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TAP To Increase BSB To 6 Weekly On Feb 2008.  
User currently offlineCopacabana From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

TAP's Vice President, Luiz da Gama Mór, just annouce that an 6th frequency will bw add to its Brasilia service, starting on Feb 12th. He said that TAP has been operating with very good results out BSB, closing September 07 with an average load of 80%. TAP's hopes are that the new CNF flight, set to begin on Feb 11th 2008, will perform as good as BSB.

On the other hand, the vice president also demonstrated his concerns over TAP's NE operations, which will have an increased offer of 40 % with the replacement of the A310s with new A332s. He pointed out that FOR is the city with the greatest increase in touristic traffic. On the contrary, NAT service is indicated to be worst one and is already giving TAP second thoughts. TAP has been pressuring local authorities to enhance the promotion of Natal & Rio Grande do Norte state in Europe.

Source: Panrotas web site (only portuguese)
www.panrotas.com.br

[Edited 2007-10-25 13:05:04]

[Edited 2007-10-25 13:05:23]

[Edited 2007-10-25 13:06:16]

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCopacabana From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3108 times:

Another side note: Iberia is due to start an weekly service between MAD & SSA in the end of November/ beginning of Dec, operated as an code-share with Iberworld. Iberworld will be using an A330-300 with 309 economy seats.

User currently offlineTiago701 From Portugal, joined Jun 2006, 171 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3090 times:

Good news. Congrats to TP and BSB.

Quoting Copacabana (Thread starter):
On the other hand, the vice president alsorndemonstrated his concerns over TAP's NE operations, which will have anrnincreased offer of 40 % with the replacement of the A310s with newrnA332s. He pointed out that FOR is the city with the greatest increasernin touristic traffic. On the contrary, NAT service is indicated to bernworst one and is already giving TAP second thoughts.

That is actually a real challenge for some NE routes, hence why i think that maybe the B787 could be a better fit to TP's network than the A350.

I do think that NAT could be downgraded to A319 (if range issues are not a problem) and SLZ / BEL further considered to be opened and operated with this type of aircraft. Passengers' capacity would make sense but i don't know if these routes' cargo potential could eventually justify a bigger aircraft even having a lower passenger load factor.

Could TP's A319 in their current configuration do it?


User currently offlineCopacabana From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3057 times:

Quoting Tiago701 (Reply 2):
Could TP's A319 in their current configuration do it?

Could AF's 319ER do it? If yes, TP could order some for destinations that don't handle big aircrafts such as the 310 & 332.

NAT, MCZ, SLZ, BEL & MAO come to mind.


User currently offlineTiago701 From Portugal, joined Jun 2006, 171 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3045 times:

An A319ER has the range to do it for sure but i was wondering about the current A319 in TP's fleet.

Quoting Copacabana (Reply 3):
destinations that don't handle big aircrafts such as the 310 & 332.

Especially after 2008 when the A310 will not be part of TP's fleet anymore.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3021 times:

Quoting Copacabana (Thread starter):
He said that TAP has been operating with very good results out BSB, closing September 07 with an average load of 80%.

So much for all predictions of failure on this route that were made here  Smile

Quoting Copacabana (Thread starter):
TAP has been pressuring local authorities to enhance the promotion of Natal & Rio Grande do Norte state in Europe.

Marketing alone isn't enough. TP must start offering better connections to Europe, and above all, LIS airport must get their act together and stop losing bags and causing delays.


User currently offlineTiago701 From Portugal, joined Jun 2006, 171 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2985 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 5):

So much for all predictions of failure on this route that were made here Smile

Exactly. But thank God predictions are inaccurate most of the times  Smile I always believed this route would work and i personally think it can do even better and go daily soon.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 5):
TP must start offering better connections to Europe, and above all, LIS airport must get their act together and stop losing bags and causing delays.

That's a fact but NAT always performed poorer than all other NE routes and if results aren't what TP expects, especially if there are other routes showing greater potential there is nothing wrong in downgrading or canceling the route, hence why i think that maybe (if technically possible) an A319 could be a good option and even go daily.


User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2985 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 5):
Marketing alone isn't enough. TP must start offering better connections to Europe, and above all, LIS airport must get their act together and stop losing bags and causing delays.

The problem with Natal is that the city has limited demand during off season periods. Compared with Fortaleza, Recife & Salvador, Natal is much smaller. Also TP faces competition from many charter flights (Air Italy, Livingstone, BRA, Arkefly, Fly Brazil, Novair & White Airlines and others).

Those factors are probabaly why TAP never managed to make NAT a daily flight. Although Rio Grande do Norte state, of which Natal is capital, has many beautiful beaches & resorts, traffic is very low yielding, with few business passengers.


User currently offlineKrist0f From Belgium, joined May 2005, 38 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 2890 times:

Quoting Tiago701 (Reply 6):
Marketing alone isn't enough. TP must start offering better connections to Europe, and above all, LIS airport must get their act together and stop losing bags and causing delays.

