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Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo  
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16591 times:

Just read a report in the online version of German daily WELT that Russia has revoked the over flying rights for LH Cargo.
In return, the German Government cancelled the landing rights for Aeroflot Cargo and Airbridge Cargo in Germany,mainly affected are services to HHN and FRA.

We all know that Russia ignores the ICAO treaties and the Chicago convention for decades,. blackmailing over flying charges for the use of Russian airspace which by far exceed the cost of navigation and air traffic charges. The first and the second freedom does not exist for Russia but they happily siphon freight out of our markets by applying the 6th freedom and pay nothing for that.

Glad that Germany acted quickly on this and I hope that they did not only cancel the landing rights but the overflying rights as well. Let them fly to LUX via the North Sea, better even, the EU should stand together and cancel the over flying rights for SU cargo all together until they find back to legality.

.


Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
142 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5478 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16581 times:

This is the kind of thing which will kill the Superjet's chances of making it in the west. Putin's working on creating the USSR MKII. Is any company really going to put their company at risk on the whims of this guy?


What the...?
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16527 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 1):
This is the kind of thing which will kill the Superjet's chances of making it in the west. Putin's working on creating the USSR MKII. Is any company really going to put their company at risk on the whims of this guy?

Indeed, fully agreed on all counts. The Superjet does not stand a chance outside the Empire. I do hope that Germany stands firm on this matter and is joint by the EU. They should revoke the rights of SU cargo to overfly all of the EU and not permit them to land in LUX either.

Shippers and forwarders should stay away from using them.

.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16305 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter):
We all know that Russia ignores the ICAO treaties and the Chicago convention for decades,. blackmailing over flying charges for the use of Russian airspace which by far exceed the cost of navigation and air traffic charges. The first and the second freedom does not exist for Russia but they happily siphon freight out of our markets by applying the 6th freedom and pay nothing for that.

My question is: if Russia continues to ignore ICAO treaties, being a signatory country of those treaties, why haven't they been penalised for it? Why isn't the ICAO acting?

Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter):
Glad that Germany acted quickly on this and I hope that they did not only cancel the landing rights but the overflying rights as well. Let them fly to LUX via the North Sea, better even, the EU should stand together and cancel the over flying rights for SU cargo all together until they find back to legality.

 checkmark 

The way you're describing it, Russian airlines, SU in particular, should fly to a country they serve the way IF used to do when the DDR was still around. I fully agree with that. You revoke us overflight rights for whatever reason that can't be justified, and we'll revoke yours. We should show zero tolerance towards international blackmail like this. You should also be grateful that Angie is in power. For once in my life, I certainly am happy about that in light of this issue. Because, and that you can be assured of, this kind of thing wouldn't have happened if Schröder was still in power. I do not meant to make this thread anymore political than it already is, but think about it. Schröder would have done anything for Putin, making us look weak. Angie on the other hand has been much firmer with her handling of German-Russian relations, and this decision by the German Federal Government may be a result of that.

Also, two other things:

1. When the European Union bans an airline from operating and/or simply overflying European airspace, they do it for airworthiness reasons. Russia's move was for political reasons. Just to be clear on this, as there is the common misconception on EU airline bans being purely political.
2. In light of LCAG being "banned" from overflying Russia, could this force LH to re-start fuelstops in FAI?


User currently offlineJFK787NYC From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 16042 times:

Russia & Kazakhstan have been at odds lately as Kazakhstan has shown lately that they will not be told what to do from Russia. Kazakhstan has shown that Russia is not the boss anymore. After all Kazakhstan is a very very very rich country.

Now, 85% of my business is done out of Kazakhstan and all my cargo business is conducted by Lufthansa they have a virtually monopoly on the aircargo business their. This is truely very dissappointing.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 15859 times:

So, grant them the rights for LUX and no overflight of Germany, Belgium and France . Putin knows how to calculate risks, he is much smarter and more intelligent as most Western "leaders" - this really is a test for Angie...

