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Why Only AA And AF On CDG-MIA Route?  
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2739 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5165 times:

I was wondering why only AA and AF fly nonstop from CDG to MIA.
AA flies daily with a 763, and AF flies also daily with a 744;
do you think other airlines could fly the route? What about CO with a 762/4 (and soon with 787s)?


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4965 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5155 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
do you think other airlines could fly the route? What about CO with a 762/4 (and soon with 787s)?

Probably not... MIA is a hub only for AA. The only other airline I could see doing the route is maybe DL, but even that's a stretch...



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineBartond From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 791 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5143 times:

I'm sure MAH will chime in on this, but CO probably would rather route MIA or CDG pax through EWR for their Paris flight. No real reason to start up a random MIA-CDG flight on CO metal. CO might already codeshare with AF via Skyteam but I'm not sure.

I'm sure it's a viable route if AF flies a 744 on it, but AA's big presence at MIA will mean that you'll probably see increased frequencies from them before another carrier begins the route. That and/or increased AF/KL capacity but not a CO flight. The only type of carrier I could see beginning new service would be a charter. MAH, your thoughts?


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5137 times:

I guess I could see Corsair flying it maybe....maybe

User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5106 times:

AA has the feed to justify long hauls out of MIA. AF has the feed at the CDG end. No one else connects enough passengers at either end to justify the route.
From the MIA web page:
Last year AA/AE served nearly 22 million passengers at MIA. The closest airline to them is Delta with just over 1 million.

Also all the other airlines on the US side have hubs they would like to connect you through which don't involve much backtracking for the passenger. DL through ATL, CO through EWR, US through CLT/PHL, and UA through IAD. None of them could justify transatlantic ops from MIA with the limited feed and nearby hubs.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5106 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I was wondering why only AA and AF fly nonstop from CDG to MIA.
AA flies daily with a 763, and AF flies also daily with a 744;

Well, AF is the largest French airline with its hub in Paris, thus AF flies MIA-CDG.

AA is the dominant airline at MIA with a powerful hub at that airport, thus, AA flies MIA-CDG.

Seems like two logical carriers are flying the route.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
do you think other airlines could fly the route?

Possibly a carrier flying to a destination beyond Paris under fifth freedoms.....say EK flying MIA-CDG-DXB? Or, under EU open skies, maybe another European airline could take interest in this route....unlikely but possible.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
What about CO with a 762/4 (and soon with 787s)?

Why CO? Their hubs are at CLE, EWR and IAH and have a limited presence at MIA........why would they open a MIA-CDG route in competition with SkyTeam partner AF?


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2739 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5106 times:

yes, but Corsair is a charter; I should have precised that I speak about scheduled ailines


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently onlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3355 posts, RR: 45
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5096 times:

The same reason only AA and LH fly DFW-FRA, or only CO and BA fly IAH-LGW. MIA is a hub for AA, and a spoke for AF, and vice versa for CDG. MIA has a very loyal AAdvantage FF base, and AF offered it in the past I know to connect with their little operation they had at MIA, and to provide service to a large US area.

Another airline (save for Corsair) would be requiring basically on O&D. I don't claim to know that much about scheduling, but there probably aren't TOO many cases of two O&D cities working on a long-haul flight.

Cheers,
Cameron


User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4970 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 6):
yes, but Corsair is a charter; I should have precised that I speak about scheduled ailines

They offer regularly scheduled services as well.

In addition to the connecting traffic in CDG, AF also offers connections from MIA and PAP to numerous French Caribbean destinations.



"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33280 posts, RR: 71
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4957 times:

There is no viable option for another full-service airline to fly the route.

However, there have always been various, no-start attempts to start all-business class ventures between South Florida and France, to cater to the strong amount of "jet set" demand, and Miami's large and wealthy French ex-pat community. Not surprisingly, none have gotten off the ground. The two most recent attempts have been from a group of French investors in 2003-04 who wanted to begin an all-business class 757 service between Fort Lauderdale and Nice, and, just last year, a Miami company, ICON International Holdings, that wants to emulate the Eos/Maxjet model for the Miami market (as well as competing in the New York market), with Miami-Paris being one of the "phase II" markets. ICON is still in the planning stages, but I wouldn't hold my breathe for them to ever launch.

http://www.flyicon.com/

If another airline ever entered the South Florida-Paris market, it would be Delta from Fort Lauderdale, IMO. I think they could do very well with an FLL-CDG service.

