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SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s Part 2  
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12341 posts, RR: 18
Posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 19196 times:
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Following on from the first thread SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s! (by CEO@AFG Oct 28 2007 in Civil Aviation). SAS has announced that its fleet of 29 Q400s has been grounded and will be dispossed off.

Wonder how this will affect NZs future Dash 8 Q fleet, since their ATR72 fleet will be replaced from 2009

217 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17149 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 19171 times:

Quoting 777ER (Thread starter):
Wonder how this will affect NZs future Dash 8 Q fleet,

Dont think it will not affect them, if it doesn't happens anything more now when SAS has taken away their Q400s. But if it will continue to happens accidents with the Q400s it can and will affect NZs choose.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7110 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 19165 times:

Quoting 777ER (Thread starter):
Wonder how this will affect NZs future Dash 8 Q fleet, since their ATR72 fleet will be replaced from 2009

Am hoping for the ATR -600 series, but at the moment the Q400 would still be well in the running one would think.


User currently offlineSKA380 From Norway, joined Jun 2005, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 19133 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 246):
That's not exactly true. It's supposed to work that way, but in several parts of the world there is a pretty brisk business in counterfeit parts. After all, if a shop in East Berzerkistan reverse engineers a landing gear bolt and sells it under the same P/N as the original, there is no way for Bombardier to know or to control it. All they can do is warn the operators to be on the look out for it. This has happened before (not specifically for Q400 landing gear bolts, as far as I know) and will happen again.

Well, i can't speak for what airlines does in other parts of the world, but i've worked for quite a few airlines in europe, including SAS, and the only place the buyers will go for request of purchasing parts, is in the list of vendors in the parts catalog of the manufacturer.
This is the way it's done in SAS and all the european airlines i've worked for at least..
In some airlines, you as a tech. is even asked to supply a part number AND the vendor code. As the the guys in the buyer section is to lazy to do so themself..

SKA380


User currently offlineJox From Sweden, joined Jan 2003, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 19049 times:
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SAS just came out with this info:

SAS Group will do everything possible to mitigate the negative consequences for
the passengers. Short and medium term SAS will take the following actions to
handle the replacement of the Q400 fleet (with estimated time frame)

1. Review of network and reallocation of aircraft capacity within the SAS group (0-3 months)
2. External wet lease capacity (0-1 month)
3. External dry lease capacity (3-6 months)

In parallel, work has already been initiated how to replace the aircraft type
long term. SAS expect to start to implement a long-term solution by second half
of 2008.


New planes in place in a year from now?? Believe or not?


User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17149 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 19009 times:

Quoting Jox (Reply 4):
SAS just came out with this info:

Really good job by SAS to be so fast. Hope it will go well with them.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17186 posts, RR: 66
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 19008 times:

Quoting Jox (Reply 4):
New planes in place in a year from now?? Believe or not?

Maybe they can wet lease some Q400s?  duck 

Quoting B747forever (Reply 5):

Really good job by SAS to be so fast. Hope it will go well with them.

It will cost them though. Even if they win the lawsuit against Bombardier, it'll be years and years before they see any money.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17149 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18992 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
it'll be years and years before they see any money.

Hmm, No it will not take many years, maybe 2.-3years before they see money again, but not years and years.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineNEMA From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 18726 times:

Hi, not being an expert i am a little confused here as to which aircraft i am scheduled to fly on. Travelling from Copenhagen to Birmingham in November with SAS.



It is listed on the booking form as a DH4

I understand by one person that a DH4 is a : De Havilland Canada DHC-8 Dash 8-400
And by another that its a : Q-400, a large Bombardier turboprop

Any help please.



There isnt really a dark side to the moon, as a matter of fact its all dark!
User currently offlineRevo From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 18720 times:

Quoting NEMA (Reply 8):
Hi, not being an expert i am a little confused here as to which aircraft i am scheduled to fly on. Travelling from Copenhagen to Birmingham in November with SAS.

What day are you travelling on and what time and i may be able to help

[Edited 2007-10-29 03:18:45]

User currently offlineEBGflyer From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 18684 times:

Quoting NEMA (Reply 8):
Hi, not being an expert i am a little confused here as to which aircraft i am scheduled to fly on. Travelling from Copenhagen to Birmingham in November with SAS.



It is listed on the booking form as a DH4

I understand by one person that a DH4 is a : De Havilland Canada DHC-8 Dash 8-400
And by another that its a : Q-400, a large Bombardier turboprop

Any help please.

If it's listed you're flying with the DH4 then expect you will either flying with different equipment or rebooked. The DH4 has been taken out of production permanently by SAS.



Future flights: CPH-BKK-MNL; MNL-GUM-TKK-PNI-KSA-KWA-MAJ-HNL-LAX
User currently offlineRevo From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 18628 times:

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 10):
If it's listed you're flying with the DH4 then expect you will either flying with different equipment or rebooked. The DH4 has been taken out of production permanently by SAS.

BHX has been getting a mixture of MD-87/MD-81/A319s lately so it is a very variable equipment schedule.


