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A Widerøe Captain Quits Due To "security Madnes "  
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3836 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 8434 times:

Enough security checks

At least one pilot in airline Widerøe ( Norwegian airline ) has opted for early retirement rather than continue to endure the security routines at Norwegian airports.

Tom Erik Liverud, head of Widerøe's pilot union confirmed this to newspaper Adresseavisen.

A captain chose to retire early primarily because of what he called "security madness".

"He is happy to be retired and finished with this. This is a marked contrast to some years ago when pilots were sad to give up their dream jobs when they passed 60," Liverud said.

Just a few days ago a Widerøe pilot delayed a departure from Namsos for refusing to take off his shoes in a security check, and reportedly screamed - 'I am no terrorist!'.

This problems is most acute on the short hop networks where pilots and other crew may have to go through security checks up to ten times a day, all year round, even if their exit and re-entry is due to a trip to the toilet or to get a cup of coffee.

"The security demands are all for show and in some situations are counterproductive. All a pilot needs to crash a plane is his hands. It feels meaningless to use so many millions of crowns without even carrying out a risk analysis," Liverud said.

The Norwegian Airline Pilots Association believes that flight crews should have separate arrangements, like customs officers and police, who are allowed to freely pass through airport security checks when on duty.


http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2063130.ece

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26848 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 8386 times:

Yes its indeed correct . I guess if a pilot wants to crash a plane he can and doesnt need to take anything else on board with him!!! There should be special express channels for pilots and they still need to be scanned but taking off shoes etc... is a bit much. They are security checked for ID anyway so the risk is alot less.

User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 8359 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
There should be special express channels for pilots

I thought they did. They have their own customs line, at least at YYZ.


AF340


User currently offlineCJAContinental From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 8344 times:

[quote=AF340,reply=2]I thought they did. They have their own customs line, at least at YYZ.[quote=AF340,reply=2]

I've seen it at IAH as well.

[Edited 2007-10-23 15:57:44]


Work Hard/Fly Right.
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13033 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 8302 times:

It's a shame he has made that decision.
There should be a 'secure ID' program for all cockpit and cabin flight crew in most countries for entry and exit to/from flights. In Norway, you have a national ID card that when read could give the secure status, no need for removing shoes, and other nonsense, although bags would still need to go through X-rays outbound and customs if needed inbound on international non EC routes. For the USA, they have proposed this for frequent flyers and could be easily copied over to cockpit and cabin crews too, as well as having all but the smallest airports have separate express lanes for outbound security for flight crews and airport employees.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 8245 times:

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 3):
[quote=AF340,reply=2]I thought they did. They have their own customs line, at least at YYZ.[/quote=AF340,reply=2]

I've seen it at IAH as well.

At large airports that's quite usual, however Widerøe operate to many small regional airports in Norway and Scandinavia where there is often only one customs line for the entire terminal. I can understand the frustration, if he was approaching retirement and free to go at any time, the extra irritating measures would have just tipped his decision.


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 8218 times:

Maybe we are better off to be rid of pilots with such short fuses that they scream at security personnel or retire early because they can't deal with the stresses of their jobs? Maybe these pilots would not be the best ones to have in command during an emergency. Just a thought...


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6385 posts, RR: 54
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 8201 times:

Namsos Airport in northern Norway is a very small place served by Widerøe with a Dash-8-100 twice a day from Trondheim, morning and late afternoon.

In 2005 the airport served 18,838 passengers, that's 51.6 passengers per day in average. FIFTY-ONE PASSENGERS !!!

There is no need for a fast security lane, but there is a terrible lack of common sense.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3836 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 8147 times:

This is only one of several cases in Norway lately, concerning this issue. Several pilots have voiced their opinions on this issue and how they feel criminalized, being searched several times a day at various airports in Norway.

User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 8123 times:

What if the pilot is commuting in his uniform to his flight? Then he does not have the power to crash the plane and should probably be subject to the same requirements as other passengers since he is riding in back.

User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7084 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 8123 times:

I feel for the pilot. Bottom line is flight crews can kill everyone on board withouth weapons or shoe bombs. I agree that all flight crew (Not so much cabin crew) should be allowed into the aircraft without or with little screening. As mentioned above, just like cops and security staff are. In fact, a cop or security staff member would be more likely to bring a weapon on to an aircraft that a pilot, as it is pointless for a pilot seeing as his hands can be deadly if decided upon

User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 8070 times:

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 9):
What if the pilot is commuting in his uniform to his flight? Then he does not have the power to crash the plane and should probably be subject to the same requirements as other passengers since he is riding in back.

