Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
The 787 And Heathrow Noise Limits  
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2150 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9783 times:

Is the 787 a quieter aircraft than the 767 or other widebodies, and if so will it allow more airlines to operate during the night curfew at LHR because more arriving flights will have the same noise level as fewer noisy aircraft?

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30618 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9773 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AF022 (Thread starter):
Is the 787 a quieter aircraft than the 767 or other widebodies, and if so will it allow more airlines to operate during the night curfew at LHR because more arriving flights will have the same noise level as fewer noisy aircraft?

The 787 will meet the most stringent noise standards, but even a "quiet" plane is still a nuisance at night, so the curfew likely will remain in force.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12394 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9311 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The LHR curfew is a complete one. It currently doesn't matter how quiet a plane is, the curfew still applies.

The only exceptions to the curfew are a limited number of late arrivals/departures caused by operational delays, and there is a strict allocation of those per airline. Emergency diversions would be the only other category of curfew buster that I am aware of.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineGeo772 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9222 times:

The 787 will be quite a bit quieter than otherwidebodies, and in fact many narrow bodies operating out of LHR. The noise curfew as has been said is for all arcraft movements (with the exception of emergencies). The airport effectively closes down at night although a runway is still kept available forr the unexpected.

Airlines have a quota of noise that they have to meet, how they use it is up to them. If they want to operate a 744 rated at QC2 they will use up 4 times more of their allocation than if they used an A380 at QC0.5. While this is not so important for operators who visit LHR, those airlines that are based there need to plan their fleets accordingly. Virgin and BA have got quieter aircraft on order for their longhaul fleet renewal which will give them a bit more flexibility in their operations.



Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6834 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8964 times:

Just out of curiosity, how does the 748 compare in noise emissions to the A380?


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12394 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8923 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 4):
Just out of curiosity, how does the 748 compare in noise emissions to the A380?

I can't remember the exact figures, but they were quoted in a recent thread about the 748i. If the search function is working you might be able to find it.

The A380 is quieter than the 748 - bigger engines and a significantly bigger wing help in that respect. I believe approach speed for the A380 is slower as well.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineSh0rtybr0wn From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8873 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 5):
The A380 is quieter than the 748 - bigger engines and a significantly bigger wing help in that respect. I believe approach speed for the A380 is slower as well.

748 GEnx will be quieter than engines on the A380. Newer technology, you know. Much less noise signature.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7991 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8812 times:

If I remember correctly, the 787 will be one of the quietest planes around because the engine nacelles use a "sawtooth" chevron exhaust nozzle, which dramatically reduces the noise level in addition to using engines with slower-turning front fans that generate much less noise to start with. As such, the plane easily meets the UK Civil Aviation Authority Quota Count 2 standard for noise emissions.

User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3875 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8774 times:

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 6):
748 GEnx will be quieter than engines on the A380. Newer technology, you know. Much less noise signature.

Not necessarily - the 747-8 GEnx variant features a smaller fan diameter than either the GEnx on the 787 or either engine type on the A380 and its this larger fan size that acts as the main noise reducer.


User currently offlineTeme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8764 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 6):
748 GEnx will be quieter than engines on the A380. Newer technology, you know. Much less noise signature.

That will remain to be seen. Since 748 is still in the drawing board we just have to wait and see. And I bet that RR and EA will continue to improve their engines too. So it will be interesting to see how things goes  Wink



Flying high and low
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2150 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8751 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 7):
If I remember correctly, the 787 will be one of the quietest planes around because the engine nacelles use a "sawtooth" chevron exhaust nozzle, which dramatically reduces the noise level in addition to using engines with slower-turning front fans that generate much less noise to start with. As such, the plane easily meets the UK Civil Aviation Authority Quota Count 2 standard for noise emissions.

Will this give any benefit for airlines looking for more landing slots at LHR? I mean if NH wants more NRT-LHR flights will BAA look kindlier upon them because of their quieter aircraft? Maybe open a very early slot?


User currently offlineZak From Greenland, joined Sep 2003, 1993 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8697 times:

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 6):
748 GEnx will be quieter than engines on the A380. Newer technology, you know. Much less noise signature.

certainly interesting claim, i will go ahead and say, unlikely, the a380 monsterwing gives it too much of an advantage in vref



10=2
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30618 posts, RR: 84
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8654 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The 747-8 will meet the noise requirements for QC 2 classification on both Arrivals and Departures, and also has a significant chance of achieving the next lower classification level (QC 1) for Arrival.

The A380 was expected to be QC 1 on Arrival, but has subsequently proved to be QC 0.5. I cannot find any info on her Departure QC, but it can be no more then QC 2, which is likely what it is.


User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8562 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2):
The LHR curfew is a complete one. It currently doesn't matter how quiet a plane is, the curfew still applies.

The only exceptions to the curfew are a limited number of late arrivals/departures caused by operational delays, and there is a strict allocation of those per airline. Emergency diversions would be the only other category of curfew buster that I am aware of.