User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 18603 times:

Quoting NEMA (Reply 8):
I understand by one person that a DH4 is a : De Havilland Canada DHC-8 Dash 8-400
And by another that its a : Q-400, a large Bombardier turboprop

You are talking about the same aircraft, De Havilland Canada was taken over by Bombardier, so De Havilland Canada and Bombardier are, effectively, interchangable. It is almost certain you will fly on something that is not a Q400 though. Likely to be MD-80 or A319, I would have thought, if this does happen expect times of your fligth to be moved around. They may merge flights into one another.

Hope this helps.
Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineRevo From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18571 times:

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 12):
if this does happen expect times of your fligth to be moved around. They may merge flights into one another.

SK have been using MD-80/A319 to BHX for a few weeks now (mainly MD-87/81) and the times have been exactly the same and no flights have been merged--- although i am not saying this could not happen in the future.


User currently offlineNEMA From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18552 times:

Quoting Revo (Reply 9):
What day are you travelling on and what time and i may be able to help

Departing: Terminal 3, Copenhagen (CPH),
Copenhagen, Denmark
08:30 Sun

Arriving: Terminal 1, Birmingham International (BHX),
Birmingham, United Kingdom
09:50 Sun

Non-stop
Scandinavian Airlines (SK 2533) >
Aircraft type - DH4

Economy Restricted



Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 10):
If it's listed you're flying with the DH4 then expect you will either flying with different equipment or rebooked. The DH4 has been taken out of production permanently by SAS

OK Thanks for your reply

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 12):
You are talking about the same aircraft, De Havilland Canada was taken over by Bombardier, so De Havilland Canada and Bombardier are, effectively, interchangable.

OK Thanks for your reply


Just a short weekend break believe it or not to see the Christmas market at the Tivoli Gardens. Could have flown from my local airport East Mids with the new 'Sterling' airline service but chose from Birmingham to get two different aircraft. The outbound is as follows..

Departing: Terminal 1, Birmingham International (BHX),
Birmingham, United Kingdom
11:00 Fri

Arriving: Terminal 3, Copenhagen (CPH),
Copenhagen, Denmark
13:50 Fri

Non-stop
Scandinavian Airlines (SK 2534) >
Aircraft type - M80

Economy Restricted



There isnt really a dark side to the moon, as a matter of fact its all dark!
User currently offlineNEMA From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18542 times:

Quoting Revo (Reply 9):
What day are you travelling on and what time and i may be able to help

The day by the way Is returning on Sunday, 25th November.



There isnt really a dark side to the moon, as a matter of fact its all dark!
User currently offlineRevo From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18519 times:

The friday you go out will most likely be an MD-87 and the sunday i am not sure as up to last sunday was operated with a DASH 8Q400.

User currently offlineNEMA From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18490 times:

Quoting Revo (Reply 16):
and the sunday i am not sure as up to last sunday was operated with a DASH 8Q400.

OK, thanks again for your help.



There isnt really a dark side to the moon, as a matter of fact its all dark!
User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18401 times:

Sebring... are you for real?? I saw your reply on the first thread and you said that the first two Q400 incidents had nothing to do with the main gear... ALL THREE INCIDENTS WERE TO DO WITH THE RIGHT HAND MAIN GEAR! Get that into your head!!


Next Flights: LCY-DUB (E70), DUB-LHR (319), LHR-PHL (772), PHL-LAX (321), LAX-HNL (752), HNL-LAX (752), LAX-LHR (388)
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17186 posts, RR: 66
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18340 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 7):
Hmm, No it will not take many years, maybe 2.-3years before they see money again, but not years and years.

2-3 years to resolve an international lawsuit between two large corporations dealing with the quality of a high profile product that is essential to revenue generation for both? I think that's very optimistic. I foresee appeals for years to come.

Then again, maybe Bombardier will just pay up to get rid of it. SK certainly has nothing to lose at this point by insisting. They won't buy new Bombardier kit for quite a few years so they don't care about bad vendor relations with that company.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineMoriarty From Sweden, joined Jan 2006, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18328 times:

How drastic is this move if we put it in historic perspective?
[edit](I'm referring to the SAS decision to remove the Q400 completely from service.)

Now we have an airline ditching a particular aircraft due to severe problems.

I know of some examples, Comet for instance. But I don't know if that counts, the magnitude of the Comet crashes were a little different and it ended up terminating the entire aircraft type. Here we have "only" one (hope not more will follow) airline ditching a model. I'm guessing (and hoping) that the resent problems won't result in the termination of the Dash 8 Q400.

The Concorde also feels like a bad example since only two carriers operated it. But never the less, in the end part of the reason Concorde was stopped was due to loss of faith in the model. I know this is not the only (or perhaps not even the main) reason.

Another question has popped my mind. I'm guessing this puts severe pressure on Bombardier and that they are working hard to find a way out of this mess. But when looking I find almost only information about SAS, their actions and press releases. Seems very quiet from Bombardier as well as other operators? Or?

[Edited 2007-10-29 04:29:15]


Proud to part of www.novelair.com.
User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18310 times:

Just look at Boeing and Airbus.. how long has their dispute being going on for?? Well maybe SAS will order some E170/190s  Smile Although i wonder if these planes could all park at the Q400 ramp at Kastrup... there certainly isnt enough terminal space...