Very good point, the crew lanes should require paperwork stating that he is working on the flight.

AF340


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 8033 times:

Quoting AF340 (Reply 11):
Very good point, the crew lanes should require paperwork stating that he is working on the flight.

Or just a digital confirmation. Scan your fingerprint, match it to the flight, move along?

That technology will work, but likely costs money so it's not quite there yet.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7084 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 8016 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):

I'm sure they can incorporate something into the airport ID. A magnetic chip or something... That might be cheaper


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 8014 times:

And BTW,

For all you pilots who feel "victimized" you need a reality check.

I have a good friend who's a VP at a major investment bank in NYC. Every day since 9/11, every single day, he must go through beefed up security to get into the building, which includes metal detectors and searching his bags and such. No shoe removal, but that's about the only difference than the airport.

And he's a million dollar employee who knows all the security people by name! It's a procedure, it's stupid, but it's just the way it is. Not one executive at that company has ever blown up a building or shot anyone at work, but they still treat them all "like criminals" (and not the white collar kind...  Wink )

But he's not going to quit over it or start yelling at people.

Here at the movie studios in Los Angeles, cars are routinely searched, even executives and famous actors/directors. They check for bombs underneath and look in your trunk. Again, you know most of the security people, and in this case, if they know you, they may not do it every single day, but you'll still be checked routinely. And not one studio has ever been bombed or hijacked...

I really feel that pilots consider themselves a special class of people sometimes, the way they talk about their mistreatment in all facets of their jobs as if the rest of the world is treated better and paid more. Where does this mentality come from?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7969 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
I have a good friend who's a VP at a major investment bank in NYC. Every day since 9/11, every single day, he must go through beefed up security to get into the building, which includes metal detectors and searching his bags and such. No shoe removal, but that's about the only difference than the airport.

But pilots can do that up to 10 times a day


AF340


User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7942 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
And BTW,

For all you pilots who feel "victimized" you need a reality check.

Pilots feel victimized because of the lack of common sense in the policies. Why should pilots be forced to go through a security screening, while other employees can use their airport ID to bypass security? (I won't go into details as to who can bypass security as that is somewhat sensitive information).



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2213 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7942 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 4):
In Norway, you have a national ID card

No, we don't.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
For all you pilots who feel "victimized" you need a reality check.

I have a good friend who's a VP at a major investment bank in NYC. Every day since 9/11, every single day, he must go through beefed up security to get into the building, which includes metal detectors and searching his bags and such. No shoe removal, but that's about the only difference than the airport.

And he's a million dollar employee who knows all the security people by name! It's a procedure, it's stupid, but it's just the way it is. Not one executive at that company has ever blown up a building or shot anyone at work, but they still treat them all "like criminals" (and not the white collar kind...   )

Does your friend have to go through security 10 times a day?

Is he strip-searched every time he needs to go to the bathroom?

Does he have to take off his shoes and belt in front of his employees every time he wants a cup of coffee?

Is he being harassed by security people who want to use their power impress upon him that they can dictate whatever he's going to do in the security check?

Also, there are many other facts that you should know about, such as: Many of the airports that this airline is flying to are small airports with very bad runways. The airport authorities cannot afford to upgrade the runways and make the airports safer. The reason? They're spending all their money on "security." One day, we could end up in a situation where two of these pilots will be killed because the authorities spend all their money on security, and none on safety.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineMestrugo From Chile, joined Apr 2007, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7850 times:

I read "A weirdøe captain...." on the title.  Smile

User currently offlineC680 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7833 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
It's a procedure, it's stupid, but it's just the way it is.

You seem to be defending the same procedures that you also acknowledge are stupid.

If the goal of terrorism is to have us all change our lives as a result of their actions, then allowing stupid security procedures is, in fact, a form of encouraging terrorism.

Perhaps the Norwegian pilot's point was that we should not accept these things as being "just the way it is."



My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7813 times:

In rural Norway there's no need to inspect pilots who emerge from small aircraft which they have obviously flown in.


However, in JFK and LHR it is clearly necessary to subject all crew to security checks. Pilots (there) can be of all races and appearances. There is no perfect way to separate real crews from Al Qaeda, so we must search everybody.

Otherwise it's like "Oh S*** that pilot just whipped out like 7 guns and is screaming Islamic slogans" etc etc. Pilots need to be searched to avoid that scenario.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7782 times:

I'm not defending the practices, I'm just appalled by the attitude of some of these pilots.

Then again, pilots and F/As and such have been found to be smuggling all sorts of contraband over the years, so the idea that all pilots are beyond reproach is not exactly supported by the facts, is it?