I agree with the better connections statement. I'm located between BRU and LUX so as some flights leave very early in the morning from LIS to Brazil, it's sometimes necessary to fly into LIS the night before in order to make it to the flight. But with the TP 6:25 flight leaving BRU for LIS some of those problems are solved, but I can imagine cities being a bit more east or west of BRU having a very difficult time time connecting in LIS.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 7):
The problem with Natal is that the city has limited demand during off season periods. Compared with Fortaleza, Recife & Salvador, Natal is much smaller.

I'm happy to see though that there's non-stop connections between Europe and more Brazilian (smaller) cities. It's always a mess flying through GRU or GIG! I fly to CWB, POA and FLN multiple times a year and from BRU it's a nightmare because I always need to do 2 connections at a minimum. It would be nice to see the TP expansion continue to the southern region of Brazil (i.e. POA or CWB).

I had a little off topic question, I'll be flying TP in C class to SSA in April, I believe it's an A332 equip. Can anyone tell me whether this is the new business class as I see on the TP website they're marketing the "new business class" only on the A310's and A340's and not talking about the A330's?

Cheers,

Kris


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 15 hours ago) and read 2802 times:

Quoting Krist0f (Reply 8):
Can anyone tell me whether this is the new business class as I see on the TP website they're marketing the "new business class" only on the A310's and A340's and not talking about the A330's?

I think that's because the A332's already have the new business class so only the 310's and 340's need upgrading. But I could be wrong. Having said that, I didn't think TP was upgrading the 310's. It makes no sense since they will be gone next year.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4007 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 15 hours ago) and read 2776 times:

Possibly TAP can combine NAT and REC. REC is the next to last performing route between Lisbon and Brazil.

User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

If NAT is under TP's A319 max-range, then fly A319 there TP.
However, I think SLZ and BEL might be out of their A319 range and SLZ is still pretty much touristic-ally "underdeveloped" than NAT, but surely an interesting future TP destination.

If BSB has performed well, CNF mostlikely will too.. hopefully TP should start checking CWB, if the same flight model used for Northeast Brazil (plus BSB, CNF) can work overthere too.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4007 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 7 hours ago) and read 2643 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 11):
If BSB has performed well, CNF mostlikely will too.. hopefully TP should start checking CWB, if the same flight model used for Northeast Brazil (plus BSB, CNF) can work overthere too.

Curitiba has a slight problem.
Compare CNF's runway 9843 ft long at 2715ft altitude to CWB's main runway at 7267 ft at 2989 ft altitude.

I am not very familiar with the A330 performance but a 767-300 would only be able to fly some 3000 miles from CWB taking off full of passengers (no cargo). A 777 would go further to about 3800 miles. The A330 should fall somewhere in between. It will barely make it to Dakar.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 2608 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 10):
Possibly TAP can combine NAT and REC. REC is the next to last performing route between Lisbon and Brazil.



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
If BSB has performed well, CNF mostlikely will too.. hopefully TP should start checking CWB, if the same flight model used for Northeast Brazil (plus BSB, CNF) can work overthere too.

Congratulations for TAP. I also agree that CNF will perform well, and my guess is that CNF will perform stronger than BSB because of its corporate traffic.

As for NAT, indeed it is TAP poorest performing route in Brazil, followed by REC. I dont think combining both legs will be cost efficient. NAT is very close to REC, so I personally think that perhaps the best would be to consolidate the flights operating only LIS-REC. Lets hope that traffic to NAT improves and therefore this decision is avoided.

Rgs,


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 2597 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Very nice news, and TP already requested ANAC the 7th weekly frequency !

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 5):
So much for all predictions of failure on this route that were made here

Not from my self.. i always put my words and comments as positive for this flight.  Smile

Quoting Tiago701 (Reply 6):
Exactly. But thank God predictions are inaccurate most of the times I always believed this route would work and i personally think it can do even better and go daily soon.

And one fact TP said is that they got the commitment from Brazilian Ministry of External Affairs that Brazilian Diplomatics would use this flight... and it's a big market considering several embassies, and the Government pays Full Fare on Y or C.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 7):
The problem with Natal is that the city has limited demand during off season periods. Compared with Fortaleza, Recife & Salvador, Natal is much smaller. Also TP faces competition from many charter flights (Air Italy, Livingstone, BRA, Arkefly, Fly Brazil, Novair & White Airlines and others).

Agree 100% and there's a lack of business there. Market is very limited and also, FOR / REC run all business as well as they have good sea ports, stronger airports, better business market and more population. NAT probably is one of the 3 most leisure's capitals in Northeast, together with THE and SLZ. Even oil production, the 3rd largest in Brazil is not a focus of business.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 7):
Those factors are probably why TAP never managed to make NAT a daily flight. Although Rio Grande do Norte state, of which Natal is capital, has many beautiful beaches & resorts, traffic is very low yielding, with few business passengers.