Next Flights: LCY-DUB (E70), DUB-LHR (319), LHR-PHL (772), PHL-LAX (321), LAX-HNL (752), HNL-LAX (752), LAX-LHR (388)
User currently offlineCF105Arrow From Canada, joined Oct 2007, 323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18244 times:

Quoting Moriarty (Reply 20):
The Concorde also feels like a bad example since only two carriers operated it. But never the less, in the end part of the reason Concorde was stopped was due to loss of faith in the model. I know this is not the only (or perhaps not even the main) reason.

The accident precipitated the end of The Concorde but:

Adjustment to the fleet would have been costly.
The planes were getting rather old.
The service was more a matter of pride than making economic sense.

It ended up to be a good exit time for both airlines (but an unfortunate one, may they all rest in peace)


User currently onlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4359 posts, RR: 35
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18203 times:

Quoting Moriarty (Reply 20):
How drastic is this move if we put it in historic perspective?
[edit](I'm referring to the SAS decision to remove the Q400 completely from service.)

The DC-10 accidents in 1979 made Air New Zealand switch to 747s. Even while Mt Erebus can't be blamed on the DC-10, the whole aura and feeling around the DC-10 was too sour afterwards for them.
Luxair quickened the F-50 withdrawl after their 2002 accident, ironically they bought 8Q-400s as they found the jet replacement not economical.
Nigerian operators quited BAC 1-11 operations after an accident in 2002, even while it was not purely the type to blame but more bad overhaul and procedures.
Aeroflot grounded all An-10s (a sort of passenger An-12) after too many accidents in 1972
Those are only some examples, especially earlier and in less developed countries, airtypes are withdrawn sometimes after accidents and incidents.
Luckily there is one big difference posters here sometimes seem to forget; not a single person has ever been killed on the Q400, the other DHC-8s have a great safety record too.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7313 posts, RR: 57
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18195 times:

I cannot believe that the Canadian's are accusing Denmark of Corruption. Anyone with any sense of the global market place knows that scandinavia is the least corrupt part of the world. Dont just take my word for it...

http://www.transparency.org/news_roo..._focus/2007/cpi2007/cpi_2007_table

Denmark is the least corrupt country in the world. Its official.


Amazing that my only two cancelled SK flights ever were Q400 flights to TXL. Its also amazing that Flybe - who use the Q400 as the backbone of their fleet is now nicknamed flymaybe...

[Edited 2007-10-29 04:53:30]