And of course there's nothing stopping a pilot from passing something to a passenger on a different plane who then uses it to bring down/hijack that plane, but I guess we can't consider that either?

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 13):
I'm sure they can incorporate something into the airport ID. A magnetic chip or something... That might be cheaper

But IDs can be swapped/modified. Hard to do that with a fingerprint. Yes, it can be done, but it's harder.

Quoting AF340 (Reply 15):
But pilots can do that up to 10 times a day

If you leave the building for any reason, you must do it again. Take a lunch meeting, back through security. Go out to dinner before returning to work until midnight? Back through security. Go outside for a smoke (smoking is illegal inside), back through security. Add that up for a smoker, it might be 10 times a day.

And there's even a bigger difference here. The entire building in question is owned and occupied by the company. At least at an airport, it's a third party check, where you have multiple companies and agencies who may not have 100% information on each other. Here, it's the guy's own company who does this every time he enters the building. They pay him close to a million bucks a year including bonuses, yet they make him do it each and every time just like the janitors and receptionists and one-time visitors.

He doesn't consider himself victimized. But he doesn't have an entitlement mentality.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 16):
Pilots feel victimized because of the lack of common sense in the policies.

To be a victim, you must be treated differently than everyone else and be harmed. Pilots are treated NO differently than anyone else nor are they harmed, but they expect to be treated differently or they claim harm? Why is that defensible?

Quoting RedChili (Reply 17):
Is he strip-searched every time he needs to go to the bathroom?

Pilots aren't either, so what's your point? Taking off your shoes is not being strip searched. When you are stripped searched, you'll know it...

And the bathroom thing is one absurd red-herring argument.

There aren't a lot of airports where the bathrooms are outside security (with none inside), and in those places, everyone has to do the same thing. But yes, if the bathrooms in his building were only operated in the lobby, then yes, he would have to I guess.

Quoting C680 (Reply 19):
You seem to be defending the same procedures that you also acknowledge are stupid.

No, I'm not actually. I'm saying the rules may be stupid, but pilots aren't being singled out so they should stop complaining as if they are. This is the overreactive environment we live in. And frankly, it makes more sense to screen pilots at an airport than it does to screen executives at a company owned building. Are pilots subjected to security at their corporate headquarters? (seriously, I have no idea. are they?)

I'm saying that pilots want different treatment than everyone else, and this is just one more case of pilots considering themselves to be above the rest of the working world, not subjected to the same market realities, believing their job is the most stressful, most important, they work the most hours, they have to go through the most to get to "the top." I read the union statements on these forums over the years, and the pilot comments about how mistreated they are, both working pilots and aspiring pilots, and it comes off as this expectation of privilege and entitlement to riches. It is such a common attitude among pilots, at least if the union leadership and the comments by pilots on a.net are anything to go by. Maybe they aren't, but I don't see a lot of pilots chiming in to oppose the union view or the view of the most militant pilots on a.net...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7688 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7724 times:
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Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
Pilots (there) can be of all races and appearances. There is no perfect way to separate real crews from Al Qaeda,

Ah yes, because I forgot, all terrorists have dark skin and carry a placard which says "I'm a terrorist". Genius. Or maybe you think that everyone in Norway is white and therefore not a terrorist??  Yeah sure

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
and reportedly screamed - 'I am no terrorist!'.

I was feeling mildly sympathetic towards the pilot right up until that point....



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAWombat From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7710 times:

Every exception provides an oppurtunity that can be exploited. Provide enough oppurtunities and they will be exploited. As time passes there are always calls to weaken security and if the responsible parties bow to the pressure we end up back at the 'Bad Old Days'.

This is the line and this is were we make our stand!  Smile


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3535 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7646 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
In rural Norway there's no need to inspect pilots who emerge from small aircraft which they have obviously flown in.


However, in JFK and LHR it is clearly necessary to subject all crew to security checks. Pilots (there) can be of all races and appearances. There is no perfect way to separate real crews from Al Qaeda, so we must search everybody

Surely the reason for the security is, that once passengers (or crew) enter the sterile area at even a rural airport as in this case, they can then disembark as transfer passengers, into a regional hub, and thus to an International airport without further security checks.


