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EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB  
User currently offlineB7x7 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2007, 43 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11734 times:

According to FI, Emirate's is still not happy with either the 787-10 or the A350-900XWB

Tim wants more thrust from the 787-10

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...nes-a350-xwb-and-787-concerns.html

I can see this going on till Farnborough 08,

[Edited 2007-10-22 08:52:30]

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11650 times:

Quoting B7x7 (Thread starter):
I can see this going on till Farnborough 08,

I still think EK is talking smack about the products (787, 350, 748) so they have an excuse for not buying anything, because they have eyes bigger than their stomach. But if they admit they are actually now nervous about buying too many aircraft too soon, that would be a sign of weakness. So instead, they try to lay it all on the manufacturers. "We'd buy 120 more planes right now if only there were planes out there worth buying..."



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAlbird87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 11632 times:

Oh boo Hoo..... EK want this and that!! If they really want their aircraft to have all the features that they want, then they are gonna have to build it themselves!!
Honestly i have never heard soo much complaints before about these aircraft and whats going to happen is Boeing and Airbus are just going to turn around to EK and go 'this is what we have.... take it or leave it!!'


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10008 posts, RR: 96
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 11589 times:
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Quoting B7x7 (Thread starter):
According to FI, Emirate's is still not happy with either the 787-10 or the A350-900XWB

It would appear from the article that his primary concern about the A350 is "confidence".

I take his comments to indicate that he's fairly happy with the A350 specs in themselves. I couldn't see anywhere where he was asking for changes to he product as such.

Regards


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 11534 times:
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Quoting Astuteman (Reply 3):
I take his comments to indicate that he's fairly happy with the A350 specs in themselves. I couldn't see anywhere where he was asking for changes to he product as such.

Correct.

He likely feels the A350-900 is the right plane for EK, provided it meets the guarantees Airbus has claimed. However, it looks like that he doesn't want an A350-900 that cannot meet those claims, even if it means he gets a compensation check for each frame.

As for the 787-10, he wants it to do more then Boeing is currently offering (which is around 7800nm at this time), likely because he feels a bit more confident in the 787 because it will have a few years of in-service data under it's belt by 2013 which could be used to tweak the design, which would not be the case with A350-900s delivered at the same date.


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 11533 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
Quoting B7x7 (Thread starter):
I can see this going on till Farnborough 08,

I still think EK is talking smack about the products (787, 350, 748) so they have an excuse for not buying anything, because they have eyes bigger than their stomach. But if they admit they are actually now nervous about buying too many aircraft too soon, that would be a sign of weakness. So instead, they try to lay it all on the manufacturers. "We'd buy 120 more planes right now if only there were planes out there worth buying..."

LOL - are you serious?

Daftest post I've ever read on here.

EK know what they want and neither are giving it to them yet - they obviously dont want to be left behind and are one of the only airlines in the world with enough genuine buyer power to influence what is on offer in a meaningful way.

I suspect that if they order 100 or so 787-10s the arguments over their overcapacity and caustic observations about an impending bubble bursting in DXB would evaporate quite quickly.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1447 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 11496 times:

Then they should look into one of the Russian jets then! I am getting tired of EK's talk right now. Shut up or put up.  banghead 


If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11314 times:
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Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 5):
EK know what they want and neither are giving it to them yet - they obviously dont want to be left behind and are one of the only airlines in the world with enough genuine buyer power to influence what is on offer in a meaningful way.

 yes 

And since neither company can give them that within the next five years, even if they had it today (which they do not), they can afford to continue to wait and see who does (arguably, they have no choice but to wait)..


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11303 times:

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 2):
Honestly i have never heard soo much complaints before about these aircraft and whats going to happen is Boeing and Airbus are just going to turn around to EK and go 'this is what we have.... take it or leave it!!'



Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 6):
Then they should look into one of the Russian jets then! I am getting tired of EK's talk right now. Shut up or put up.

Are you people f'n crazy?

Emirates is going to be the world's largest operator of the two flagship products from BOTH manufacturers.

What they want should be FOREMOST on both Boeing and Airbus' minds.

This isn't the schoolyard. This is business. When given what they want, Emirates has "put up" to the tune of many, many billions of dollars.

NS


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11294 times:

It sounds as if EK is perfectly satisfied with the A350 as it is being presented to them now, but want some contractual guarantees on weight and performance issues from Airbus.

To me it definitely sounds as if EK and Airbus are in well-developed contractual negotiations, and that this is nothing more than Mr. Clark's way to put some extra pressure on Airbus to add the extra bit of guarantee he'd love to get from them, but they aren't willing to give (yet). It also echoes some remarks I've heard saying Airbus is very willing to sign EK, but not at whatever cost, because such a huge order for the A350 from a single customer will take a lot of slots on the production line which likely will have no problem being filled anyway...