User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5828 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 15766 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter):
We all know that Russia ignores the ICAO treaties and the Chicago convention for decades,

??? This seems to be a dispute over commerical rights, which is the one thing NOT covered by the Chicargo convention or any of the ICAO treaties. Sure the "Freedoms of the Air" are defined, but there is NO requirement for any party to grant any of them to another party. Commerical disputes are outside ICAO terms of reference.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14140 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15599 times:

Here is a link to the story (in German):
http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/articl...eilt_der_Lufthansa_Flugverbot.html


Jan


User currently offlineAither From South Korea, joined Oct 2004, 859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15488 times:

And another blow for Europe : it should not be Germany retaliating alone, it should be Europe.


Never trust the obvious
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15409 times:

Quoting Aither (Reply 8):
And another blow for Europe : it should not be Germany retaliating alone, it should be Europe.

Since this issue in particular affected only Germany and Lufthansa Cargo AG in this case, I can understand why it's only Germany and the LBA who's retailiating. However I can still imagine that this will become a matter of discussion in the EU, unless bureaucracy and individual political interests get in the way and put this issue into the backburner.

Interesting to note is that the article states that the EU and Russia have come to an agreement in late 2006 regarding those airspace and security charges, which would reduce those fees starting 2013, and it would enable Russia to join the WTO. However, it's almost November 2007 and Russia still hasn't signed that treaty. What is Russia taking so long to sign this treaty and reduce those airspace/security fees starting 2013 as agreed with the EU? Or have they changed their mind about it?

[Edited 2007-10-30 15:06:39]

User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 827 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 15363 times:

Quoting Aither (Reply 8):
And another blow for Europe : it should not be Germany retaliating alone, it should be Europe.

Yes, the whole EU as ONE should retaliate right away.



The Widget Air Line :)
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11719 posts, RR: 60
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 15282 times:

Quoting Jano (Reply 10):
Quoting Aither (Reply 8):
And another blow for Europe : it should not be Germany retaliating alone, it should be Europe.

Yes, the whole EU as ONE should retaliate right away.

So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market? It would cause absolute chaos, even if they only closed up for a couple of days. They by far have the upper hand in this situation, we really need to fly over them in order to reach most of the destinations in north and central Asia from Europe directly... let caution prevail, because in it's current buoyant fashion, Russia will not think twice about such a move.


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineAither From South Korea, joined Oct 2004, 859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 15269 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 9):
Since this issue in particular affected only Germany and Lufthansa Cargo AG in this case, I can understand why it's only Germany and the LBA who's retailiating.

The EU-US open sky was signed because the EU wants to end bilaterals agreements (that's against the constitution and blabla bla...). Already we are losing a lot with that deal but the only advantage was to gradually get a truely unique European sky. One the main advantages of having such a common policy is precisely to give each memberstate more power when facing issues LH is currently experiencing with Russia.



Never trust the obvious
User currently offlineAither From South Korea, joined Oct 2004, 859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 15242 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11):
So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market? It would cause absolute chaos, even if they only closed up for a couple of days. They by far have the upper hand in this situation, we really need to fly over them in order to reach most of the destinations in north and central Asia from Europe directly... let caution prevail, because in it's current buoyant fashion, Russia will not think twice about such a move.

For sure we should not be harsh but just show our "muscles"... and anyway now we have Emirates  Wink



Never trust the obvious
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11719 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 15202 times:

Quoting Aither (Reply 13):
For sure we should not be harsh but just show our "muscles"... and anyway now we have Emirates

Might not seem harsh to us - but from Russia's perspective it may well do. Emirates certainly wouldn't mind though, if it did happen they would be rolling in passengers!


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21589 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 15068 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11):
So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market?

But don't you see this as an attempt by Russia to show that the EU is not really united, that when it comes to things that could really damage other nations economically, the EU will let one country hang in the wind?

Don't for a minute think Putin is just in a dispute with Germany. Russia are trying to test the mettle of the EU, who couldn't pass a constitution so they just created a treaty via edict instead. There are cracks in the EU, and this is a test of your strength as a unified economic body.

If the answer is to "let Germany fight their fight, we are not involved" then you are lost. Sometimes taking a stand means financial hardship. If you aren't willing to take a stand that involves sacrifice, than what value is your union?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 15035 times:

Quoting Aither (Reply 12):
The EU-US open sky was signed because the EU wants to end bilaterals agreements (that's against the constitution and blabla bla...). Already we are losing a lot with that deal but the only advantage was to gradually get a truely unique European sky.

