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UND Plane Missing  
User currently offlineWingnutMN From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 643 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15025 times:

Just heard on the local news, and found in the local paper. Any students have any info? Hoping for a great outcome!

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1505141.html

WingnutMN


Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
104 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWdleiser From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 961 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14956 times:

I hope all turns out well and safe.

User currently offlineMeister808 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 973 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14902 times:

The story is also available here:

http://www.grandforksherald.com/arti...es/index.cfm?id=54860§ion=homepage

and updates will be published as they are available at the Grand Forks Herald's site:

http://www.grandforksherald.com

I know the instructor well, my girlfriend has quite a few classes with the student, so, well, we're all praying, thats for sure.

As a matter of discussion, just to set the record straight, the 2006 Cessna accident (mentioned in the Star Tribune article above) in Crookston, MN was not in any way affiliated with UND, and one of the pilots on board that aircraft had recieved relatively little, if any, training from UND.

-Meister



Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
User currently offlineDCrawley From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 371 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14840 times:

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 2):

I know the instructor well

I do too. I have known Annette for the close to 20 years and she is a truly wonderful, one-of-a-kind person who can light up a room with her laugh. I live just a block away from her parents (whom are both wonderful people as well) and I am praying mightily that she is found and is alright.

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 2):
we're all praying, thats for sure.

 pray   pray   pray 



"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
User currently offlineJoness0154 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14794 times:

I'm thinking of them down here at Purdue and hoping all turns out well. As a fellow flight school student, I couldn't imagine how I would feel if something like that happened here, as we're pretty tight knit.

I've flown a cross country in a single engine a/c Chicago-Minneapolis-Northern Minnesota, and there wasn't much in the terms of towns or anything along my way once I got out of the Minneapolis area. I don't know how it is between St. Paul and Grand Forks, but I hope they're just hanging out by their plane in someones field, although night could make this a lot tougher  Sad

Could you UND guys/gals keep us updated please?



I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3128 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14767 times:

A friend of mine was preflighting his aircraft at the same time as them, they were on their way to st paul for the long cross-country lesson, which includes some engine-out maneuvers. hopefully all is well. winds were gusting to over 40mph in the area last night. apparently they stopped in st. paul to get some sushi.

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlinePhelpsie87 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14718 times:

My brother is another one was Annette's students. He was supposed to do this same flight tonight. Needless to say, it puts things in perspective. I hope both are ok.

User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 14644 times:

Wow.

Duke called me about 15 mins ago with the news, I don't think I know either of them (Still pushing through 222), Really puts things into perspective that even in a training environment like we have things can go wrong. Did they go no-fly today?

Thoughts and Prayers to those involved, especially Annette and Adam.


User currently offlineThepilot From Canada, joined Jan 2010, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14453 times:

I heard about this just this morning in class. The missing plane is a Seminole, as far as I know. I haven't heard any updates here, but I am going flying (stage check actually) in about 45 minutes. Hopefully everything is OK. Will post if I hear anything new.


From YVR
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21625 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 14257 times:

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 4):
I don't know how it is between St. Paul and Grand Forks, but I hope they're just hanging out by their plane in someones field, although night could make this a lot tougher

There isn't a lot out there, no. Plus side of that is if the plane is flyable, pretty much everywhere is a passable place to land in an emergency (except for the lakes). Minus side is that it could take a while to find them. Fortunately, it's not really winter yet, so even if they are stuck in a field overnight, they won't be stuck out in freezing weather.

Best wishes from ERAU.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 14151 times:

Seeing as how the guy was a junior, he had to have had his instrument rating and flying into Class B country, why didn't he file an IFR flight plan. Doesn't make sense to me, as I would have filed for the added safety.

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21625 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 14022 times:

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 10):
Seeing as how the guy was a junior, he had to have had his instrument rating and flying into Class B country, why didn't he file an IFR flight plan. Doesn't make sense to me, as I would have filed for the added safety.

Some lessons have to be done VFR. Plus, if you file IFR, you have to stick to your route. If maneuvers were required in the lesson as mentioned above, they couldn't be done under IFR.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 14001 times:

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 10):
Seeing as how the guy was a junior, he had to have had his instrument rating and flying into Class B country, why didn't he file an IFR flight plan. Doesn't make sense to me, as I would have filed for the added safety.