I doubt Mr. Clark's strategy will work, since all he can pressure Airbus with is the treath to buy a plane which isn't launched (the 787-10), which lacks range and which doesn't have the right engine! Not really something to be scared off, in my view and Mr. Clark knows this, so he ultimately mentions that if non of the 2 options (if you can call Boeing's one an option) suits his needs, he might not order anything...

I think this is confirmation EK are closer to the A350 than they have ever been.


User currently offlinePhilzh From Switzerland, joined May 2007, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11030 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 9):
I think this is confirmation EK are closer to the A350 than they have ever been.

Well, it's not that long until Dubai Airshow 2007, is it...


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12432 posts, RR: 37
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10952 times:

I agree with Slz396's observation; from my reading of what TC said, it seems that he is leaning very much towards the A350; clearly, EK - and its owners, the Dubai govt - want a deal to be done at Dubai; after all, if there wasn't a chance of an EK deal down there, why would they go? The next two weeks or so will see EK push Airbus for all the guarantees it wants and it would surprise me greatly if the deal were not done at the show.

Boeing won't go home empty handed either; there will be a deal for 10 747-8s as well (as long as Boeing can provide range guarantees for DXB-LAX).


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10850 times:

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 2):
If they really want their aircraft to have all the features that they want, then they are gonna have to build it themselves!!

careful, ya might give 'em ideas.........

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 5):
I suspect that if they order 100 or so 787-10s the arguments over their overcapacity and caustic observations about an impending bubble bursting in DXB would evaporate quite quickly.

why?


User currently offlineAirplaneFan From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10800 times:

It just seems like Dubia has a crazy Ruler. He wants everything in Dubai to be the best, largest, tallest, biggest, etc. In this case he wants EK to become the largest airline in the world in every way, fleet, passengers carried, RPK's, FTK's, etc. and best airline in the world with the greatest flying experience. Dubai will just become the new capital of the world beating New York. See Dubai is going to have I don't know how many new skyscrapers, largest artificial islands, largest airport, largest seaport, etc. I wonder what the Dubai ruler will do tomorrow when the oil turns out to be extinct. Wink This also goes to the rest of the Middle East countries and cities, not just Dubai, UAE.


I AM ABLE THINK, THEREFORE I EXIST.
User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4953 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10727 times:

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 11):
Boeing won't go home empty handed either; there will be a deal for 10 747-8s as well (as long as Boeing can provide range guarantees for DXB-LAX).

What payload do you think that needs to be? Range is not an issue, it is payload over that range which has to be the issue unless hot day performance out of DXB is also an issue.
The preliminary load table suggests a payload of about 120000lb for a 7500nm ESAD sector. Is that enough or not?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10692 times:
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Quoting Slz396 (Reply 9):
I think this is confirmation EK are closer to the A350 than they have ever been.

I believe it is a given EK will fly the A350.

However, I also believe it is far from a given that EK will not fly the 787.


User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10670 times:

Quoting AirplaneFan (Reply 13):
I wonder what the Dubai ruler will do tomorrow when the oil turns out to be extinct.  This also goes to the rest of the Middle East countries and cities, not just Dubai, UAE.

Dubai's oil dried up a loooooong time ago. Dubai is now a very diversified economy, perhaps there are investments in Oil, I suspect there are, but when the oil runs out DXB will be no more screwed than Europe and the USA.

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10589 times:

Quoting AirplaneFan (Reply 13):
I wonder what the Dubai ruler will do tomorrow when the oil turns out to be extinct. 

Um, why do you think he's doing all this?

NS


User currently offlineAFGMEL From Australia, joined Jul 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10261 times:

Gawd, the amount of hegemony and willful ignorance astounds me sometimes. While I have only fairly recently joined Airliners, I have been lurking for a long time. Since the 90s from memory. Waaay back then, the same sort of stuff was being sprouted about EK and how they were going to go bust and how they didn't need this capacity etc etc etc.

Now almost 10 years later they are going gangbusters. The lack of oil was long forseen and to their enormous credit they did something about it. Just because airlines are not growing in double digit percentages in your neck of the woods does not mean that it's a world wide thing. Don't be so parochial.

Edit : More on topic, when you're that big, you can call the shots. Lots of airlines have done it in the past and notably, US airlines in particular have almost designed the damn thing.

[Edited 2007-10-22 15:59:39]


B 727-44/200 732/3/4/8/9 767-3 742/3/4, 772/3, A319/20/21 332/333 342/3 , DC3/4/10, F28/50/100, ATR72
User currently offlineUsair330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 822 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10182 times:

Emirates needs to stop thinking that they are the only airline in the world. I think it's time for them to either buy what both A and B have to offer, or like said on another post build there own aircraft.

User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10066 times:

Personally, I'm quite happy with the pressure Emirates is putting on Boeing and Airbus. It results in us, the flying public, flying in better planes. Without the pressure from the likes of Emirates and ILFC, we would never have seen as good an A350 as we're now going to get.

User currently offlineVega9000 From Portugal, joined Aug 2006, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10050 times:

Quoting Usair330 (Reply 19):
Emirates needs to stop thinking that they are the only airline in the world.