True, but the keyword here in "gradually". There is still not a single European sky, as the countries still have their own regulatory authorities and the individual countries still dictate who can fly in and out of the country. The EU-US Openskies, and before that the EU Openskies treaty are a start to unify European airspace and get rid of bilaterals between an EU country and a non-EU country. However, there are still many bilateral agreements between single countries, and in the case of Russia vs EU, I don't think there is an EU wide bilateral that regulates flights between Russia and the EU, much less an Openskies treaty between the two (correct me if I'm wrong). Thus, it is still up to the individual country, in this case Germany, to refuse traffic/overflight rights to Russia.

If the EU would follow Germany suit, also to press the issue of the reduction of the airspace fees, then so be it, but for now, I don't think that SU or Airbridge Cargo, the airlines affected, have any airworthiness issues that would lead to the EU blacklisting them. Plus, there may be the individual objection of another country of such a measure, so, unlike the banning of an airline or a country from landing/overflying the EU, it may be difficult at this stage to extend such a ban to the entire EU. For now, this is probably best handled by Germany individually. If others want to follow us suit, so be it.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11719 posts, RR: 60
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 14815 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
But don't you see this as an attempt by Russia to show that the EU is not really united, that when it comes to things that could really damage other nations economically, the EU will let one country hang in the wind?

Yes, it may well be, but myself, along with a very large proportion of the UK are against such a Constitution, treaty, call it what you like anyway, precisely because this is the kind of situation we don't want to be tied into, especially without a vote as to whether we want it or not...



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineBlueSkys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 14051 times:

I have not heard one person here say why Russia has revoked LH Cargo's right to overfly.... Why? What is their reason?

User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2660 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 13788 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 17):
Yes, it may well be, but myself, along with a very large proportion of the UK are against such a Constitution, treaty, call it what you like anyway, precisely because this is the kind of situation we don't want to be tied into, especially without a vote as to whether we want it or not...

Yes, that's exactly the reason why UK should leave the EU (and the EU markets and EU funds money) immediately. There is no free lunch. UK has it's free lunch for a pretty long time.


User currently offlineIwok From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13683 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
My question is: if Russia continues to ignore ICAO treaties, being a signatory country of those treaties, why haven't they been penalised for it? Why isn't the ICAO acting?

Because Russia doesn't give a damn about any of these treaties.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 5):
Putin knows how to calculate risks, he is much smarter and more intelligent as most Western "leaders" - this really is a test for Angie..

Very well said. He is muscle flex mode now, but I think all this will backfire and there will be a missle shield in Europe because of these rough actions by the Kremlin.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 9):
unless bureaucracy and individual political interests get in the way and put this issue into the backburner

Which unfortunately is what will happen. I have a hard time seeing the EU react in a quick and decisive manner on this issue.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
But don't you see this as an attempt by Russia to show that the EU is not really united

Exactly. What's needed here is for the EU to stand up and put an end to these shananigans. The problem is that Russia will suspend gas shipments or support for Iranian arms control. Its a very tricky move by Putin.

iwok


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11719 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13654 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 19):
UK has it's free lunch for a pretty long time.

Which is why we gave up part of our rebate and pay almost (IIRC) £5 billion net a year into the EU bodies... self evidently, far more than we actually get back, so I don't know how you can it a free lunch for us  

But this is divulging from the actual topic - I too would like to know what the reasoning was for banning LH Cargo?


Dan Smile

[Edited 2007-10-30 18:25:52]


...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineKalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 497 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13575 times:

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 18):
I have not heard one person here say why Russia has revoked LH Cargo's right to overfly.... Why? What is their reason?

The conflict is over airspace fees - LH says they're too high... I wonder did they plainly refused to pay?


User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 837 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13307 times:

The reason don't seem to be LH Cargo not paying the fees.

In a Spiegel article (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,514507,00.html in german) is stated that LH Cargo doesn't knows why the rights were revoked. They say it's now a political issue that should be solved by politicans, exactly the german goverment. It's also said that LH Cargo doesn't have a short term solution and that they will have to fly a 3 hour course around russian borders to their destinations in Astana and Taschkent.

Destinations in east asia aren't mentioned, perhaps because they fly to these destinations via the Arctic and countries south of russia...