The world is really getting smaller these days
25 CPHGuard : They can park the aircraft in the southern part of the airport. I wonder if this will lead to cuts in crew. I know that the danish union already yest
26 SKAirbus : Maybe these Canadians are like some Americans.. they haven't got a clue about anything beyond their borders... Ask an average American kid if they kn
27 LH744 : So can anyone tell if the three airplanes (LN-RDI, LN-RDK, LN-RDS), with which the landing gear incidents occured, will ever fly again? Are they hull
28 Post contains images CF105Arrow : Not so, since Greenland is not far beyond our border and it is a Danish province.
29 Post contains images SKAirbus : Maybe its just the Americans then . But seriously Sebring must be a Bombardier employee judging by his denial and idiotic accusations.... It has alre
30 Moriarty : Exactly. Thanks for answering, I suspected there were more examples out there. So even if this feels drastic it's not unique. Well, maybe unique as t
31 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Gee, funny. Well let's see, most incidents with one airline, I guess now I know who to root for. It does take someone special to drag Americans into
32 Sxf24 : The attitude of superiority of those from Scandinavia is disgusting. This is not about Canada vs. Denmark, it is about whether the blame lies with SK
33 CPHGuard : Did you read the posts ????? Faulty manufacturing and Bombardier maintenance guidelines caused the first two accidents. THAT IS A FACT !!!! We don't
34 Sxf24 : It is not a fact that faulty manufacturing cased the first two incidents. BBD has obviously taken responsibility and action regarding its maintenance
35 Voodoo : Well, to be fair, I think this has as much to do with integrating BA Conn. as any Q400 problems.
36 Johnnybgoode : although it is correct that all three incidents were to do with the right hand main gear, it remains to be seen whether Saturday's accident is indeed
37 ModernArt : Waiting for you to post something that actually relates to the SAS incident that isn't a slam on Americans, Canadians, et al. Fact remains to be seen
38 Post contains images SKAirbus : Well i was just playing with some stereotypes . But when someone accusses the least corrupt nation in the world of being corrupt in their accident in
39 Grunf : Well there is a possibility that third accident wan't caused by manufacturing issues but by some SK snafu. That's a very unfortunate development as ge
40 SpencerII : Intersting, I was recently in STockholm and watched a Danish Game Show on TV. They ask the Dane what state in the United States the city of Kansas Cit
41 Degenfly : It seems that certain members of this forum dismiss the conclusions of the Danish investigation into the first two crashes simply because it was done
42 SpencerII : Interesting, I was recently in Stockholm and there was a game show on TV, and they asked the Dane what state in the United States Kansas City was loc
43 Post contains images Starlionblue : And good luck to them. I give it at the very least 5 years, if ever. Now now. Canada isn't too bad either on that front. This illustrates well what I
44 Mika : And this has what to do with SK and Bombardier?
45 SKAirbus : I never said that Canada was corrupt... it is also a very open society but a Canadian person accused Denmark of being corrupt... I myself have a Norw
46 EXAAUADL : I have a very difficult time believing that there is something really serriously wrong with the DH4, at elast nothing that cant be easily fixed. This
47 SKAirbus : These aircraft were all built within 3 months of eachother if i recall correctly so it could well be a bad batch but remember Augsburg airways also h
48 Planemaker : Thank you for pointing this fact out (though it has been brought up a few times already). Any check of industry news' database will inform any person
49 Post contains images Birdbrainz : No. It's in Sweden, right? Ask your average Danish kid to find Manitoba. It would be a real shame for you to get out and actually meet some average A
50 Post contains images SKAirbus : I was joking   Sometimes bringing out stereotypes can be fun, even if they aren't necessarily true... But just so you know i have visited almost eve
51 Post contains images Planemaker : You should have quit when you were a head with Manitoba... Victoria is NOT an island... it is the Capital City of B.C. and is located on the southern
52 SKAirbus : Yes i realised that after i wrote it... typo sorry... But i just did some research and Victoria is an island in the far north of Canada...
53 Mortyman : SAS was the launch customer for the aircraft and got the first generation of the type. May have something to do with that.
54 Post contains images Planemaker : No worries... even a lot of Canadians get that wrong and call it Victoria Island instead of Vancouver Island.
55 Post contains links Mortyman : According to Dueholm, SAS may lease new DASH 8 from Bombardier. SAS still regard Bombardier as a qualified partner... says John Dueholm vice ceo of SA
56 Post contains images Olympus69 : To lighten the mood somewhat. Canadians know where Denmark is. Most of it is in the Atlantic ocean near Baffin Island. This part is called Kalaallit N
57 Post contains images Mortyman : I'm glad you've noticed that. It's a VIKING thing. We're totally shameless Kind of comes with the territory. Are you pissing in your pants yet ? You
58 Planemaker : Just to clarify for readers... that is in kronors not dollars. In dollars it is $75-million.
59 Arrow : Good post. In reading this and the other threads, what struck me is the fact that virtually all the verbiage is coming from SAS and its supporters, a
60 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Well now that we've gotten the whole Canada/US/Scandanavia three way out of the way I still am wondering... The fleet. Last thread said they were leas
61 Sxf24 : The investigation said BBD did not tell airlines to check the inside of the pistons, not that BBD or Goodrich manufactured a faulty product. ANA and
62 Post contains images Planemaker : Yes, and canadians are trying to take away some frozen Dane rock near the Canadinan international boundary! This is actually the 4th gear failure for