Dozens of VLAs! Hundreds of widebodies! I think they ARE the only airline in the world with this kind of fleet.

Quoting Usair330 (Reply 19):
I think it's time for them to either buy what both A and B have to offer

Of course! Now just go tell Boeing to be the first to tell them that. And hope Airbus follows their example. Because they have to learn, those damn cash-loaded costumers! Stop telling us what you need...  Yeah sure

Quoting AirplaneFan (Reply 13):
I wonder what the Dubai ruler will do tomorrow when the oil turns out to be extinct.

Well, He'll just do what Singapore did when the oil ran out there...no wait, they didn't had any, now did they? How in the world did they get so rich?  Wink



Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9831 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 20):
Personally, I'm quite happy with the pressure Emirates is putting on Boeing and Airbus. It results in us, the flying public, flying in better planes.

No, it results in Airbus and Boeing making planes more suitable for EK.

An 8000nm 787-10 is not a better plane than a 7500nm 787-10. It just has 500nm more range. But that added range might make it cost more to design and build, which costs everyone more money in the long run, even the airlines who only needed a 7500nm 787-10 in the first place.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9780 times:

This is a money trick by Emirates. Nothing like the word confidence to be used as a weapon against Airbus.

Who needs the order more will be the first to give in.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9656 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
No, it results in Airbus and Boeing making planes more suitable for EK.

And yet other airlines are not bum-rushing Boeing for the 787-10/787HGW and Airbus for the A350, so they must see something they like in EK's demands...

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 23):
Who needs the order more will be the first to give in.

They both need it pretty bad - Airbus needs the order to keep A350 momentum going and Boeing needs a big launch customer for the 787-10/787HGW to kick-start the program.

So I believe the A350 will likely win the first round due to "availability" with the 787-10/787HGW being picked up at a later date when it, too, becomes "available".


25 Post contains images 747fan : Its not just Emirates that is (or has been) this way. A few prime examples of this are United with the 777, Delta with the 757 (persuaded DL to offer
26 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ....funny, I thought Clark stated..... "“The air show is not far away, but if the things aren’t right then we won’t sign. The A350-900 XWB is n
27 SEPilot : I tend to agree with your sentiments. I have never heard of any organization in any field successfully expanding as fast as EK is proposing. Granted,
28 AFGMEL : You can say it and say it, but it doesn't make it so. I don't work for EK or anybody else for that matter. I do have a friend in DXB who does though a
29 WingedMigrator : You're smarter than that. It is indeed a better plane, because payload can be traded for range. The improved plane will carry more payload (and produ
30 AA7295 : It's just you. I'm Australian, and I agree with the "Americans" that Emirates will prevail in the long-term. (ie: decades) AA7295
31 AFGMEL : No, that I agree with. It's these comments that I am talking about.
32 Norcal773 : Why does Nationality always come up int this board? Shame indeed.
33 AFGMEL : Couldn't agree more.
34 BlueSky1976 : Yes, it is. ...and potentially greater cargo payload that this 500 more miles can be traded for, which would result in greater revenue on a 7500nm fl
35 Post contains links Scbriml : Hmm, I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. The oil company I work for started producing oil in Dubai back in the '60s and only this year sold
36 Gunsontheroof : Great. At the rate things are going, EK is going to give up on Airbus/Boeing, get into the business of building aircraft themselves, and a.netters ten
37 Qantas787 : For those of you who think that Dubai didn't have oil and still has doesn't have oil. Well I am sorry I can't think of anything else to say to match t
38 SEPilot : I don't know if it is because I'm an American or not, but I do have a problem with any organization trying to grow so fast. It has nothing to do with
39 Dayflyer : Is it possible to even make EK happy?? It's almost like they expect the entire aviation world to revolve around only them and their needs. When you bu
40 Bongodog1964 : I've read many that were far dafter. Why does EK feel the need to be so public regarding how the products offered to them fail to meet their requirem
41 RayChuang : In my humble opinion, EK should just order more 777-300ER's, since that plane already meets the needs of an airliner with decent seating capacity and
42 Post contains images StickShaker : The 772ER (and 772LR) are also good examples of the same concept. I doubt that we will see a 787-10 based on existing gross weights for the reasons o
43 Stitch : I believe they will at Dubai, since they have additional options. But they will eventually need to replace those planes, so I expect them to at least
44 Post contains images Astuteman : IMO the OEM's make EK extremely happy on a fairly regular basis. I suspect Clark's "posturing" is one of the prime reasons...... His actions will tel
45 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ....to make myself clear (I guess I was being a bit ambiguous) I should have stated GDP....from the link you provided above..... "Dubai GDP is divide
46 Ikramerica : The 772LR is heavier and more expensive than the 772ER. Again, making something a ULR plane or near-ULR does not make it "better" than a medium range
47 Qantas787 : My apologies Jacobin777 for my rather crude post from above. I had had a few drinks and made the mistake of posting on A-Net late at night. Yes you a
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