It also written ("Der Spiegel" quoting "Die Welt") the dispute started because of the high fees, but nothing said about LH Cargo refusing to pay them. I don't think LHC would consider such a move because they say with the extra 3 hours and fuel burn it is cheaper for them to fly through russian airspace.

[Edited 2007-10-30 18:57:35]

[Edited 2007-10-30 18:58:55]

User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 827 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13220 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11):
So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market?

It would not be the first time we would have to fly around.

However, if EU does not act as one then Russia will play with each EU member state as a cat with mice. Chase and eat them one by one.



The Widget Air Line :)
25 Acheron : Too many knee-jerk reactions in this post, I'm glad none of you have any actual say in what course of action to take. Let the politicians deal with it
26 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : Russia (and previously the Soviet Union) has been extracting excessive overflight fees from airlines since the Trans-Siberian route to Asia was first
27 JAL : The EU should retaliate against Russia! Heck, the entire world should!
28 Scalebuilder : Is there a particular reason for why this only involves LH Cargo? Any more details at all? I find it rather odd that it would not affect LH or any ot
29 Post contains images TXKF2010 : And we all know "Kazakhstan Number One exporter of Potassium, all other countries have inferior Potassium" lol hahaha
30 MD11Engineer : and bend over every time they request it.... So you are finally paying what the other big EU countries have been doing for decades. This whole thing
31 Magyar : And this is what highlights the stupidity and shortsightedness of a very large proportion of the UK. They really think they are not "tied" into the s
32 Post contains images PlymSpotter : The rebate was given for several reasons; the UK was the third poorest nation in the EU at the time, and as the majority of fundings were spent on th
33 Post contains images Basefly : Today an Russian TU-160 long range bomber flew into Norwegian, British and Danish airspace, which prompted the 3 nations to scramble fighter jets and
34 Post contains images PlymSpotter : Yes, I do. I haven't heard about this yet, doesn't seem to be on the BBC (perhaps because these sorties are now quite common again), but an airspace
35 PanHAM : has been mentioned aölready - might be because LCAG refuses to pay part of the unjustified over flying charges. Another reason might be that Russia
36 Post contains links Basefly : Sorry only in Danish so far.....: http://jp.dk/indland/article1148823.ece
37 LTU932 : So basically, those €300 mio. are nothing but a subsidy for SU then? Doesn't ABC serve FRA instead of HHN? In theory, they could if they fly over D
38 PanHAM : That it is, de facto. SU could not sell the same low rates or they would have to increase their productivity, which, in that society, might be rather
39 LTU932 : Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. This probably means that the only way SU could serve LUX, is if LUX had a north-south runway. Like I said, such
40 PanHAM : Or they do sharp turns which will certainly not be on the LUX approach charts Fully agreed. During the 7 years of his Chancellorship, Schröder has m
41 MD11Engineer : No, only SU is flying to HHN regularly (and Volga-Dniepr, Tetis Air Cargo and Polet Air, plus some obscure airlines using AN-12s). I have never seen
42 Post contains images WILCO737 : Hey guys, thank god I am not flying over russia these days... I am in the south EAST of europe, so not even near Russia... This is all very sad I must
43 Post contains images WILCO737 : Just checked the LH Intranet for further information. We still fly via TSE (Astana) but the flights are delayed. I checked all our aircrafts and the l
44 Post contains images Glideslope : Time to wake up Europe. Remember who your friends really are. Putin is a megalomaniac, IMO. He is trying to influence domestic German politics. How? I
45 Stylo777 : is the belly load on commercial flights also affected by this revoke? LH sends often their A306's to SVO and they could carry a lot of cargo in their
46 Varig md-11 : agree when you think a Russian bank owns a percentage of Airbus and wants more of the capital, that's scary.... in another field it's quite interesti
47 Post contains images BCNGRO :    We should stop this now, first were the missiles pointing Europe, now we are banned from their airspace. We should act as a whole and revoke all
48 Post contains images PanHAM : This affects cargo flights only. So far, the passenger flights are operating normally. Same goes for LH pax flights overflying Russian airspace on th