63 Post contains links Mortyman : Bombardier blast SAS There was an interview with Bombardier information person Marc Duchesne today were he and Bombardier blame SAS entirely and quest
64 Post contains links SKA380 : On a similar thread on a scandinavian forum, there seems to be a guy working for SK technical in Copenhagen that has a temporary solution as to what w
65 NEMA : If you read my post Mika, you would have noted that i asked what a DH4 was, regarding my pending trip from Copenhagen to Birmingham on SAS, and the a
66 Post contains links BestWestern : http://www.hcl.dk/graphics/Synkron-L...minary%20Report%20med%20header.pdf Preliminary report of earlier accident.
67 SKA380 : I'd say it doesn't matter what gear that fails, the fact is that the Q400 has had a LOT of incidents lately on several carriers and that should be in
68 ACVitale : For anyone to make such a statement shows their own ignorance. Many Americans know exactly where Denmark is. Probably more can accurately point out D
69 Bmacleod : This morning on CBC Newsworld, some idiot even mentioned that the entire future of Bombardier may be at risk. THE Q400 IS ONLY ONE OF BOMBARDIER'S MAN
70 BestWestern : European regulators to hold crisis meeting with Bombardier and Canadian authorities to discuss the airworthiness of the Q400, EASA is “concerned”
71 Sxf24 : Do you realize that these types of failures are not unusual in commercial aviation?
72 CF105Arrow : That would be the day, BBD the largest train manufacturer in the world and 3rd largest aircraft manufacturer going under because of some faulty landi
73 JoeCanuck : Indeed. Google A320 + "nose gear". I don't hear a lot of hew and cry about pulling 320's from fleets.
74 SpencerII : I guess QX's MIke Rose is supposed to be making a media statement shortly about the feelings at Alaska Air Group about the Q400 and the SK incident(s)
75 Planemaker : Now they do but that was not the case in Oct 2002 (RATI)... Bombardier is trying to address reliability problems with both types through post-deliver
76 Mortyman : Operators of the q 400: All Nippon Airways (ANA) Lufthansa Regional (Tyskland) Austrian Arrows (Østerrike) Croatia (Kroatia) Flybe (Storbritannia) Fl
77 Threepoint : Did anybody else catch this? "as if Denmark was some corrupt third world country" appears to be exactly the 'disgusting attitude of superiority' that
78 SKAirbus : Well if you look at the A320 and compare it to the Q400 as an average... i think you will find that 6 (i think) gear collapses in 3 years is a lot...
79 EBGflyer : Yes, let's not forget the Bombardier tram scandal in Helsinki. They were so awesome at breaking down so Helsinki had to buy old german ones to replac
80 Birdbrainz : I'm sorry about that. It just touched a nerve, and the geography jokes get really tiresome. Btw, I spend a summer at an internship in DK while in col
81 JoeCanuck : Google any airplane + "problems" and you'll find a host of issues...complete with dramatic quotes.
82 Threepoint : Listen...this Canada v Denmark thing. We proven it's lopsided on the ice rink, so is this another method of escalation in preparation for some ungodly
83 SKAirbus : The same thing happened with the new U-bahn trains in Munich if I recall correctly.. they were often out of service because of software defects...
84 Planemaker : Not like the Q400's problems. The fact is that the Q400 has had more problems for the not only the number delivered but for being the 4th variant of
85 JoeCanuck : Hey...remember those cartoons...? Nice political correctness. Very insensitive for such a forward thinking country. While we're not forgetting stuff,
86 Arrow : Not to defend Bombardier here, but the Q-400 is well beyond the original Dash 8 and the 300 stretch -- it's almost a new airplane; certainly has a ne
87 CPHGuard : It's interesting that Bombardier are blaming SAS. Less than a month ago, Bombardier recommended that all Q400's with more than 10000 cycles were groun
88 Planemaker : There is no glee. Unfortunately, a lot of responses have not remained factual or on topic and this is because most Canadian posters have reacted defe
89 SKA380 : Of course i know that these kind of failures are common, i deal with it every single day... But for ONE type of aircraft that has been produced less
90 JoeCanuck : I don't recall any posters saying that the plane had no problems. I, among others, have mentioned that it is not the only plane which has had problem
91 SKAirbus : Well most people including the immigrant population in Denmark agree that these cartoons should have been published as they show that there is a full
92 Sxf24 : No they did not. They recommended they be inspected. The number of failures is not bad. You only think so because of the media hype. The Q400 has def
93 Planemaker : Then you haven't reaad the complete thread (both part 1 and 2 - though I don't blame you!) Other planes aren't relevant to this discussion... (except
94 RIXrat : Let's remember, people, that this is not a national pride issue like hockey. It is a fight between two large corporations, which is not a cheer-leadin
95 SAS330GOT : IMHO I think you guys are concentrating too much on weather the reason for the retirement of the fleet is because of technical difficulties. I would s
96 CF188A : I just find it ironic that it is this airline having the issues. For those of you who have witnessed some Porter landings at YTZ (Toronto City Center)
97 SKAirbus : Well you like other Canadians on this forum have ignored the endless posts about the offical cause of the first to incidents. I really cannot be arse
98 JoeCanuck : Do a check for commonality between the 100, 200 and 300 series Dash 8's and the Q-400. You'll probably find the cabin dimensions and cockpit are simi
99 Arrow : Don't read too much into that. Porter's planes are brand new. Yes they are. A big piece of this discussion is about how the Q-400's reliability is so
100 Post contains links WFM : Hello, Just read that EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency) has called Bombardier and Canadian authorities to a meeting regarding problems with DASH
