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A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?  
User currently offlineGilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3055 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14643 times:

This is a rumour, and want to clarify this from the start!

Was talking to a friend today who is cabin crew fro SilverJet, and she mentioned there has been a number of rumours going around the company from various sources that the company is interested in placing a brand new order for 767-200ER aircraft from Boeing...

Apparently the airline is becoming increasing concerned about sourcing "newer, quality and reliable" second hand 767-200 aircraft to aid future expansion once they have taken all four of ThomsonFly's aircraft. Also the current aircraft in the fleet are built around 1989 and coming previously from a charter airline these frames inevitably have a high cycle rate and don't intend to have in the fleet for anymore than five years.

Also the airline is concerned that there is no other suitable aircraft in the near future becoming available for them in the market place and keen to approach Boeing to order new aircraft before they cease production on the 767 line. Staff are talking of about 20-25 aircraft being ordered to replace the older fleet and aid future growth as they expand their destinations from London and Europe.

Read into it what you like, but sounds feasible... Im not sure how they would source funding for such a large order, as not sure many financial institutions would want to invest so much in a new airline!

[Edited 2007-10-22 15:04:01]

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDa man From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 887 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14642 times:

 crossfingers  More 767-200ERs would make me very happy.  cloudnine 


War Eagle!
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14574 times:

In a couple of years CO will be looking at retiring their 10 767-200ERs in favor or the 787-8, when exactly that happens is anyones guess but the 787 will replace CO's 767-200ERs at somepoint. CO's 767-200ERs are all new builds with 777 style interiors, the oldest being delivered new in 2000.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14462 times:

Are they the last 767-200ER's delivered? As for the roumer, highly highly unlikely.

User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14377 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):
In a couple of years CO will be looking at retiring their 10 767-200ERs in favor or the 787-8

...a "couple of years" can mean another decade and a half down the road. Those aircraft are essentially brand new, and there's not much market demand for used 762s, even those of CO-style specs.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 7201 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14283 times:

I'd be surprised if when the 787 starts being delivered that there won't be more good 767's available. They may want to order a few to tide them over but ordering 20-25 seems foolish. They will then have brand new airplanes that are more expensive to fly than their competitors when the 787 deliveries catch up with demand; that will be an undesirable place to be.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8776 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14255 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 4):
Those aircraft are essentially brand new, and there's not much market demand for used 762s, even those of CO-style specs.

On the other hand, the 788 is a much bigger and heavier aircraft.

The 762 can make more money in certain markets. There is no replacement for the 762.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8691 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14255 times:

Yes, CO's 762ER are all delivered. I presume they will be converted into Freighters.

I think this rumor is true as SilverJet is expanding and if they want new built a/c, they can get them as the 767 line is open.

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineERAUgrad02 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14178 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 7):
Yes, CO's 762ER are all delivered.

He asked if CO 767-200ER were last to be delivered.



Desmond MacRae in ILM
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8691 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14178 times:

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 8):

He asked if CO 767-200ER were last to be delivered.

I believe there were some after CO's.

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3783 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 14131 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):
In a couple of years CO will be looking at retiring their 10 767-200ERs in favor or the 787-8, when exactly that happens is anyones guess but the 787 will replace CO's 767-200ERs at somepoint. CO's 767-200ERs are all new builds with 777 style interiors, the oldest being delivered new in 2000.

That doesn't make much sense. Why would they get rid of what are essentially new airplanes? I don't see those 762s going anywhere for quite a while, 787s in fleet or not.



PHX based
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 14043 times:

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Im not sure how they would source funding for such a large order, as not sure many financial institutions would want to invest so much in a new airline!

And also in what is now considered an old aircraft design, and in 10-15 years time there will be even less of a market for used examples than there is now so the financial institutions could get badly burned on this especially if the airline went under, they would be left with brand new examples of a type nobody wants.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 13814 times:

Quoting 777STL (Reply 10):
That doesn't make much sense. Why would they get rid of what are essentially new airplanes? I don't see those 762s going anywhere for quite a while, 787s in fleet or not.

The CASMs of the 767-200ER don't work well with oil near $90 a barrel, the 787-8 offers more capacity, greater range, better fuel economy and a much lower CASM vs the 767-200ER which is why they will be replaced.

The 767-200ER in CO's configuration has roughly the same seating as CO's 757s, but with a much higher CASM.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 13751 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
The 767-200ER in CO's configuration has roughly the same seating as CO's 757s, but with a much higher CASM

...and much higher revenue potential, with almost 50% more J seating. I doubt CO will want to hang onto all of them too much longer, but I doubt they'll want to get rid of them all in one shot either. There are some routes that won't need the capacity of the 788 (which is even a bit bigger than the 764, if I am not mistaken) and demand the 762 for scheduling flexibility and proper capacity sizing.



There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 11892 times:

This is very curious and I wonder how Silverjet is arriving at numbers that can conclude that the 767-200ER can provide the kind of economics they need vs. the cost new? This is just one of the many questions I have about the "rumour" that was stated at the beginning of the post.

