PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3750 posts, RR: 14 Posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13799 times:
Just read a report in the online version of German daily WELT that Russia has revoked the over flying rights for LH Cargo.
In return, the German Government cancelled the landing rights for Aeroflot Cargo and Airbridge Cargo in Germany,mainly affected are services to HHN and FRA.
We all know that Russia ignores the ICAO treaties and the Chicago convention for decades,. blackmailing over flying charges for the use of Russian airspace which by far exceed the cost of navigation and air traffic charges. The first and the second freedom does not exist for Russia but they happily siphon freight out of our markets by applying the 6th freedom and pay nothing for that.
Glad that Germany acted quickly on this and I hope that they did not only cancel the landing rights but the overflying rights as well. Let them fly to LUX via the North Sea, better even, the EU should stand together and cancel the over flying rights for SU cargo all together until they find back to legality.
.
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
JoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 1601 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13789 times:
This is the kind of thing which will kill the Superjet's chances of making it in the west. Putin's working on creating the USSR MKII. Is any company really going to put their company at risk on the whims of this guy?
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3750 posts, RR: 14 Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13735 times:
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 1): This is the kind of thing which will kill the Superjet's chances of making it in the west. Putin's working on creating the USSR MKII. Is any company really going to put their company at risk on the whims of this guy?
Indeed, fully agreed on all counts. The Superjet does not stand a chance outside the Empire. I do hope that Germany stands firm on this matter and is joint by the EU. They should revoke the rights of SU cargo to overfly all of the EU and not permit them to land in LUX either.
Shippers and forwarders should stay away from using them.
.
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 12086 posts, RR: 57 Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13513 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter): We all know that Russia ignores the ICAO treaties and the Chicago convention for decades,. blackmailing over flying charges for the use of Russian airspace which by far exceed the cost of navigation and air traffic charges. The first and the second freedom does not exist for Russia but they happily siphon freight out of our markets by applying the 6th freedom and pay nothing for that.
My question is: if Russia continues to ignore ICAO treaties, being a signatory country of those treaties, why haven't they been penalised for it? Why isn't the ICAO acting?
Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter): Glad that Germany acted quickly on this and I hope that they did not only cancel the landing rights but the overflying rights as well. Let them fly to LUX via the North Sea, better even, the EU should stand together and cancel the over flying rights for SU cargo all together until they find back to legality.
The way you're describing it, Russian airlines, SU in particular, should fly to a country they serve the way IF used to do when the DDR was still around. I fully agree with that. You revoke us overflight rights for whatever reason that can't be justified, and we'll revoke yours. We should show zero tolerance towards international blackmail like this. You should also be grateful that Angie is in power. For once in my life, I certainly am happy about that in light of this issue. Because, and that you can be assured of, this kind of thing wouldn't have happened if Schröder was still in power. I do not meant to make this thread anymore political than it already is, but think about it. Schröder would have done anything for Putin, making us look weak. Angie on the other hand has been much firmer with her handling of German-Russian relations, and this decision by the German Federal Government may be a result of that.
Also, two other things:
1. When the European Union bans an airline from operating and/or simply overflying European airspace, they do it for airworthiness reasons. Russia's move was for political reasons. Just to be clear on this, as there is the common misconception on EU airline bans being purely political.
2. In light of LCAG being "banned" from overflying Russia, could this force LH to re-start fuelstops in FAI?
Zu fettigem Käse und kalorienreicher Kunstmarmelade, nehme ich einen Doppelkorn.
JFK787NYC From United States, joined Apr 2007, 676 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13250 times:
Russia & Kazakhstan have been at odds lately as Kazakhstan has shown lately that they will not be told what to do from Russia. Kazakhstan has shown that Russia is not the boss anymore. After all Kazakhstan is a very very very rich country.
Now, 85% of my business is done out of Kazakhstan and all my cargo business is conducted by Lufthansa they have a virtually monopoly on the aircargo business their. This is truely very dissappointing.
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 1571 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13067 times:
So, grant them the rights for LUX and no overflight of Germany, Belgium and France . Putin knows how to calculate risks, he is much smarter and more intelligent as most Western "leaders" - this really is a test for Angie...
Gemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 3037 posts, RR: 5 Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 12974 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter): We all know that Russia ignores the ICAO treaties and the Chicago convention for decades,
??? This seems to be a dispute over commerical rights, which is the one thing NOT covered by the Chicargo convention or any of the ICAO treaties. Sure the "Freedoms of the Air" are defined, but there is NO requirement for any party to grant any of them to another party. Commerical disputes are outside ICAO terms of reference.
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 12086 posts, RR: 57 Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12617 times:
Quoting Aither (Reply 8): And another blow for Europe : it should not be Germany retaliating alone, it should be Europe.
Since this issue in particular affected only Germany and Lufthansa Cargo AG in this case, I can understand why it's only Germany and the LBA who's retailiating. However I can still imagine that this will become a matter of discussion in the EU, unless bureaucracy and individual political interests get in the way and put this issue into the backburner.
Interesting to note is that the article states that the EU and Russia have come to an agreement in late 2006 regarding those airspace and security charges, which would reduce those fees starting 2013, and it would enable Russia to join the WTO. However, it's almost November 2007 and Russia still hasn't signed that treaty. What is Russia taking so long to sign this treaty and reduce those airspace/security fees starting 2013 as agreed with the EU? Or have they changed their mind about it?
[Edited 2007-10-30 15:06:39]
Zu fettigem Käse und kalorienreicher Kunstmarmelade, nehme ich einen Doppelkorn.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 7847 posts, RR: 65 Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12490 times:
Quoting Jano (Reply 10): Quoting Aither (Reply 8):
And another blow for Europe : it should not be Germany retaliating alone, it should be Europe.
Yes, the whole EU as ONE should retaliate right away.
So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market? It would cause absolute chaos, even if they only closed up for a couple of days. They by far have the upper hand in this situation, we really need to fly over them in order to reach most of the destinations in north and central Asia from Europe directly... let caution prevail, because in it's current buoyant fashion, Russia will not think twice about such a move.
Aither From France, joined Oct 2004, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12477 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 9): Since this issue in particular affected only Germany and Lufthansa Cargo AG in this case, I can understand why it's only Germany and the LBA who's retailiating.
The EU-US open sky was signed because the EU wants to end bilaterals agreements (that's against the constitution and blabla bla...). Already we are losing a lot with that deal but the only advantage was to gradually get a truely unique European sky. One the main advantages of having such a common policy is precisely to give each memberstate more power when facing issues LH is currently experiencing with Russia.
Aither From France, joined Oct 2004, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12450 times:
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11): So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market? It would cause absolute chaos, even if they only closed up for a couple of days. They by far have the upper hand in this situation, we really need to fly over them in order to reach most of the destinations in north and central Asia from Europe directly... let caution prevail, because in it's current buoyant fashion, Russia will not think twice about such a move.
For sure we should not be harsh but just show our "muscles"... and anyway now we have Emirates
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 7847 posts, RR: 65 Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12410 times:
Quoting Aither (Reply 13): For sure we should not be harsh but just show our "muscles"... and anyway now we have Emirates
Might not seem harsh to us - but from Russia's perspective it may well do. Emirates certainly wouldn't mind though, if it did happen they would be rolling in passengers!
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18390 posts, RR: 59 Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12276 times:
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11): So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market?
But don't you see this as an attempt by Russia to show that the EU is not really united, that when it comes to things that could really damage other nations economically, the EU will let one country hang in the wind?
Don't for a minute think Putin is just in a dispute with Germany. Russia are trying to test the mettle of the EU, who couldn't pass a constitution so they just created a treaty via edict instead. There are cracks in the EU, and this is a test of your strength as a unified economic body.
If the answer is to "let Germany fight their fight, we are not involved" then you are lost. Sometimes taking a stand means financial hardship. If you aren't willing to take a stand that involves sacrifice, than what value is your union?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 12086 posts, RR: 57 Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12243 times:
Quoting Aither (Reply 12): The EU-US open sky was signed because the EU wants to end bilaterals agreements (that's against the constitution and blabla bla...). Already we are losing a lot with that deal but the only advantage was to gradually get a truely unique European sky.