To answer your questions: No, he did not have his instrument rating. The way the commercial/instrument flight course at UND works there are 4 blocks of instrument training (2 of Basic Attitude Instrument Flying and 2 of IFR procedures), then one block of Commercial flight maneuvers, then the final block of multi-engine flying. At the completion of the flight course, you earn your Instrument and Multi-Engine ratings with a Commercial ASEL and AMEL ticket. The reason he didn't file an IFR flight plan is probably because the lesson he was on was a VFR cross-country. Since we're a FAR 141 program, we have to adhere to a strict Training Course Outline to meet certification standards, and if they had gone on an IFR flight plan, they couldn't complete the lesson as that wasn't prescribed for the lesson. Hope that clears things up.


User currently offlineBomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 13977 times:

Authorities are now saying they found a small plane in a swamp on the way back to Grand Forks, but they cant confirm if it's the UND plane. As a student in the Aviation Program here at UND I hope everything is ok.


http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1505141.html - same link as above, but it's been updated.

Peace  box 



AVIATION - A Vacation In Any Town, I Own Nothing
User currently offlineType-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 5033 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 13949 times:

I certainly do hope that they find them ok. If those high winds were headwinds then they could have had fuel issues.
Does UND teach multi-engine directly after the student obtains their private ticket?
I do think that this UND has far too many accidents for its size.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineJoness0154 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13891 times:

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 5):


A friend of mine was preflighting his aircraft at the same time as them, they were on their way to st paul for the long cross-country lesson, which includes some engine-out maneuvers. hopefully all is well. winds were gusting to over 40mph in the area last night. apparently they stopped in st. paul to get some sushi.

I sincerely hope that they weren't practicing engine-out maneuvers at night, it just adds more risk.

Again, best wishes to the student and instructor, hopefully they're hiking their way to the nearest town.



I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
User currently offlinePhelpsie87 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13846 times:

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 14):
Does UND teach multi-engine directly after the student obtains their private ticket?
I do think that this UND has far too many accidents for its size.

Too many?? Like 1 in the past 4 years...and that one was when the kid killed himself. If you are referring to the accident almost a year ago, while they had been UND students, they rented an aircraft outside UND and went flying without an instructor. IIRC, one of the kids recently soloed, and the other was a recent PPL. Also, UND does not teach muti right after private, in fact there is at least year between when you get your private and when you start your multi.


User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3128 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13742 times:

I take back my comment about the winds being high, i checked and it seems that they had died down by night time. Also,

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 15):
I sincerely hope that they weren't practicing engine-out maneuvers at night, it just adds more risk.

I am pretty sure every 325 student (this course) has to practice night single-engine operations. I know i did it why i flew on lesson 86 (the one these two were doing), down to sioux falls and watertown.

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13732 times:

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 14):
I do think that this UND has far too many accidents for its size.

Please justify how you reached this conclusion. As Phelpsie87 pointed out, there have been very few accidents in the past decade - the last one involving a UND student didn't even involve a UND aircraft.

Don't make extremely over broad statements about collegiate flight programs without backing them up - especially one as large and respected as UND (which has a large contingent of Fighting Sioux here on a-net).

Prepare for the flaming...



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21625 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 13711 times:

Quoting Phelpsie87 (Reply 16):
Like 1 in the past 4 years...and that one was when the kid killed himself. If you are referring to the accident almost a year ago, while they had been UND students, they rented an aircraft outside UND and went flying without an instructor. IIRC, one of the kids recently soloed, and the other was a recent PPL.

Even if we throw out the one from last year (which I don't think we should), that still leaves this one and one from a few years back when a student went on his 221 long solo and fell asleep at the controls, crashing into a field (he survived). That's two serious accidents within a span of four or five years. While it's not a horrific record, it's nothing to be proud of either.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineJoness0154 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 13641 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):

Even if we throw out the one from last year (which I don't think we should), that still leaves this one and one from a few years back when a student went on his 221 long solo and fell asleep at the controls, crashing into a field (he survived). That's two serious accidents within a span of four or five years. While it's not a horrific record, it's nothing to be proud of either.

