took over PA's route authorities they also inherited their fleet of A310-200/300 and flew them alongside the 727-200
55 Dutchjet : We have had the 757 over-the-Atlantic discussion about a zillion times here at a.net.....in reality, most pax (not a.net members) dont care what kind
56 Incitatus : That's an odd statement. Every normal for-profit company wants to dominate every share of a market it can, no? If Delta could add 10 flights a day in
57 WorldTraveler : You also fail to remember that DL has two powerful transatlantic hubs 750 miles apart along the east coast. No other airline is in such a position. D
58 WorldTraveler : As for route domination, DL doesn't have to share revenue on flights it operates over CDG but it does on routings that involve a connection at CDG/
59 Caspritz78 : Flew with SQ the FRA-JFK lag. The load factor in economy class was between 80% and 90%. So there were enough empty seats. Maybe the FRA-SIN lag is be
60 Hush-Kit : absolutely, you are right. I agree that -especially biz pax - prefer nonstop flights. 757 only can fit that desire if origin and destination is withi
61 Dutchjet : With about 4000 miles in range....the 752 can handle routes between Western Europe and the Northeast United States: the airlines are clearly not assi
62 Hush-Kit : It's not that specific flight I was on, I have traveled the big pond about 25 times the last years, and it's of my personel prefence not to be on a 7
63 Dutchjet : Of course you are entitled to your point of view: You choose which airline you will fly with and you choose your particular flight......and if you pr
64 WorldTraveler : The bigger issue is that the 757 is capable of transatlantic flights, airlines need to be doing international expansion because that is where revenue
65 STT757 : Why do I get the feeling that if I dig deep enough into the A-net archives I'm going to find certain Deltoids who are now championing trans-Atlantic
66 Klwright69 : Yes, I remember a long time ago, it was often repeated that since CO used 757's on certain Transatlantic routes, they were clearly an inferior, ridicu
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