49 Post contains images WILCO737 : Will this be the beginning of the next cold war? WILCO737 (MD11F)
50 Post contains images Macc : well, get this idiot out of your white house and chances are good that we will like you again On a more serious note: Putin is doing nothing else tha
51 L410Turbolet : Apples and oranges. Sure Putin will try to test the unity of the EU, play hardball more often than he used to when his buddies Chirac and Schroeder w
52 RussianJet : Bizarre thing to say - you're aware that other countries didn't want the stupid constitution too, right?? Also, please explain in what way the UK get
53 JFK787NYC : Lufthansa has their ASIAN Hub in Kazakhstan. All flights going to all Asian destinations stop their before going onward. This may very well be the rea
54 Post contains images WILCO737 : Not all, but 49 flights a week stop in TSE or ALA, but some flights go from Far East via India or SHJ back to Germany... We should start flights to F
55 PanHAM : That is exactly what I meant with this sentence. Of course this is a political issue, but we have to see how countries are run. Checks and balances w
56 JFK787NYC : Listening to people on this board just proves one thing, Some of you have no idea about politics and you should stick too the airplane hobby. Some of
57 MD11Engineer : I have been passing HHN an hour or so ago, there was one lonely SU DC-10 parked on the apron. It might have arrived before the ban was declared and le
58 Danny : He does that all the time. The only way for EU to go is to take united stance against it.
59 PanHAM : Not quite . The UK went almost bankrupt because Mr. Cargill and his likes tried to rule the country, Mrs. T solved that and she also got her money ba
60 Sh0rtybr0wn : This is sad. Its been about 10 + years of trade and better relations between Russia and western Europe; doing business, making money, travelling witho
61 Kalvado : So did it fly INTO national airspace (that would make the news), or it was legally flying in the INTERNATIONAL airspace? It's pretty much like saying
62 GlobeEx : NEWS: Apparently SU is again allowed to fly to HHN and therefore over German territory..... pretty strange indeed.... So that might hint that could re
63 GlobeEx : NEWS: Apparently SU is again allowed to fly to HHN and therefore over German territory..... pretty strange indeed.... So that might hint that it could
64 TP313 : Putin is just playing the very same game of "divide and rule" the US has played with the EU ever since the cold war ended to prevent it becoming a cr
65 L410Turbolet : Obviously you have no clue what I was talking about otherwise you'd save yourself the energy to make such absurdly ass-inine comparisons. You mean li
66 JFK787NYC : What are you people talking about US Satellite States? What does Europe do for the United States? Have any of you seen all the bombings that were goin
67 RussianJet : Apart from the bit about nobody respecting one another (I for one love many European countries and certainly respect all of them), you're spot-on the
68 Kalvado : Grows interesting by the minute.. now Russian authorities say that LH was flying with TEMPORARY permit, which expired on October 27th, and LH didn't a
69 Bennett123 : Glidescope You say "IMO. He is trying to influence domestic German politics. How? I'm not sure". How can you reach this conclusion. David
70 TP313 : Things don't get much more asinine than this quote... Since the EU has, sometimes reluctantly, some times willingly, played the pawn of the US in the
71 Hmmmm... : The Cold War was never over. Only the naive ever talked like that. The arms race may have been dormant for awhile, but the Cold War kept on.
72 Post contains images WILCO737 : Sad, really sad.... Interesting how this discussion developed... I guess nobody of us know WHY exactly the rights were revoked... Its all just specil
73 PanHAM : FAZ reports that the overflying rights of LH Cargo expired Oct 27 and that a new application must be made. I doubt that a well run airline like LH Car
74 YOWza : They are going to go one step too far very soon. When that happens the weight of the world will come down on them. Russian airspace is vital to many p
75 TP313 : I'm old enough for having still lived under a dictatorship, and our NATO allies did nothing about it for sake of not rocking the boat while the Cold
76 FlyingAY : However, this is not as simple as this. If AY would lose rights to fly over Russia, it would basically end the operations of that airline as all the
77 Post contains images JoFMO : I would like to cite the wise Mr De Gaulle: 'Countries don't have have friend, they have interests". That sums it up pretty well from my point of vie
78 Post contains images Qantas744ER : Sorry Vladimir but you have just destroyed the smallest chance of your countries Sukhoi SSJ100 ever selling one frame to germany... Too bad BTW many i