-Mir

Add one more
This summer I wrote the factual accident report of a UND helicopter that was involved in an accident. Both of the pilots survived though.

Anyways, we should probably get back on topic and hope for the best for the two individuals involved.

[Edited 2007-10-24 17:53:52]


I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
User currently offlineDCrawley From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 371 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 13618 times:

Rest In Peace to Annette Klosterman and Adam Ostapenko. Annette, you are a wonderful person who will be missed very much. I will never forgot the time we spent together growing up, playing at the creek, playing in band in high school, and attending youth group together. I'll miss ya.

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=268140



"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
User currently offlineThepilot From Canada, joined Jan 2010, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 13601 times:

There was an announcement less than two hours ago that the wreckage was found and that both occupants were killed. The airport is closed tomorrow. I just knew Annette's face, didn't know either of them personally. I hold all those affected by this tragedy in my thoughts and prayers.

Will



From YVR
User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 13574 times:

Quoting DCrawley (Reply 21):
Rest In Peace to Annette Klosterman and Adam Ostapenko. Annette, you are a wonderful person who will be missed very much. I will never forgot the time we spent together growing up, playing at the creek, playing in band in high school, and attending youth group together. I'll miss ya.

This is very sad. As a former university aviation student, this is one of those "there but for the grace of God go I" situations. I got my Multi in a Seminole, probably like most students in programs like that across the country.



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineRiddle274 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 13535 times:

From all of us here at Daytona Beach Riddle, our deepest sympathies. We may be competitors at times but we all know that our collegiate aviation community is quite small. We will be thinking about you and if UND needs anything - you certainly know where to find us.