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 11):
And also in what is now considered an old aircraft design, and in 10-15 years time there will be even less of a market for used examples than there is now so the financial institutions could get badly burned on this especially if the airline went under, they would be left with brand new examples of a type nobody wants.

Granted, while this is an old aircraft design, many of the changes that have been made to the aircraft, especially those delivered to CO have brought the aircraft up to relatively modern standard. In 10-15 years time, there will be a lot of used 767s on the market (many having been retired as a result of age) and if there are any 10 year old 767s on the market, they will be scooped up in a heartbeat by the right airline with the right mix of passengers. Remember, the 787 is running behind now and we are five years away minimum from the A350, so the only aircraft that Boeing offers in this range is the 767 (The -300 is better than the -200 in unit costs in general terms). The 777 is much larger and is built for much longer missions. I believe the 767-300/400 will be around for a long time to come.

Where I do agree with your statement is in regard to the airline itself. For Silverjet to outright purchase 25 767-200ERs is a stretch for a new airline, especially one with an all Business Class passenger market. I am convinced that we will be headed into a recession sometime in late 2008 or early 2009 in the USA and business passengers will become cost conscious as they did in the early 90s. I don't know how well MaxJet is performing with their product, which is more of a "Premium Economy" product rather than a Business Class per se, but exclusive carriers that charge top dollar for their product, especially with large aircraft are going to suffer. Smaller carriers like Privatair will be fine, since those aircraft are small and have a different operating cost structure and strong management and will weather the storm. I am less certain about Silverjet and it is for that reason that I believe Silverjet will not get the funding to purchase the 767s, unless a leasing company does the purchase for them and looks long term at the used aircraft market.

The question for Boeing is can they retool the 767 (with the -400 wing, engines and avionics) if the 787 gets really far behind? The engineering answer is yes. The economic question is why would they want to?

Short answer, I don't see that happening. I believe the 787 will come out a little late and Boeing will deliver what they have promised with this airplane. As for the 767(-300), my guess is that the airplane will outlive Silverjet should things go south in the high end business market.

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineTitch From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 329 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 11838 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 3):
Are they the last 767-200ER's delivered?

Not quite. CO's last aircraft were delivered between November 2000 and October 2001.

If you discount the Italian/Japanese tanker conversions, there were two 762's delivered new after the Continental batch - one to the Kazakhstan Government in February 2002 (UN-B6701, c/n 32954) and one to Saudi Aramco in March 2003 (N767A, c/n 33685).


Cheers,
Titch



I'll make weapons out of my imperfections
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26815 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 11447 times:

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 14):
This is very curious and I wonder how Silverjet is arriving at numbers that can conclude that the 767-200ER can provide the kind of economics they need vs. the cost new?

In a higher density configuration, the 762ER is very competitive because of the exceptionally low trip costs, long range and excellent performance.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineCrosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2603 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 10680 times:
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Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Also the current aircraft in the fleet are built around 1989 and coming previously from a charter airline these frames inevitably have a high cycle rate and don't intend to have in the fleet for anymore than five years.

Silverjet's first 767 is on lease until 2012, the current and planned ex-Thomsonfly 767 fleet are on 10 year leases. So Silverjet are planning to keep these aircraft longer than 5 years. Plus because of their operational model these aircraft are not going to accumulate a lot of cycles with Flyjet with stage lengths of 6 hours +.

Personally I think they'd be more likely to operate used 757 or 767-300ERs or even order 787s in preference to new 767s.

The main barrier to a new order for 767-200ERs would be financing - the residulal values of those aircraft in 5 years are going to be awful having been eclipsed by the 787/A350 in terms of range and efficiency. Because of it's size the 767-200 isn't subject to the same kind of demand on the used market for either passenger or freight operations as it's larger sister.

Regards
CROSSWIND


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 10249 times:

I can imagine they will get an attractive offer - Boeing wants the line to remain open and not a large profit per plane. And I do not see any aircraft of similar size or weight at the horizon, so why not?

User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 796 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 9808 times:

It´s all about what stands on the bottom line of the bill.

Just take into consideration the following:
Boeing will for sure sell the 762 for a really good price (configured to the latest standard)
The 787 will be too big for Silverjet. So they wouldn´t be able to take full advantage of the cost savings the aircraft might provide. This eliminates any advantage over the 762 despite higher fuel burn/lower range.
Boeing is most certainly not going to sell the 787 to Silverjet at a bargain...
Until now nobody knows exactly which true savings the 787 will bring next to the fact that Boeing goes much more into "new terrain" with the composites than ever before.
So, nobody knows what happens if for some reason composites "fail". Imagine what would happen to the project...

I would expect the pro's and contra´s to be on a par finally. The slight advantage being on the side of the 762 simply because it´ll be availlable at relatively short notice plus the price tag will be significantly lower. I don´t see a major problem on the 2nd hand market later on for these a/c. It may be more of a problem for the "really old" and high cycle 762 then.



I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 9679 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 4):
...a "couple of years" can mean another decade and a half down the road. Those aircraft are essentially brand new, and there's not much market demand for used 762s, even those of CO-style specs.