[Edited 2007-10-29 13:57:14]


a.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33280 posts, RR: 71
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4950 times:

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 7):
and AF offered it in the past I know to connect with their little operation they had at MIA,

AF has never offered connecting operations at MIA. Air France has been flying MIA-PAP for nearly 30 years, well before they started MIA-CDG (which started circa 1987-88, IIRC). The Port Au Prince flight has never been purposely timed to connect to Paris. As it is now, the daily A320 to Port Au Prince departs MIA in the morning, and arrives after sunset. The only way to connect CDG-PAP or PAP-CDG on Air France via Miami is to overnight in Miami.



a.
User currently onlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3355 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4919 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
AF has never offered connecting operations at MIA. Air France has been flying MIA-PAP for nearly 30 years, well before they started MIA-CDG (which started circa 1987-88, IIRC). The Port Au Prince flight has never been purposely timed to connect to Paris. As it is now, the daily A320 to Port Au Prince departs MIA in the morning, and arrives after sunset. The only way to connect CDG-PAP or PAP-CDG on Air France via Miami is to overnight in Miami.

Interesting. I may be thinking of IB, didn't/don't they have a narrowbody operation in MIA? I remember distinctly seeing an AF A320 in MIA, I think I may be mixing it up with IB.

Mark, WHEN IS THAT AA MIA-AUS ROUTE COMING!?!?!?!

Cheers,
Cameron


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7808 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4901 times:

I cant think of another airline where MIA-CDG would be a viable choice. As Mark pointed out (and I agree with him), if another carrier comes in with South Florida-Paris service it will be DL with FLL-CDG.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 11):
Mark, WHEN IS THAT AA MIA-AUS ROUTE COMING!?!?!?!

For the life of me, I cant figure out why AA decided AUS-SNA was a more viable choice than AUS-MIA.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33280 posts, RR: 71
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4870 times:

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 11):
I remember distinctly seeing an AF A320 in MIA, I think I may be mixing it up with IB.

Air France does have daily A320 service to Miami from Port Au Prince, operating as a multi-stop flight to/from various French territories, but always stopping in PAP before continuing to the French territories. It leaves Miami every morning at around 8.30AM, and arrives every night at around 8PM. The operation, though, does not feed the Paris flight. It's pure O&D.

Air France is popular with travelers on the Miami-Haiti market. Even though their fares are about the same as AA, they have hot meal service, even in coach, during the less than two hour flight.



a.
User currently offlineAussiestu From Australia, joined Mar 2001, 780 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4810 times:

Is there any other scheduled airline in france to compete with AF to fly this route. While AA has loads of competitors in the US to compete with it on the MIA-CDG route none of them choose to do so. But is there any other carrier that is French that could compete with AF on this route? I am lead to believe that AF does not actually have another major competitor that is French based to compete with, correct me if thats wrong?

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33280 posts, RR: 71
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4789 times:

Quoting Aussiestu (Reply 14):
But is there any other carrier that is French that could compete with AF on this route? I am lead to believe that AF does not actually have another major competitor that is French based to compete with, correct me if thats wrong?

Crosair, but they focus almost entirely on leisure routes to French territories. They did use to fly to Oakland, California, but it was a stop on the way to Tahiti.

AOM, a French airline that existed between 1988 and 2001, competed with Air France to Miami in the late 1980s and early 1990s. They also flew to LAX.



a.
User currently offlineFoxXray From France, joined May 2005, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4777 times:

Quoting Aussiestu (Reply 14):
Is there any other scheduled airline in france to compete with AF to fly this route. While AA has loads of competitors in the US to compete with it on the MIA-CDG route none of them choose to do so. But is there any other carrier that is French that could compete with AF on this route? I am lead to believe that AF does not actually have another major competitor that is French based to compete with, correct me if thats wrong?

Miami is a popular destination in France so i think that Corsair could easily make money from ORY to MIA and probably from LYS during summer... but Corsair didn't fly to the USA since 5 or 6 years !