25 Post contains images ADXMatt : I feel for the pilot but he didn't need to throw a hissy fit. BTW in the USA crew members in Uniform do not have to take off their shoes unless they s
26 Someone83 : As mentioned by other, we do not have a national ID card in Norway The problem here is not the fact that the pilots has to go through security, but t
27 YULWinterSkies : Yes but AFAIK 9/11 did not happen in Northern Norway, neither involved citizens and politicians of Norway... He is rightfully upset and is right in t
28 DavidkunzVIE : Hats off to them.
29 2H4 : The problem is, the press and the general public A) don't realize this, and B) wouldn't accept it if they did. The industry has, for the most part, a
30 NwAflyer07 : Good point, which is exactly why the Boeing 797s and Airbus A360s will use computerized pilots who fly according to the exact instructions programmed
31 CptRegionalJet : All I can say is:Hats off to him!
32 DYflyer : Actually in many of the smaller airports here in Norway the bathrooms are outside the security zone (also the kiosks and cafeterias). So at these air
33 Max Q : 'ikraamerika' You seem to have a very large chip on your shoulder regarding airline pilots for some strange reason. Perhaps you wanted to be one and c
34 FlySSC : Some airlines, like Air France, don't allow their staff Pilots or F/A to wear their uniform whenever they commute or travel for personnal reasons. We
35 Sh0rtybr0wn : Its stupid to check a pilots shoes. They can push a switch and kill people quickly in the cockpit without the need of a bomb, and actually, driving th
36 Post contains images Legacy135 : I would not really think about quitting my job, just because of this securtity madness, I love aviation and flying to much. But I absolutely can follo
37 Post contains images ZKSUJ : A fire extinguisher to a persons head could do some damage as well I agree with the extensive security check annually for pilots, and just the x-ray
38 Prebennorholm : Some posts on this thread make us imagine that Namsos Airport is somewhat smaller than LHR or JFK. It is!!! Namsos Airport is one of several small str
39 Soon7x7 : I see the day when a suicide kook sticks a charge of dynamite up his rectum and for some unGodly reason, he's found out...can you image what we, the f
40 Bohlman : Pilots ARE treated differently, when you consider the bracket that they are in. Is it valid to compare them to passengers? No, of course not, you don
41 LongHauler : That's right, there is a crew Customs/Immigration line, not a crew security line. At YYZ, crew clear security in the same area and lines as passenger
42 Pacallen : Most airports do have employee/crew lines (at least in the US). If screened away from the pax, we can usually get by w/o taking off our shoes. Pilots
43 Sh0rtybr0wn : Why metal? What kind of metal? Steel toed pilot shoes? Or do you mean eyelets for laces.
44 Alias1024 : Did you not read what I wrote? They ARE treated differently than some other airport employees.
45 Alessandro : Contraband on a domestic flight? I have had my run in with security in Norway, have to bags one small and one bigger bag that are same otherwise,-can
46 PGNCS : When HAVEN'T you been appalled at ANYTHING pilots do?
47 Post contains images Legacy135 : Could not have summed it up better! You describe it exactly as it is! And what some people do not understand, if we as aircrew-members would intend t
48 Nzrich : I 100% agree all staff going into security areas at the airports should be screened .. I work for Air NZ and fly up and down the country we can go in
49 RedChili : They take nailclippers away, but once through security, most airports have restaurants with metal knives. Not to mention that most airports also sell
50 ZKSUJ : Thats why quite a few airprts now screen your bags right before you enter the aircraft at the gate lounge. And one would imagine especally with fligh
51 FBU 4EVER! : Today there's another report of a Widerøe captain having to strip practically to his underwear before being allowed access to his plane. When the pas
52 RedChili : In the EU, all bottles that are bought inside of the transit area are allowed on the airplane. It doesn't matter whether you're flying to the United
53 Sh0rtybr0wn : Compared to Americans , Norwegians are laid back and seriously chilled out. Why all the hassle for pilots? Is there that much of terrorism threat in
54 Doug_Or : Metal support in the sole of the arch. Most dress shoes had these (not sure if thats changed), but I finaly got a pair with fiberglass or something..
55 Pacallen : Most dress shoes typically have metal shanks (metal between the sole and insole against the arch).
56 Flying Belgian : The stupidity of a system. It reminds me a captain who replied to a UK security agent that he had a planes loaded with 20 tons of kerosene and three c
57 ZKSUJ : My mistake, apologies. There have been instances of people being forced to tip out their duty free before boarding though, but that would be from a s
58 Post contains images AMSGOT : I've been wondering with all these so called security measures: If liquids and sharp objects are forbidden in handluggage, than why can people still
59 RedChili : This does happen in the EU also. If you arrive on a flight from outside the EU, and you're transfering to an internal EU flight, they will confiscate
60 Post contains images Bohlman : Anything that doesn't contribute to the GDP of a country is dangerous to that country .
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