True, but the keyword here in "gradually". There is still not a single European sky, as the countries still have their own regulatory authorities and the individual countries still dictate who can fly in and out of the country. The EU-US Openskies, and before that the EU Openskies treaty are a start to unify European airspace and get rid of bilaterals between an EU country and a non-EU country. However, there are still many bilateral agreements between single countries, and in the case of Russia vs EU, I don't think there is an EU wide bilateral that regulates flights between Russia and the EU, much less an Openskies treaty between the two (correct me if I'm wrong). Thus, it is still up to the individual country, in this case Germany, to refuse traffic/overflight rights to Russia.
If the EU would follow Germany suit, also to press the issue of the reduction of the airspace fees, then so be it, but for now, I don't think that SU or Airbridge Cargo, the airlines affected, have any airworthiness issues that would lead to the EU blacklisting them. Plus, there may be the individual objection of another country of such a measure, so, unlike the banning of an airline or a country from landing/overflying the EU, it may be difficult at this stage to extend such a ban to the entire EU. For now, this is probably best handled by Germany individually. If others want to follow us suit, so be it.
Zu fettigem Käse und kalorienreicher Kunstmarmelade, nehme ich einen Doppelkorn.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 7847 posts, RR: 65 Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 12023 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15): But don't you see this as an attempt by Russia to show that the EU is not really united, that when it comes to things that could really damage other nations economically, the EU will let one country hang in the wind?
Yes, it may well be, but myself, along with a very large proportion of the UK are against such a Constitution, treaty, call it what you like anyway, precisely because this is the kind of situation we don't want to be tied into, especially without a vote as to whether we want it or not...
WildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 1627 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10996 times:
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 17): Yes, it may well be, but myself, along with a very large proportion of the UK are against such a Constitution, treaty, call it what you like anyway, precisely because this is the kind of situation we don't want to be tied into, especially without a vote as to whether we want it or not...
Yes, that's exactly the reason why UK should leave the EU (and the EU markets and EU funds money) immediately. There is no free lunch. UK has it's free lunch for a pretty long time.
Iwok From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1096 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10891 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3): My question is: if Russia continues to ignore ICAO treaties, being a signatory country of those treaties, why haven't they been penalised for it? Why isn't the ICAO acting?
Because Russia doesn't give a damn about any of these treaties.
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 5): Putin knows how to calculate risks, he is much smarter and more intelligent as most Western "leaders" - this really is a test for Angie..
Very well said. He is muscle flex mode now, but I think all this will backfire and there will be a missle shield in Europe because of these rough actions by the Kremlin.
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 9): unless bureaucracy and individual political interests get in the way and put this issue into the backburner
Which unfortunately is what will happen. I have a hard time seeing the EU react in a quick and decisive manner on this issue.
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15): But don't you see this as an attempt by Russia to show that the EU is not really united
Exactly. What's needed here is for the EU to stand up and put an end to these shananigans. The problem is that Russia will suspend gas shipments or support for Iranian arms control. Its a very tricky move by Putin.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 7847 posts, RR: 65 Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10862 times:
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 19): UK has it's free lunch for a pretty long time.
Which is why we gave up part of our rebate and pay almost (IIRC) £5 billion net a year into the EU bodies... self evidently, far more than we actually get back, so I don't know how you can it a free lunch for us
But this is divulging from the actual topic - I too would like to know what the reasoning was for banning LH Cargo?
CARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 373 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10515 times:
The reason don't seem to be LH Cargo not paying the fees.
In a Spiegel article (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,514507,00.html in german) is stated that LH Cargo doesn't knows why the rights were revoked. They say it's now a political issue that should be solved by politicans, exactly the german goverment. It's also said that LH Cargo doesn't have a short term solution and that they will have to fly a 3 hour course around russian borders to their destinations in Astana and Taschkent.
Destinations in east asia aren't mentioned, perhaps because they fly to these destinations via the Arctic and countries south of russia...
It also written ("Der Spiegel" quoting "Die Welt") the dispute started because of the high fees, but nothing said about LH Cargo refusing to pay them. I don't think LHC would consider such a move because they say with the extra 3 hours and fuel burn it is cheaper for them to fly through russian airspace.
Jano From Slovak Republic, joined Jan 2004, 775 posts, RR: 9 Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10428 times:
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11): So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market?
It would not be the first time we would have to fly around.
However, if EU does not act as one then Russia will play with each EU member state as a cat with mice. Chase and eat them one by one.
Acheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 828 posts, RR: 2 Reply 25, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10343 times:
Too many knee-jerk reactions in this post, I'm glad none of you have any actual say in what course of action to take.
Let the politicians deal with it instead of just going around bashing countries.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 10642 posts, RR: 9 Reply 26, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11007 times:
Quoting Kalvado (Reply 22): The conflict is over airspace fees - LH says they're too high...
Russia (and previously the Soviet Union) has been extracting excessive overflight fees from airlines since the Trans-Siberian route to Asia was first opened to foreign carriers in the 1970s. But since that route is so much shorter than any other routing to places like Japan and Korea etc., airlines have been willing to pay.
For the first few years, foreign airlines were required to operate jointly with Aeroflot using SU aircraft, which is why the SU Tu-114 below has JAL identification on the forward fuselage.
Scalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 28, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10833 times:
Quoting CARST (Reply 23): The reason don't seem to be LH Cargo not paying the fees.
Is there a particular reason for why this only involves LH Cargo? Any more details at all? I find it rather odd that it would not affect LH or any other German carrier as well.
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 9): However, it's almost November 2007 and Russia still hasn't signed that treaty. What is Russia taking so long to sign this treaty and reduce those airspace/security fees starting 2013 as agreed with the EU? Or have they changed their mind about it?
I can only wonder about this as well.
This may not even be much of an issue that you would typically find in Vladimir Putin's inbox. Not yet. However, Russia is turning somewhat "hardball" on the EU and the US alike. We see a significant increase in military patrols undertaken by the Russians in Europe (much like in the Cold War days). I do not believe it is the fee charged at stake, but a showdown for the right amount of respect for the player (Russia that is).
Quoting Acheron (Reply 25): Let the politicians deal with it instead of just going around bashing countries.
Your post is good, but it does strike a fine line. It will be tough to leave politics, national positions, and the following rederick out of this. This smells like a political decision negatively affecting free enterprise. You will simply have to allow a discussion of both.
TXKF2010 From Bermuda, joined Nov 2005, 121 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10749 times:
Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 4): Russia & Kazakhstan have been at odds lately as Kazakhstan has shown lately that they will not be told what to do from Russia. Kazakhstan has shown that Russia is not the boss anymore. After all Kazakhstan is a very very very rich country.
Now, 85% of my business is done out of Kazakhstan and all my cargo business is conducted by Lufthansa they have a virtually monopoly on the aircargo business their. This is truely very dissappointing
And we all know "Kazakhstan Number One exporter of Potassium, all other countries have inferior Potassium" lol hahaha
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 10336 posts, RR: 66 Reply 30, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10490 times:
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11): So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market? It would cause absolute chaos, even if they only closed up for a couple of days. They by far have the upper hand in this situation, we really need to fly over them in order to reach most of the destinations in north and central Asia from Europe directly... let caution prevail, because in it's current buoyant fashion, Russia will not think twice about such a move.
Dan Smile
and bend over every time they request it....
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 21): Which is why we gave up part of our rebate and pay almost (IIRC) £5 billion net a year into the EU bodies... self evidently, far more than we actually get back, so I don't know how you can it a free lunch for us
So you are finally paying what the other big EU countries have been doing for decades.
This whole thing has personal implications for me (jobwise), but I think it is necessary not to give in.
Magyar From Hungary, joined Feb 2000, 561 posts, RR: 0 Reply 31, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10407 times:
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 17): Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
But don't you see this as an attempt by Russia to show that the EU is not really united, that when it comes to things that could really damage other nations economically, the EU will let one country hang in the wind?
Yes, it may well be, but myself, along with a very large proportion of the UK are against such a Constitution, treaty, call it what you like anyway, precisely because this is the kind of situation we don't want to be tied into, especially without a vote as to whether we want it or not...
And this is what highlights the stupidity and shortsightedness of a very large proportion of the UK. They really
think they are not "tied" into the situation if they don't get "involved". You may not be kicked around for the time
being but you are next. These people should wake up from their imperial hangover and realize that GB is no more
no less important and powerful than any other European "medium"-sized country (i.e. Germany, France).
And if they want to be successful in today's and especially tomorrow's political scene of the World they need to
pool together their weight.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 7847 posts, RR: 65 Reply 32, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10177 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30): So you are finally paying what the other big EU countries have been doing for decades.