In memory . . . RIP


25 Joness0154 : God Bless the both of them. If it's any consolation, they were doing something that they both loved.[Edited 2007-10-24 18:17:11]
26 Post contains images Mir : Nothing you ever want to hear. My thoughts go out to their families, friends, and the larger UND community. Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of ear
27 Cbphoto : I second that from all of us at the Prescott ERAU campus. I know we have had our fair shares of tragedy, this summer being the most recent one. But i
28 Onetogo : Thoughts and deepest sympathy from those of us at Purdue. Terrible set of circumstances.
29 JewPilot : This comes as a shock since I plan on attending UND in the fall of '09. I find it interesting that they instructor decided to go up with the weather c
30 CBPhoto : As was noted the winds had died down in the evening, around the time the plane would have gone down. Doing maneuvers and all is not difficult to do i
31 Joness0154 : While it was gusty out, I have a hard time believing weather would have anything to do with this accident. Usually you find winds and gusts involved
32 Baron52ta : I would also like to add my sympathies to those listed, it is always a sad day when a fellow pilot is lost. I did my flight training in TN several yea
33 Luisca : This is really sad, As a flight instructor candidate and working in a training environment as a SOF it really put things into perspective. RIP from Fl
34 SirDeath : A quote in my heart to our friends, the lost aviators: "We will never forget them, nor the last time we saw them, this morning, as they prepared for t
35 Burnsie28 : Just found out that apparently a Pinnacle CRJ-200 reported HEAVY unexpected turbulance in the same place where they went down just shortly before.
36 Sluger020889 : Never something you want to hear about. Especially when I have a night cross country tomorrow night... From the flight program at Jacksonville Univers
37 Graphic : Today I was trying to get on an observation out at UND and when I signed the paper, my current instructor was the SOF, and FOX News was there with a n
38 Futurecaptain : I flew all my night xc's for my commercial license on an IFR flight plan. I made a VFR flight plan and navigated by visual aids mostly, but the added
39 Graphic : I know what you mean, I'm just saying that for this lesson its a VFR cross country, and you need to complete the lesson to move on. I have no further
40 ScrubbsYWG : condolences from winnipeg.
41 Mir : Is that the national FoxNews or just the local FOX affiliate? -Mir
42 MidEx216 : Oh wow, that's really sad. I have a friend who is flying at UND - it wasn't her, but I just talked to her about it. She said that she had just gotten
43 Acey559 : The college I go to is in the same NIFA region as UND, and we just had our regional competition a couple weeks ago up in St. Cloud, MN. Even if they'r
44 Post contains images Halcyon : What a sad event. My heart goes out to the friends and family of the two young people, and everyone at UND. Condolences from RMC all around. At least
45 TWA902fly : Around the time of their crash (sometime between 10:15pm and 11:00pm) it does not look like the weather was very awful. wind gusts of 17 knots should
46 FlyMKG : RIP from Western Michigan University.
47 Scrumpy492003 : As a former instructor, I / we all know that sometimes we can get into scary situations BUT must not let our students know it, because hopefully they
48 Avro7 : Sorry to hear about this tragedy. I suppose I'm out of touch with the state of the flight training but I have to ask- doesn't it seem having a 22- yea
49 Graphic : Probably the affiliate.
50 L-188 : As a former UND student, my best wishes goes out to the school down there.
51 Flybyguy : The plane was a twin? That explains a lot... especially on a night XC. If they were performing maneuvers a majority would be relatively high altitude
52 SNCntry32 : There has been talk about a lot of heavy turbulance in the are the past few days. I have heard some pilots talking about it and an NW Airbus having t
53 Post contains links Type-Rated : Here is how, right from UND itself! http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero21.htm http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero22.htm http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero51.
54 TWA902fly : well to tell you the truth i'd probably stand up for UND in this case. Most of the flight instructors here are from UNDs own program which prepares y
55 Saxman66 : True, no substitute for experience, but most UND instructors are in their 20's. I was. Don't forget there's lots of 22 year olds out there flying reg
56 WhoopWhoop : As a 89 UND Grad, my condolences to friends, family and the school.
57 TWA902fly : Just to clarify i didnt say an engine died, and to further go on that, i don't see why on this lesson during that portion of the flight they would ha
58 N6238P : God bless the victims and their families and friends. I have a few friends up at UND and I can't imagine the impact a tragedy like this would have on
59 SiouxATC : As another student here at UND I would like to say RIP to the two who parished. We all know that this could happen, and when it does it is really hard
60 Graphic : Actually it was the CRJ reporting the severe turb. Oye... People need to get the quote thing right.
61 YoungDon : RIP from the Aviation community at Hampton University, we always compete with UND at national flight competitions and hearing about this is very sad.
62 Luisca : Well with the state of the industry anybody that is 23 and still in the training field and not in the regionals either is continuing his education, W
63 Acey559 : It's been the same way around here. I took a flight home to MLI to pick up my instructor who had flown out to Vegas. It was fine at 5,000, but ORD ce
64 FLY2HMO : I heard about this really quick. The aviation community is really small, specially in the training environment. News good or bad is heard of really qu