CO has already had unsolicited offers for the 762ERs.........from cargo airlines; these very capable and young 762ERs will make excellent freighters.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 10):
That doesn't make much sense. Why would they get rid of what are essentially new airplanes? I don't see those 762s going anywhere for quite a while, 787s in fleet or not.

As mentioned, the 762ERs are not the most economical aircraft around on a per seat basis, the airplanes are not fuel hogs, but they are not as economical as, say, a (larger) 764ER or A332 on a per seat basis........that being said, CO has no immediate plans to dispose of the 762ERs even at $90/bbl oil (and the price of oil will hopefully regulate in the near term future). The 788 is a bigger airplane than the 762ER, and there really is no direct replacement for the type....look for CO to start phasing the 762ERs out of service when CO receives its 26th 787 airplane (approximately). CO has firm (announced) orders for 25 787s, which will be all about expansion, and then CO will move along top 762 replacement, provided, of course, that there is not a world event or huge financial downturn that would signifcantly effect air travel.

To make a long story short......I dont think that CO's 762ERs will end up with Silverjet.

Quoting MHG (Reply 19):
Just take into consideration the following:
Boeing will for sure sell the 762 for a really good price (configured to the latest standard)
The 787 will be too big for Silverjet. So they wouldn´t be able to take full advantage of the cost savings the aircraft might provide. This eliminates any advantage over the 762 despite higher fuel burn/lower range.
Boeing is most certainly not going to sell the 787 to Silverjet at a bargain...
Until now nobody knows exactly which true savings the 787 will bring next

All very valid points.....sharply priced new build 762ERs could be a very interesting proposition for an airline like Silverjet, its all about price and terms.


User currently offlineBRxxx From Taiwan, joined Aug 2007, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 9641 times:

I think they should just go for 763ER because 762 just burns off to much fuel!! Big grin


Flown on:A320,A332,A333,B737,B738,B763,B744,B77W,B773,E175,E190,MD90,MD11
User currently offlineJam747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 9396 times:

I think there was a topic before about a possible revised 767 based on the upgraded modifications done for the tanker version. It was discussed that if Boeing wins the the tanker deal for the airforce and the 767 line is kept open , passenger versions might be offered with some upgrades to airlines that cannot wait for the 787, or think the 787 is too large. On the other hand doing some upgrades might help keep the line open till the USAF make a decision. I cannot remember the exact topic on this matter .

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 9343 times:

Quoting BRxxx (Reply 21):
I think they should just go for 763ER because 762 just burns off to much fuel!!

The 763 burns more fuel than the 762. It only offers an advantage if the additional seats can be sold at a still reasonable price.


User currently offlineBRxxx From Taiwan, joined Aug 2007, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 9092 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 23):
The 763 burns more fuel than the 762. It only offers an advantage if the additional seats can be sold at a still reasonable price.



Thanks for correction! I didn't know much about that. Big grin



Flown on:A320,A332,A333,B737,B738,B763,B744,B77W,B773,E175,E190,MD90,MD11
25 Bobnwa : Then why did you make the statement that the 762 "just burns off too much fuel"? I don't understand.
26 BRxxx : Because I heard that some airlines want to dump 762s because they are not fuel efficient enough and are switching to other aircrafts. I think it was A
27 KC135TopBoom : That is a real possibility with the "do nothing but cause harm" 110th Congress we have today. They have screwed up everything they have put their han
28 EBJ1248650 : I'm sure Boeing would jump at the chance of selling new 767s so the price will be attractive.
29 Dutchjet : Keep in mind the following........ One statistic is total fuel burn for a particular flight.....in this case, the total fuel burn of a 762ER is gener
30 Readytotaxi : I would like to ask two questions about Business Class only flights Looking at the comments here do people consider SilverJet to be the market leader
31 KC135TopBoom : I believe that AA and US each still have some B-767-200ERs still in service, too. But, it would be good to see the B-767 line get some more orders, wh
32 YULWinterSkies : They of course do, such as AC. US does not operate the 763ER anyway. I firmly believe it (the 787) will achieve that milestone someday. One can say t
33 Brilondon : There is a huge used market why would they buy new?
34 BrianDromey : It certainly is an interesting discussion! There are a few factors favoring the deal; It would be an advantage o keep the 767 line open 'till the KC-7
35 Post contains images Gilesdavies : Reading through everyones comments so far, I am convinced more now than I was yesterday that the chances of SilverJet ordering some brand new 762ER me
36 Flighty : Certainly. A 762ER will also beat a 788 (which is 764-size) on fuel burn per flight. So, what is the cheapest way to carry 30 J class passengers and
37 Viscount724 : Also have to consider resale value. Demand for used 763ERs is no doubt much higher than for used 762ERs thus they will command a higher price which m
38 ERAUgrad02 : They'll get a bomb ass deal I can only imagine. Could they take the slots LAN had before swapping to 787's or are they still keeping those orders?
39 Burkhard : Maybe, but that does not mean that a small niche aircraft does not find a market in 10 years. The fact that a used 762ER is cheaper per flight than a
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