Quoting AF022 (Thread starter):
will it allow more airlines to operate during the night curfew at LHR because more arriving flights will have the same noise level as fewer noisy aircraft?

Straight answer is no, the arrival of the B787 won't increase night flights.

The curfew is not a blanket ban. A number of flights per scheduling season are allowed to operate in the curfew hours. There are 2 limits to these - the QC quota and an absolute cap in the number of movements. When either is used up, no more night flights for the rest of the season.

The entire allowance is currently used up by/allocated to the early heavy arrivals from Asia and America from 0430-0600. There is nothing to be spared for any potential late night/early morning B787 flights. It is the movement limits being used up with some spare quota on the QC limit.

The current limits are as follows:
http://www.richmond.gov.uk/home/envi...or_night_flights_at_heathrow-5.htm



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12903 posts, RR: 100
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5465 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

787 compared to the 767 on noise (warning, pdf):
www.futureheathrow.org/PressReleases/150507/FH_on_Noise_May_2007.pdf

Quote:
The plane maker says its new 787 ‘Dreamliner’ will have a noise footprint around Heathrow 60 per cent smaller than previous comparable aircraft such as the 767-300,whilst its re-modeled 747-8 will deliver a 30 per cent reduction in noise compared to earlier 747 models.

For this discussion, please look at this pdf slide 19 and 20
www.aiaa.org/events/aners/Presentations/ANERS-Hawk.pdf


789 designed to be 60% quieter than the A343 (the aircraft it will send to the scrapyard):
www.v-flyer.com/pages.asp?click=196&pageid=196

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 5):

The A380 is quieter than the 748 - bigger engines and a significantly bigger wing help in that respect. I believe approach speed for the A380 is slower as well.



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 6):

748 GEnx will be quieter than engines on the A380. Newer technology, you know. Much less noise signature.

As others have noted, fan diameter matters more than technological generation. I expect the GP7200 to be quieter than the 105" diameter GEnX. That said, I expect the 112" GEnX or the 111" Trent 1000 to be the quietest engine in the sky.

For comparison:

Trent 900: 116" diameter
GP7200: 116" diameter

Based on the LHR noise points, the Trent is *just* enough quieter than the GP7200 on takeoff. Both are in the same noise class for landing. How? A shrouded turbine tends to make a little less noise than an un-shrouded. The difference is usually not worth talking about... It might also be due to the changes RR made to the nacelle (but I'm speculating. Informed speculation, but be aware I am not informed of enough details to speak with any authority).


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dmitriy Pichugin - Russian AviaPhoto Team



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dn280



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...ent_900_and_Engine_Alliance_GP7000

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAerokiwi From New Zealand, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 2683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5117 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):
As others have noted, fan diameter matters more than technological generation. I expect the GP7200 to be quieter than the 105" diameter GEnX. That said, I expect the 112" GEnX or the 111" Trent 1000 to be the quietest engine in the sky.

For comparison:

Trent 900: 116" diameter
GP7200: 116" diameter

Does that mean that the GE90 is the quietest engine in the sky and the 777 the quietest aircraft? Or is the wing-engine combo what makes the A380 so quiet?


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8873 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5066 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):
787 compared to the 767 on noise (warning, pdf):
www.futureheathrow.org/PressReleases/150507/FH_on_Noise_May_2007.pdf

In my view, that is basically based on false Boeing PR, until measurements are made, and noise certificate issued, take everything with a grain of salt.

Too many variables need to be sorted out with regard to configurations and speeds for the aircraft during flight testing.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):
For this discussion, please look at this pdf slide 19 and 20
www.aiaa.org/events/aners/Presentations/ANERS-Hawk.pdf

Boeing have embellished things a little there, the 787 is not that special on the noise front, the data they have presented with regard to the comparison aircraft is false. Please note that presentation is about the 788 not 789.

From real EASA TCDS noise certificate data http://www.easa.europa.eu/doc/Certif...e/odoc/TCDSN%20Jets%20(070831).xls

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a357/thezeke/noise/flyovernoise.png
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a357/thezeke/noise/lateralnoise.png
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a357/thezeke/noise/approachnoise.png

Personally, I don't believe for a second the approach noise levels listed for the 788 in that document, it will be closer to the A380.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):

789 designed to be 60% quieter than the A343 (the aircraft it will send to the scrapyard):
www.v-flyer.com/pages.asp?click=196&...d=196

I have not anything to suggest the VS A340s will be going to the scrapyard.

Secondly, the article does not claim the 789 is "60% quieter" than a A340, the article says "noise footprint of the 787-9 is also 60% lower than the A340-300", noise footprint refers to the amount of area covered by the 85 EPNdB contour, not 60% reduced noise produced by the engine.

I dont believe the numbers in the article, because the noise levels from the 789 will be higher than the 788 (more thrust/weight), and the 788 does not exhibit a 60% reduction over the A340.