79 PanHAM : contrary to what happened in Hungary or Czechoslovakia (or in East Berlin June 17,1951) , the Western World encouraged the political change from dict
80 Post contains images GECMD11 : Bring back FAI
81 Post contains images WILCO737 : I'd love to! but its not my decision Never been there! But I hope FAI will come back WILCO737 (MD11F)
82 PanAm1971 : The reason don't seem to be LH Cargo not paying the fees. It's a good bet this is not about fees but rather payoffs. I was in Russia for a month not
83 Frostbite : Right on, amen brother! I know quite a few flight crew members that loved layovers in FAI...even in winter! Lufty's departure to Astana was a big los
84 Post contains images WILCO737 : ALL LH Cargo Pilots want FAI back! nobody actually likes the Astana stops... We all hope every day to get back to FAI... The sooner the better WILCO7
85 Post contains images PanAm1971 : well, get this idiot out of your white house and chances are good that we will like you again On a more serious note: Putin is doing nothing else than
86 PanAm1971 : Finally got the quote system. Nice. Anyhoo, after having been there-I do not repeat DO NOT think Russia is headed back to USSR MkII. Putin may well b
87 Gearup380 : Would DEL be an alternative for LH as a hub between Europe and the Far East?
88 Post contains images PanHAM : Anyway, looks like the diplomatic channels are on high power and this should be solved probably even within today. Still, it is one more reason never
89 PanAm1971 : Complete and absolute bovine scatology. If there is any reticence in the US about the EU, it is the number of voices spouting vitriol like this.
90 Post contains images WILCO737 : We are using SHJ already for some flights to far east... In DEL there is a lot of traffic and I think not so easy to get a lot of slots there... But
91 TP313 : Tell that to the dissidents he send to the Tarrafal concentration camp in the islands of Cape Verde. Tell that to Humberto Delgado that Salazar had t
92 Post contains images Basefly : As i understand they very fast heading for the national airspaces of the 3 countries, as if the would breach the boundaries. They were advised to tur
93 Xtoler : I think it's already started shortly after Rasputin, I mean, Putin showed up on the scene. I was thinking the exact same thing. Talk about calling th
94 PanAm1971 : One would hope that most people in Portugal take responsibility for their country's course and not look for American boogymen behind every tree. I th
95 TP313 : Read "Rebuilding America's Defenses" (PNAC, 2000) by, among others, the infamous I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby where it is stated that the US foreign and
96 PanHAM : TP313 - I am not one3 sided, but you should read the black book of communism. Back to the topic - I should have read the news first - Mr. Beck, leader
97 Post contains images Basefly : You might be right, but all i am saying is that Russia is really acting hostile towards small nations like Denmark and Norway without provocation, th
98 GECMD11 : i speak to allot of LCAG crews and ,i haven't heard one of them wanting to go to Astana. They all seam to miss FAI very badly.......TSE is referred t
99 TP313 : It is not responsability that is at issue here. the issue is that US foreign policy in Europe is guided exclusively by US (absolutely legitimate) geo
100 PanAm1971 : The US government does not come down to a few men... no matter how much one may wish it so as to fill their world view. While I have not read the art
101 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : If that would be rigorouly enforced I'm afraid we would miss out on gems like these: As answered before, the EU started as a steel and coal community
102 PanAm1971 : My grandfather-under pres Eisenhower-helped build the NATO framework. Believe me, there were many voices saying it was not in the interests of the US
103 PanAm1971 : Actually, none of the anti-American view you are displaying here are "the issue here." The topic at hand has to do with a problem LH is having in Rus
104 Post contains images TP313 : Hi BuyantUkhaa! Nice to meet you here! (at last) I share your scepticism about the new treaty, it is just typical Sarkozy gesturing, like when he wen
105 Post contains images BlueSkys : Yess, lets bomb them now!!! and, lets build bomb shelters in our back yard and start another cold war! Yuppie! Lets all run and hide from the Iranian
106 JoeCanuck : You, my friend, have brought up a very good point; Nobodys hands are clean. Every country collaborates with criminals and tyrants if it suits their n
107 LTU932 : Officially: LH did not reapply for overflight rights through Russia after their current rights expired. Off the record: LH is accused of not paying t
108 Hmmmm... : Wow, that has to be the most left-wing radical, off the wall rant on airliners.net in a long time. Maybe ever.