101 CF105Arrow : Dear SKAirbus, Please allow me to clarify one thing: To criticize is one thing, to insult people is another. It is your right to criticize Muslims as
102 Threepoint : Whoa, easy there. I think you need to insert the phrase: "like SOME other Canadians..." Don't paint with such a large brush. The fact that the airpla
103 Danny : With oil reaching $100 I find it strange that so many predict SAS to replace Q400 with jet aircraft. Imo ATR 72-500 s obvious and only choice here. It
104 Post contains images BR715-A1-30 : While they're at it, why not wet lease some A380s too!
105 Degenfly : This is wrong actually. If you read the article more carefully you will see that Bombardier does not make any accusations against SAS. The insinuatio
106 Degenfly : According to the local press the aircraft are leased from Bombardier, and the contract expires in 2012.
107 Hightower : As a dane, living in Copenhagen, I think you're pretty wrong about that. Looks like you've been swallowing too much what the newspaper Jyllands-peste
108 SKAirbus : Sorry to everyone for losing my temper somewhat but it felt like i was speaking to a brick wall... SAS is a company very dear to me as it features pro
109 Lnglive1011yyz : I really do hope your spewage of insanely stereotypical garbage is just tongue-in-cheek, because for one, I'm terribly offended by your apparent lack
110 Bond007 : I wonder how many Americans know the answer(s) .... that's much more interesting to know. Jimbo
111 SKAirbus : Read my most recent reply... i apologised for being too defensive. I guess i was getting frustrated... Also in posts after that one i said i was brin
112 Sxf24 : The preliminary result of the investigation showed corrosion. It has yet to be proven whether this was a design or maintenance issue. In addition, th
113 Planemaker : No, it isn't meaningless because it has the same the same type certificate... that isn't meaningless! And the Q400 differences vs the 100, 200 and 30
114 CF105Arrow : Guys, could we drop the argument with SKAirbus and go back to the subject. He already posted his excuses. Peace my friends
115 Mortyman : It was a collective effort that helped end world war 2 and the cold war. Canada certainly did it's part and so did the USA. But you North Americans h
116 Bond007 : Correct .... I've truly heard too many Americans say "...if it wasn't for us you'd all be ...." , when they in fact have no clue what happened in WWI
117 Multimark : Might I point out that "home-state" investigations are often susceptible to national bias. Certainly the conclusions reached by the Dutch when invest
118 Prebennorholm : There just ain't gonna be no war. At some time there will be a stack of sccident reports to read. And long time before that AESA, BBD and SAS will ha
119 EBGflyer : What? To my knowledge SAS does not receive any support by any government.. SAS a quasi-private company listed on the stock exchance. 50% are owned by
120 Moriarty : There's a lot of feelings and national pride here. But I find the bullshitting and insulting part rather pointless and it really spoils things. Bad en
121 Post contains images CF105Arrow : Very well put
122 Post contains links and images Mortyman : I'm sad to hear that. SAS has through history been pioneers in the industry. I strongly urge you all to read SAS history on their homepage. Facinatin
123 Threepoint : I wonder if the chairman's statement reflects some advance posturing in anticipation of future contract and workplace standards negotiations. I'm sur
124 Post contains links Danny : Email for Eurobonus members: "Dear Customer, It is with regret that we can once again state that one of our Dash 8 Q400 aircraft has been involved in
125 Viscount724 : I'm sure they will be repaired and sold. They're shown as "substantial damage". It's fairly rare for a landing gear incident to result in a hull loss
126 Alessandro : Yes, serious stuff, imagine if Q400 gets banned in EU, many airlines Air Berlin (10 ordered), Augsburg 5, Austrian Arrows 10, Croatian Airlines (4 or
127 BestWestern : Excellent post Prebennorholm. An airline putting safety before profit. A sign of a mature airline. I notice that Bombardier stock fell 8% this mornin
128 Someone83 : Mr Lundtoft Jensen is a clown and always eager to get some publicity, and always seems to have an opinoin about everything regarding SAS. 9 out of 10
129 Post contains links BestWestern : The Financial Times (probably the most read business newspaper globally) described the SK decision as: "a big blow to the credibility of Canada’s Bo
130 Threepoint : There are frequent claims on this forum on how dim the general flying public is. Although the vast majority are not close to the members of this webs
131 Prebennorholm : That's right, 1011yyz. But I am afraid that we can add a third reason, that SAS and BBD got together on a wrong footing right from the beginning. I d
132 Post contains links BestWestern : This is not just a SAS issue OSAKA--Seventy-three malfunction cases have been reported on DHC8-Q400 planes of Canada-based Bombardier Inc. since the
133 Post contains links BestWestern : http://www.airtransportnews.aero/article.pl?&id=5788 2003, Vienna. "Safety Is and Remains Our Supreme Commandment" - Comprehensive action plan for Das
134 Post contains images Aleksandar : What really surprised me was the tone in official SAS statement. It is rather harsh and not very often seen in airline business as such. Even when the
135 Post contains links Aviopic : Huh....... as far as I can see he did stop the engine. It's just because the prop doesn't feather properly(another failure ?) that it starts wind mil
136 Post contains images Boeing4ever : I guess the question then becomes, what will Bombardier do with the Q400s from SAS. Now I've read that the other Dash 8 models, Q100-300 haven't had
137 Mortyman : SAS has already gotten many calls from companies interested in their q 400's according to Norwegian newspaper.
138 SKAirbus : Seriously already? Do you we know who these companies are?? If i were an airline i wouldn't accept any of these aircraft until the cause of the 3rd a
139 BestWestern : Bombardier shares are currently trading 23.39% below its 52-week high of 6.97, set on June 20, 2007. Boeing shares are currently 10.05% below its 52-w