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 15):

Does that mean that the GE90 is the quietest engine in the sky and the 777 the quietest aircraft? Or is the wing-engine combo what makes the A380 so quiet?

No, the GE90 and 777 are far from the quietest aircraft about, and yes, the powerplant and engine combination are important. A higher gross weight 744 will have a higher noise signature than a lighter 744, even if they have the same engines.

The quietest aircraft in the EASA database are as follows :

Lateral : Bombardier CL-600-2B19 with General Electric CF34-3A1 engines : 82.1 EPNdB
Flyover : Cessna 560 Citation Encore with Pratt & Whitney Canada PW 535A engines : 70.0 EPNdB
Approach : Cessna S550twith Pratt & Whitney JT15D-4B engines : 85.1 EPNdB



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5010 times:

Quoting AF022 (Reply 10):
Will this give any benefit for airlines looking for more landing slots at LHR? I mean if NH wants more NRT-LHR flights will BAA look kindlier upon them because of their quieter aircraft? Maybe open a very early slot?

The slots from early morning onwards are full so it doesn;t make a difference if an aircraft is quieter as you won't get it in anyway.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why Is There A Gap Between The 787-3 And 787-8? posted Tue Sep 19 2006 05:00:13 by JAM747
Why Is There A Gap Between The 787-3 And 787-8? posted Tue Sep 19 2006 05:00:13 by JAM747
What's The Diff Between The 787-3 And 787-8? posted Sun Sep 17 2006 04:48:06 by Remcor
What's The Diff Between The 787-3 And 787-8? posted Sun Sep 17 2006 04:48:06 by Remcor
The 787 And Top Secret Technology posted Mon Mar 13 2006 18:12:31 by Kaneporta1
The 787 And Top Secret Technology posted Mon Mar 13 2006 18:12:31 by Kaneporta1
When Exactly Is The 787 Rollout And First Flight? posted Mon Jun 18 2007 03:57:03 by Boeingluvr
When Exactly Is The 787 Rollout And First Flight? posted Mon Jun 18 2007 03:57:03 by Boeingluvr
Delta And The 787 posted Sat May 19 2007 00:38:00 by Mustang304
Delta And The 787 posted Sat May 19 2007 00:38:00 by Mustang304
Airports And Preparation For The 787/A350 posted Wed Mar 14 2007 23:58:37 by 1337Delta764
Airports And Preparation For The 787/A350 posted Wed Mar 14 2007 23:58:37 by 1337Delta764
When Exactly Is The 787 Rollout And First Flight? posted Mon Jun 18 2007 03:57:03 by Boeingluvr
Delta And The 787 posted Sat May 19 2007 00:38:00 by Mustang304
Airports And Preparation For The 787/A350 posted Wed Mar 14 2007 23:58:37 by 1337Delta764
LH And The 787-3 posted Sun Oct 22 2006 19:07:01 by 1337Delta764
Qantas And The 787 posted Tue Aug 29 2006 04:52:07 by Boston92
SK And The 787-8 Or 787-9 posted Fri May 26 2006 18:45:57 by EuroBonus
Air Tran And The 787 Dreamliner posted Tue Apr 18 2006 07:17:20 by Vulindlela744
Why Is There A Gap Between The 787-3 And 787-8? posted Tue Sep 19 2006 05:00:13 by JAM747
What's The Diff Between The 787-3 And 787-8? posted Sun Sep 17 2006 04:48:06 by Remcor
The 787 And Top Secret Technology posted Mon Mar 13 2006 18:12:31 by Kaneporta1
When Exactly Is The 787 Rollout And First Flight? posted Mon Jun 18 2007 03:57:03 by Boeingluvr
Delta And The 787 posted Sat May 19 2007 00:38:00 by Mustang304
Airports And Preparation For The 787/A350 posted Wed Mar 14 2007 23:58:37 by 1337Delta764
LH And The 787-3 posted Sun Oct 22 2006 19:07:01 by 1337Delta764
Qantas And The 787 posted Tue Aug 29 2006 04:52:07 by Boston92
SK And The 787-8 Or 787-9 posted Fri May 26 2006 18:45:57 by EuroBonus
Air Tran And The 787 Dreamliner posted Tue Apr 18 2006 07:17:20 by Vulindlela744
The 787 And Top Secret Technology posted Mon Mar 13 2006 18:12:31 by Kaneporta1
When Exactly Is The 787 Rollout And First Flight? posted Mon Jun 18 2007 03:57:03 by Boeingluvr
Delta And The 787 posted Sat May 19 2007 00:38:00 by Mustang304
Airports And Preparation For The 787/A350 posted Wed Mar 14 2007 23:58:37 by 1337Delta764
LH And The 787-3 posted Sun Oct 22 2006 19:07:01 by 1337Delta764
Qantas And The 787 posted Tue Aug 29 2006 04:52:07 by Boston92