65 Graphic : Well I went to my ground school today, our professor pretty much cancelled class and all we talked about was the crash. Flight operations are complete
66 NWAMSPFLYR : As a UND Grad of '03, it is sad indeed. I knew Annette through friends, and shared a few classes with her, may she rest in peace. "to fly west my frie
67 Saxman66 : " target=_blank>http://www.undnews.com/Aero/aero10.htm Check your sources again. This is NOT from UND itself. This site was made by a disgruntled stud
68 TWA902fly : Just for the record that wasnt posted by me...
69 MSNYX : If I'm not mistaken, UND is the largest flight school in the world. UND logs 110,000 hours per year, while ERAU logs 107,000 hours with their campuse
70 Tb727 : RIP from an Eastern Michigan University Alumni. My thoughts and prayers are with your friends and families.
71 Post contains links WingnutMN : I guess the plane was found submerged in about 10 feet of swamp. They are going to use a UH60 Blackhawk from the MN National Guard to lift it out of t
72 Joness0154 : Well, salvage operations vary depending on the terrain, available resources, etc. This sounds like the type of terrain that wouldn't support land-bas
73 Wdleiser : Hey man I goto ERAU too and we have had plenty of accidents too for our size.
74 Mir : Yeah, we've had some hard landing accidents and that sort of thing, but I don't think we've had any hull losses for a while. -Mir
75 ILCFII : RIP Annette and Adam As a former UND instructor I was hired with Annette and can attest to her being a good pilot. She was very smart and always had s
76 Meister808 : Guys, thanks for the support. We certainly appreciate it in Grand Forks, it's been a long week. Anyone in the area that is interested, there will be a
77 Bond007 : Well, 2 ways of looking at this. First, most of my instructors were in their early 20's and very professional, and one was in his late 40's. All of t
78 Joness0154 : Game.Set.Match.
79 1MillionFlyer : Totally an insult to professional pilots everywhere and if you think a 23 yr old with 500 hours is going to be a better instructor on real world flyi
80 Graphic : I went on one of my cross countries today, I guess my flight instructor was a very good friend of Annette. I can't speak for her, but I tried to put i
81 CBPhoto : And thats the one thing about pilots. 99.9% of pilots love flying and fly for the love of. They dont fly for money, or the glamor, or the fame, they
82 PlanesNTrains : I think we all tend to believe it's better to die doing something you love than not. I'm a big train guy, and I enjoy trainchasing/trainwatching when
83 Graphic : Any UND guys here go to the memorial?
84 FlyboySMF2GFK : Hi all, sad times indeed. Much respect to the fallen aviators and their families from a UND aviation grad. From everything I've read in the news I'm g
85 Mir : Does UND have detectors in its airplanes? -Mir
86 Luisca : The Seminole has a Janitrol heater which is a lot less susceptible to CO escaping than a regular heater. It is way to early and I have not seen any i
87 Mir : Well, speaking of taking tragedies and insulting others, how about you coming to the conclusion that UND instructors aren't competent based off of an
88 Thepilot : Yeah, the service was at the Chester Fritz auditorium. Tomorrow, there is a smaller memorial service in Duluth for Adam. This is exactly what my init
89 Mir : I would get them in there even if it doesn't turn out to be the cause. They don't cost much, so there's no reason to fly without them. If it were me
90 Type-Rated : Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 79): Totally an insult to professional pilots everywhere and if you think a 23 yr old with 500 hours is going to be a bet
91 Luisca : That is not nearly enough to keep a pilot from developing bad habits. You cant fail a BFR, by law all it is is one hour of flight and one of ground w
92 TWA902fly : Just to respond to this, and i hate speculating because we may never know the real cause, but the ELT didnt go off, which personally leads me to beli
93 Bahadir : I have no intentions of moving to anything 'better' or 'bigger'. Does that make me a worse CFI? I have been instructing for 7 years and i feel like i
94 Bahadir : So, what you are saying there needs to be a lot of oversights in order to make the pilots better? Remember, there is a huge world of GA aviation worl
95 Bahadir : Luisca, i am one of those guys.. Come to seattle and i will give you training for free.. Let's see what you know.. I am serious..
96 Bahadir : Do they teach you how reliable the ELT is in UND? Cause as a small FBO flight instructor I was told by an old guy that those are not reliable.. 'Unle
97 Flyboysmf2gfk : Interesting read, but way off-base. You're right that the heater is independent from the engine exhaust, however it is a combustion engine in and of
98 Onetogo : This arguing and bickering is completely senseless and uncalled for. If any of you are so compelled to argue about variations in training style (which
99 Mir : You can't fail a BFR per se, but you do need to get an endorsement in your logbook that certifies that the CFI believes you are competent to continue
100 Graphic : Ahh. I couldn't make the service at the Fritz because I was working in Wilke at the time so I was just curious. There's also been speculation that bl
101 Post contains images Mir : I talk to myself a lot on solo flights, and I'd hate to think that it might end up on a CVR tape. -Mir
102 Post contains images Joness0154 : ELT's suck. They're almost pointless. Last summer I probably saw 100+ accident reports from pilots of various sorts. Maybe half of them, if that, had
103 Type-Rated : Even though this was a tragedy that I wish never would have happened. I am glad to hear that the memorial service had a up beat mood to it. That real
104 KSUpilot : Always sad to read of accidents, even worse when it is a student. They are on our minds today here at KSU.
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