140 Multimark : I'm not sure why you have a hate-on for the Q400, but your post is misleading, in that the vast majority of your bullet points are related to the SAS
141 Post contains images Boeing4ever : From who? These aircraft will probably have to be refurbished anyway. I can see other airlines that are happy with their Q400's wanting more. It'd be
142 Prebennorholm : Huh, Aviopic, you are mixing up all those accidents. I was talking about the very first accident at AAL. You are talking about the last accident at C
143 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Yeah, that was the next thing I was going to ask after watching the video of the AAL incident a few times. So the pilot only thought it was an indica
144 Lnglive1011yyz : My friend, you are very correct -- I want to unequivocally state that I wasn't trying to imply that Canada was the only nation that helped. There wer
145 XT6Wagon : Its amazing to see who says what about the Q400... I wonder what the forum would be like if say.. the A320 had 3 serious landing gear failures in 4 mo
146 Prebennorholm : Dash 8-100 / -200 / -300 is three variants of one plane type. The Q400 share the same fuselage diameter and practically nothing else. The 100-200-300
147 Lnglive1011yyz : You make a lot of good analogies, however this statement is .. what I'd believe to be called 'stretching it' a bit.. The Q400's for SAS are 'older' (
148 BestWestern : No 'hate-on' , just absolute surprise at Bombardiers "who, us???" attitude to the issue. I would naturally disagree. There is a problem with the Q400
149 Mortyman : Sorry, no the article did'nt say. However I guess it will be an issue with SAS and Bombardier who the customer will be. All of SAS DAsh 8 q 400's but
150 BestWestern : Oh, come off it. Flamebait Flamebait Pure bullshit Hearsay
151 Prebennorholm : First of all they will stay exactly where they are until the authorities have lifted the grounding. They may get a waiver for a single ferry flight t
152 Post contains images Boeing4ever : I see. Say, Boeing owned DHC at one point. How come that marriage didn't last forever? And the CRJs, no problems with those aircraft? Interesting. Wh
153 Jfidler : Are the moderators working today? About half the posts in this thread should be deleted as they are off-topic and often political. There are other pla
154 Post contains images Boeing4ever : I like the suggestion someone else made earlier...just weld the suckers down and fly 'em like that. Still beats an RJ in efficiency. B4e-Forever New
155 XT6Wagon : Lol, saving the comedy gold here. The question mark at the end of a sentance performs a task. We use a questionmark to indicate a question is being a
156 Vfw614 : I am surprised nobody is discussing the short-term replacement issue...... IIRC, a sizeable fleet of Fokker 100s is coming off a wet-lease in Germany,
157 Post contains images SKAirbus : Hmm sounds interesting.... Although the F100 probably could only be seen as a short term solution as SAS will probably require an RJ or Turboprob to
158 Prebennorholm : Huh, we'll have to ask the Boeing managers. My Guess: Their business was not considered a Boeing core business, and at that time Boeing was not a par
159 Scalebuilder : This is something yet to be done. Horizon Air, and I believe the biggest Q400 operator, has had no serious incidents with this type. SAS which I beli
160 Post contains images AWombat : Actually they were Wombats
161 Prebennorholm : My guess would be that they will vacuum clean the market for used SAAB 2000 and BAe-146/ARJ. Both types are known or previously known in the SAS fami
162 Scalebuilder : Hello Prebennorholm From what I understand there are hardly any. Widerøe will be hurting way more from this grounding (in terms of percent of traffi
163 Viscount724 : According to a couple of fleet info sites, Horizon and flybe are currently tied for first place among Q400 operators, each with 33 in service. Bombar
164 Scalebuilder : Thanks for your input! I was going, not by the frames ordered, but delivered. I guess I used source info different or less timely than what you came
165 Post contains links JoeCanuck : http://www.finnguide.fi/sightguide/aviation_airlines_news.asp?a=3819 Gee...with all those unreliable airplanes, how could they have managed this...?
166 CF188A : your rude. retire your membership did you now? So you are a hypocrite... you stereotype us.... {Canadians}' because it's Bombardier??? No, it was a s
167 Starlionblue : Fatalities are not a very good indicator of safety for a type. The vast majority of airliner accidents, especially in the last few decades, are prima
168 CPHGuard : They STRONGLY recommended it. As always a VERY good post Preben.
169 Post contains links CPHGuard : Preliminary report is now available from the Danish AIB. English report: http://www.hcl.dk/graphics/Synkron-L...DI%20Preliminary%20Report%20UK.pdf In
170 Moriarty : Interesting indeed. This suggests that the last one is an isolated event, how unlikely it may seem. Let's see what the rest of the investigation reve
171 T prop : Chances are high that the object that is blocking the orifice was introduced when maintenance on the actuators was done. I'm not going to comment on w
172 Post contains images OHLHD : I missed that out completly since I was not at home during the last days. Good that nobody was seriously injured. I think it is a good decision to dum
173 Scrumpy492003 : PLEASE forgive my ignorance. What is the "real" difference between a regular 400 and a Q400. OK, I know that the Q stands for quiet, BUT most of the a
174 JoeCanuck : There is only the Q version of the 400. The 100, 200 and 300 versions have all been made Q by active and passive noise attenuation.
175 Post contains images SKA380 : LOL If anything got bent during landing, then that surely would be a design flaw..
176 Post contains links TripleDelta : BBD has been pompous a bit with boldly claiming OU is an operator of the Q400 - with the order not yet fully complete and the aircraft still some 6-7
177 Post contains images Aleksandar : I've read it It is interesting to see it. I still believe OU could do better with ATR-72s especially having in mind more than a decade of experience