If they could use an A319ER, could be daily as demand is closer to 100 pax / day, year round basis.

Quoting Krist0f (Reply 8):
I'm happy to see though that there's non-stop connections between Europe and more Brazilian (smaller) cities. It's always a mess flying through GRU or GIG! I fly to CWB, POA and FLN multiple times a year and from BRU it's a nightmare because I always need to do 2 connections at a minimum. It would be nice to see the TP expansion continue to the southern region of Brazil (i.e. POA or CWB).

POA should be a market for TP after MAO. I believe you will see a LIS-POA service in 2008/2009 but subject to runway improvements in Porto Alegre (too short nowadays).

CWB is almost impossible because also of runway size and considering the higher cost to increase it.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 13):
As for NAT, indeed it is TAP poorest performing route in Brazil, followed by REC. I dont think combining both legs will be cost efficient. NAT is very close to REC, so I personally think that perhaps the best would be to consolidate the flights operating only LIS-REC. Lets hope that traffic to NAT improves and therefore this decision is avoided

Hardi, one thing to consider is that fares on NAT-LIS are so high or even higher as they charge the same for NAT they charge for GIG or GRU, flights almost 3 hours longer. But there is a problem in fact considering they will terminate their A310 fleet and the A332 is too big for NAT. May be a possible NAT-MCZ flight in order to consolidate both markets, or even a model like:

LIS-NAT-SSA-LIS - 1 day of the week
LIS-NAT-REC-LIS - 1 day of the week
LIS-NAT-FOR-LIS - 1 day of the week
LIS-NAT-BSB-LIS - 1 day of the week

All 4 possible additional legs (destinations) means another flight (means that they can also upgrades some key markets) for the city (SSA to 8 from 7)

Considering NAT is closer, these legs are feasible for crew restrictions as well.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 2582 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):
Hardi, one thing to consider is that fares on NAT-LIS are so high or even higher as they charge the same for NAT they charge for GIG or GRU, flights almost 3 hours longer. But there is a problem in fact considering they will terminate their A310 fleet and the A332 is too big for NAT. May be a possible NAT-MCZ flight in order to consolidate both markets, or even a model like:

Your point is indeed correct Lipe. One small obervation: GRU and GIG count on market scale, which means TAP can charge lower fares for these markets. In addition, GRU and GIG also have higher yields (C class). Both factors more than compensate the lower fares applied in NAT.

I dont want to sound pessimistic, but it seems it will be difficult to keep NAT in TAP's network.

Needless to note, FOR is the stronger performer after GRU and GIG.

Rgs,


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2485 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):
If they could use an A319ER, could be daily as demand is closer to 100 pax / day, year round basis.

I think an A319 on a TATL flight would be pushing the limits of narrowbody flying a little too far  Smile When you put on the heavier long-haul business class seats, heavier galley, and load all the heavy luggage that people tend to carry on these routes, how much would there be left for cargo? Not much I'd assume. TP transports a huge amount of cargo between Brazil and Portugal and I suspect that NAT is no different. The question is not whether the A319 can do the route with 100 pax. The question is whether it can carry the load. I don't have that answer but I suspect it may not. The same argument applies to cities in the US Northeast.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2470 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 15):
Your point is indeed correct Lipe. One small obervation: GRU and GIG count on market scale, which means TAP can charge lower fares for these markets. In addition, GRU and GIG also have higher yields (C class). Both factors more than compensate the lower fares applied in NAT.

Agree 100% with your comment.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 15):
I dont want to sound pessimistic, but it seems it will be difficult to keep NAT in TAP's network.

Considering a fleet with A332 with 266 seats as entry level for long-haul, agree 100% unless they add another destination to the flight.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 16):
TP transports a huge amount of cargo between Brazil and Portugal and I suspect that NAT is no different. The question is not whether the A319 can do the route with 100 pax. The question is whether it can carry the load. I don't have that answer but I suspect it may not. The same argument applies to cities in the US Northeast.

Air Bazar, i don't think cargo is an issue at NAT. Could be for FOR, REC and SSA. But i don't have the answer for the A319 also. May be some of our frieds with stronger knowledge about the A319 may help us !

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 16):
I think an A319 on a TATL flight would be pushing the limits of narrowbody flying a little too far

For example, AC operates YYZ to CCS nonstop with the A319. But NAT-LIS has an additional 1h30min of flight duration, so it seems you are pushing to the limit the feasibility of the flight.

It seems NAT is really in the limbo, especially if compared to better performing routes in NE Brazil. The problem of NAT, as compared to other destination in NE Brazil, is that it generates fewer Brazilian-based traffic considering NAT is much smaller than the population and business encompassed in REC, FOR, and SSA. With the current strenght of the Brazilian currency (Real), Brazilian-based generated traffic has become crucial for the operationability of the flight, which is something NAT lacks. On average, TAP flight in NAT has higher loads of European-based pax.

Rgs,


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