It would be nice to see them flying back to the USA in the future.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33280 posts, RR: 71
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4758 times:

Quoting FoxXray (Reply 16):

Miami is a popular destination in France so i think that Corsair could easily make money from ORY to MIA and probably from LYS during summer... but Corsair didn't fly to the USA since 5 or 6 years !

More so than Lyon, I bet you Corsair could maybe do well running MIA-NCE 2-3x a week with the right sized aircraft. The majority of Miami's French ex-pat community comes from areas surrounding Nice, not Paris. However, I really don't think that they want to focus on the US market right now, and I think they would have a difficult time stealing traffic from Air France and American, even if they offered a non-stop to another market that bypassed Paris.

If Corsair ever did decide to return to the US, Miami and Los Angeles are the obvious choices.



a.
User currently offlineFoxXray From France, joined May 2005, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4742 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
Crosair, but they focus almost entirely on leisure routes to French territories. They did use to fly to Oakland, California, but it was a stop on the way to Tahiti.

Yes, Corsair fly mostly to French territories but also to Montreal (from April to October) and they are doing very well on this route with 744 and A332.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4736 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
If another airline ever entered the South Florida-Paris market, it would be Delta from Fort Lauderdale, IMO. I think they could do very well with an FLL-CDG service.

Wonder if we'll see something along those lines circa 2010+, now that they could essentially operate the flight as an extension of AF, should all go as expected with the jv.


User currently offlineFoxXray From France, joined May 2005, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4736 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
If Corsair ever did decide to return to the US, Miami and Los Angeles are the obvious choices.

Yes, i think so.


User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7279 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4686 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I was wondering why only AA and AF fly nonstop from CDG to MIA.

I think the real question is why is AA the only airline flying MIA-JFK (besides for DL two flights) MIA-BOS, MIA-DCA, MIA-LAX, MIA-SFO. These are some routes that need some more competition. Hopefully Virgin America will come in on some of these.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3447 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4619 times:

Quoting Bartond (Reply 2):
I'm sure it's a viable route if AF flies a 744 on it

And an A380 in a year or two.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 11):
Interesting. I may be thinking of IB, didn't/don't they have a narrowbody operation in MIA? I remember distinctly seeing an AF A320 in MIA, I think I may be mixing it up with IB.

IB based a few MD-80s—and later, A319s—at MIA to provide onward connections to several destinations in Central America. When visas began to be required even for connecting passengers, IB dismantled the focus city and said Central American destinations gained their own nonstop flights to MAD.

AF currently uses one—soon to be two—A320s to link MIA with the French territories in the Caribbean.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26795 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4613 times:

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 3):
I guess I could see Corsair flying it maybe....maybe

I would see FLL as more likely given the nature of the business into the Miami area.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):

Crosair, but they focus almost entirely on leisure routes to French territories. They did use to fly to Oakland, California, but it was a stop on the way to Tahiti.

They also flew to Los Angeles for a very long time, carrying both local and through traffic on all 3 routes along the ORY-LAX-PPT route. The emergence of TN as a major competitor pushed them out.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4568 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
They also flew to Los Angeles for a very long time

...didn't they also fly to OAK?


25 GARUDAROD : SFO-MIA, LAX-MIA, and JFK-MIA will most certainly be the first flights Virgin America announce when they commence service to MIA next year some time.
26 N1120A : Yes, as noted earlier. Many will remember the September 1999 incursion involving a Corsair 747 at LAX.
27 MAH4546 : As I heard today: morning and evening departures to SFO; evening departure to LAX; morning, mid-day, and evening departures to JFK at launch; morning
28 Ikramerica : Bio-tech and medical companies.
29 ElmoTheHobo : Yup, ORY-OAK-PPT.
30 Post contains images Goldorak : not a CO code-share but a DL one on CDG-MIA MIA is not on the "priority" list of A380 destinations for AF (these are YUL, NRT, JFK, LAX). At the mome
31 Post contains links MAH4546 : Not this again. As it has been discussed many times, while it is certainly not a priority, and while I would not hold my breathe for it to happen in
32 Super80DFW : What other airlines have hubs there?
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