178 Vfw614 : Well, there are exactly two Saab 2000s on the market. That will not be of any help. None of the airlines operating the Saab 2000 is in the ACMI-busin
179 SKAirbus : I apologised.. and how does that make me a hypocrite? But it would be good if you read some of the facts about the first two incidents... But to be q
180 Flymad : Not in aviation guys so please don't flame me. What are the main differences betweeen the Q400 and the previous models that made/make the Q400 "probl
181 Voodoo : Landing gear is different. And flight deck avionics are more 'advanced' I believe. Engines are different but I have not heard of problems with them s
182 Sxf24 : I was referring more to the posturing on the part of EASA - a crisis meeting to discuss "continued airworthiness" is a shrewed political move to seem
183 SKAirbus : Well to be honest i think what EASA are trying to do is to see whether action should be taken after 3 incidents in the EU... Maybe to most people thi
184 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Interesting. I suspected that the repair work carried out might in September might possibly be a contributing factor. "Fix one problem, create 10 mor
185 Post contains images Prebennorholm : Thanks vfw614 for a good round up in reply #178. Great to see that some a.netters do some positive research and share the data here in a factual way.
186 Sprout5199 : Well to be honest, There is a Kansas City, Kansas and a Kansas City, Missouri. I wonder if SAS was told this and then sort stepped back when they sai
187 Prebennorholm : 58 hours. The cause was known when the second accident happened. But since it was a physically "hidden" problem, and nothing like that had been seen
188 Lnglive1011yyz : Thank you for the insight -- probably the only legitimate and welcomed post out of the entire thread. It will be interesting to see what ends up happ
189 Sprout5199 : Thanks. Now that it "looks" like the third has nothing to do with the first two, it seems to me that SAS needed to get rid of the Q400 on a "PR" issu
190 Post contains images Planemaker : Close but not entirely right. The Ontario Government bought 49% and BBD bought 51% but only after the offer by ATR to buy DH from Boeing was blocked.
191 SKA380 : Noone has indicated anything else, have they? SAS has said from the very first press conference that this decition was to save SAS' reputation only..
192 Threepoint : I bet not. If SAS has decided to withdraw the Q400 for public confidence reasons, that same public will not make a distinction between year 2000-buil
193 Prebennorholm : Latest news: A loose rubber O-ring, belonging nowhere in the landing gear, was found to block the hydraulic actuator on the CPH accident plane.
194 Alessandro : My guess is that MD80ies and B737s are going to be used if possible, I know that previous Q400 route ARN-Örnsköldsvik was operated by a B737.
195 Prebennorholm : Sure BBD doesn' have the inside track. But SAS management told the press already Sunday that new Q400s could not be ruled out as long term replacemen
196 BuyantUkhaa : Hmm.... that would be SAS mx then - or "sabotage" .
197 Prebennorholm : Maybe a little hastily written same minute as the news was released. "O-ring belonging nowhere in the landing gear" means that it was an "extra" loos
198 B747forever : That is really sad but true. The Q400s was a great aircraft for SAS.
199 Hightower : Ask any SAS frequent-flyer passenger about that and I don't think you'll get that kind of response, atleast not what I've heard any of them say in th
200 Olympus69 : If this was a Hollywood movie of the later "Airport" type, and not real life, it would definitely be sabotage.
201 Aeronut : Can you explain how you have arisen to your conclusion concerning whom is potentially at fault?
202 Threepoint : Well that leaves Bombardier off the hook (hopefully) for this latest accident. But why do I think this story is far from over (hint: lawsuits naming
203 Sebring : There could also be an outside contractor or supplier if that assembly was ever replaced or rebuilt outside SK. One would have to review the plane's
204 Bennett123 : If the o ring was inside the actuator when the undercarriage assembly arrived from Goodrich, would it be inspected by Bombardier before being fitted.
205 XT6Wagon : Some people are missing something. BBD and Goodrich have nothing to do with this O ring being there. SAS MX just completely rebuilt the landing gear a
206 Arrow : This has to take some of the pressure off BBD. The incident that sparks SAS to permanently ground its Q400 fleet turns out to be either a problem in G
207 Post contains links Bennett123 : The only curious point is that reports seem to suggest the Jejuair mishap has a similar cause. Jejuair Q400 Gear Up Landing (by Ole Oct 30 2007 in Civ
208 Prebennorholm : Not entirely correct. SAS exchanged all defective parts with new spares on the whole fleet. It has not been reported how large subassemblies arrived
209 Aeronut : So what happens if this is a SAS maintenance issue anyways?
210 Bennett123 : If it is an SK error, then they cop it for Number 3, and BBD for numbers 1/2.
211 CF188A : your rude, retire your membership . Aside from which I do not have the time to read through your pointless childish posts to get your point . I saw y
212 Scalebuilder : Aren't you jumping to conclusions here? How would you know?
213 Someone83 : They can't take it back as the Scandinavian public don't want to fly the Q400. There are so many here in Scandinavia at the moment that will do anyth
214 Vfw614 : ....well, if they continue trashing them at the rate of the previous weeks, there wouldn't be any left in a couple of months anyway. On a more serious
215 Degenfly : Has Wideroe had the same problems as SAS with regards to tech-issues/reliability for the Q400? I think there's a chance that Wideroe may keep their a
216 OHLHD : My mother´s husband was supposed to fly with a Q400 3 days ago ( don´t know the correct routing) but he told me that some business travellers volunt
217 Post contains links 777ER : This topic is obviously very popular, so heres part three SAS Dumps All Dash 8Q400s Part 3 (by 777ER Oct 31 2007 in Civil Aviation)
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