109 BuyantUkhaa : Igualmente!
110 Xtoler : Only if you're in the limelight of the rightwing side of our so called unbiased media. I've had the honor to work with your logistics branch of your
111 PanAm1971 : All I can say is; take a trip there. It's a real eye opener. Worth it! Worth it! Worth it!
112 Post contains images WILCO737 : Ok, guys, Information directly from LH Cargo Operations in Frankfurt: We just got revoked SOME of the overflight rights! Our flight: LEJ-HKG was still
113 Xtoler : See, maybe this is just about business. This was a tantalizing thread though. I enjoyed every minute of it. Too bad T313 left. Enjoyed the conspiracy
114 TP313 : Hi Xtoler, I have to go, but before I do, I'll quickly reply to you. I have no problem whatsoever with americans, those that I know are very nice peop
115 Post contains images PanAm1971 : You're welcome Larry! Semper Fi! Had a blast. Wish I could do it again!
116 BlueSkys : I do not see how advocating diplomacy is radical... Actually its not radical at all... And i am not left wing, I sit snuggly in the center. Here is a
117 Magyar : Although I could only guess which countries you meant but I have to disagree on this. In the case of these mystery countries I would rather call it '
118 PanAm1971 : You fail to understand the complex mix of interest and moral imperative that drive most (pre-Bush) US foreign policy decisions. It is never just one
119 Magyar : Well, I do think that GB is the most "Eurosceptical" engine of Europe. Personally, I am for an integrated Europe and not for that 'loose free trade'
120 MD11Engineer : One thing is if the do reconnaisance flights just outside foreign national airspace, but the other thing is if they carry cruise missiles while doing
121 MD11Engineer : Correction: It wasn't a Tu-160, but a Tu-22. Jan
122 Hmmmm... : You know what you are. Advocating diplomacy is not calling America a dictatorship and Iran a peaceful country. That is just right out of Hugo Chavez'
123 Post contains links Caspritz78 : Back to the real topic of this thread: Spiegel Online http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,514890,00.html (only in German) has an article about thi
124 LTU932 : As I said in the other thread, this is extortion. LCAG should not be forced to move to KJA just because they're upset about TSE being LH's choice for
125 Xtoler : Russia is hard up for cash. After years of a "Peoples Economy" and a leader with no economic background, what the hell you think is going to happen? A
126 MD11Engineer : Well, on the other hand Aeroflot is about the only counterweight HHN airport company has against the almighty Ryanair. Jan
127 Post contains images Leskova : Which doesn't even come close to justifying getting SU Cargo's ban lifted...
128 PanHAM : Right. Caving in and returing the traffic rights to SU less than 24 hrs later is an unbelievable scandal. They should have kept this ace in the hand
129 Post contains images LTU932 :    It's an outrage that total idiots like Beck and Tiefensee basically give foreign SU a free pass, while our very own LCAG is paying the price for
130 Post contains links LTU932 : Was it this one: http://www.faz.net/s/Rub7FC5BF30C45B...1548F75~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html BTW: Welcome to my respected user's list!
131 Post contains links MD11Engineer : I fully agree with the FAZ editorial. It seems that Beck has stayed a provincial politician who only thinks about his home state, not about the countr
132 LTU932 : " target=_blank>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/...6.stm It's solved alright, even though the Russians have gotten what they want: LCAG has to mov
133 Nycaross : Perhaps it is time to bring back the Romanovs to rule Russia.
134 Nycaross : And elect Edmund Stoiber as Chancellor of Germany.
135 MD11Engineer : Forget about this wanker. The problem is that you get the pragmatic and centrist Merkel only together with rightwing loons like Stoiber. Jan
136 A342 : Did anyone notice this? Typo here?
137 LTU932 : A CSU party member as chancellor is as likely as Franz-Josef Strauß coming back from the dead. It ain't gonna happen.
138 MD11Engineer : The CSU is even more state centered (after all it's homebase is Bavaria) than Beck. For them Bavaria comes first. Jan
139 Post contains images BlueSkys : Bravo for interpreting my post correctly  [Edited 2007-11-03 13:14:55]
140 Bozo : seems like the german government is going to handle it?
141 PanHAM : It doesn't say which date that newsclip was aired. But the pictures of 742Fs speak for the quality of the news room. Tyüical. Anyway, latest word is
142 LTU932 : To me it seems that this was from about a day after LCAG got its rights banned. Good. It reaffirms my, and other people's confidence in LCAG and in g
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