The rebate was given for several reasons; the UK was the third poorest nation in the EU at the time, and as the majority of fundings were spent on the CAP very little would have been reinvested into the UK as farming made/makes up a smaller proportion of our overall GDP than other major member states. Circumstances change, as has our contribution. That though is another topic of conversation completely.
Quoting Magyar (Reply 31): And this is what highlights the stupidity and shortsightedness of a very large proportion of the UK. They really
think they are not "tied" into the situation if they don't get "involved". You may not be kicked around for the time
being but you are next. These people should wake up from their imperial hangover and realize that GB is no more
no less important and powerful than any other European "medium"-sized country (i.e. Germany, France).
And if they want to be successful in today's and especially tomorrow's political scene of the World they need to
pool together their weight.
I feel I may have slightly misphrased what I meant to say. What we want a choice in is the matter of our country signing up to the constitution, or not, especially when many of these kinds of decisions are going to have an implication on us, such as this potential situation. It seems a vote may be called in the UK; its now being called 'inevitable' by some ministers.
Before we carry on talking about the situation, and how Britain will get 'kicked around next time' it would be most useful to know exactly what has caused this one. Jumping to a conclusion and saying Europe has to react as a whole is a very premature response... facts need to be assessed, that's why I said caution needs to be exercised and not start jumping to conclusions, automatically assuming that Europe as a whole should stop all Russian airlines overflying it's territory is only going to make things far, far worse and seriously damage relations between the two powers. For all we know it could have been something done purely by LH Cargo.
Basefly From Denmark, joined Apr 2007, 196 posts, RR: 0 Reply 33, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9923 times:
Today an Russian TU-160 long range bomber flew into Norwegian, British and Danish airspace, which prompted the 3 nations to scramble fighter jets and rendezvous with the TU-160 and turn it away.
Analysts say it is an political move by Putin, to show strength in the upcoming elections.
Anybody else starting to think that Russia is going back to the old scary days.......?
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 7847 posts, RR: 65 Reply 34, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 9824 times:
Quoting Basefly (Reply 33): Anybody else starting to think that Russia is going back to the old scary days.......?
Yes, I do. I haven't heard about this yet, doesn't seem to be on the BBC (perhaps because these sorties are now quite common again), but an airspace infringement by the Russian military is indeed cause for concern. Do you have a link?
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3750 posts, RR: 14 Reply 35, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days ago) and read 9453 times:
Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 28):
Is there a particular reason for why this only involves LH Cargo? Any more details at all? I find it rather odd that it would not affect LH or any other German carrier as well.
has been mentioned aölready - might be because LCAG refuses to pay part of the unjustified over flying charges. Another reason might be that Russia does not like LCAG's decision to use Astana in Kazakhstan as their hub. May be Don Putin wants to make LCAG an offere they cannot refusa, make Omsk or Novosibirsk their hub.
It is all about unfair competition and it is about time that an airline resists to pay the ransom for the right to short cut on the far east destinations. Russia has collected about 300 Million € for this oin the past year. This goes into Aeroflots pockets, Amazingly, the "profit" of SU is a bit lower than this figure. Which means, the competitors are paying more than the profit and SU can pilfer in their markets.
Fishing in the neighbours pond is perfetcly alright, as long as everyone is treated equal. This is not the case here, LCAG does not complain over their higher cost base related to SU or Air Bridge Cargo. No problem.- But operating 33 D10 flights per week out of HHN (+++what ABC has) without having to pay over flying charges is simply not OK.
I am surprised that the German Government reacted that quickly and I hope that they stand firm. They should indeed revoke SU's overflying rights, not just the landing rights in HHN for their cargo ops. No able to verfly Germany means that they cannot land in LUX either. Period. They can go to BEG and truck from there, Have fun.
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 12086 posts, RR: 57 Reply 37, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9108 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35): It is all about unfair competition and it is about time that an airline resists to pay the ransom for the right to short cut on the far east destinations. Russia has collected about 300 Million € for this oin the past year. This goes into Aeroflots pockets, Amazingly, the "profit" of SU is a bit lower than this figure. Which means, the competitors are paying more than the profit and SU can pilfer in their markets.
So basically, those €300 mio. are nothing but a subsidy for SU then?
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35): But operating 33 D10 flights per week out of HHN (+++what ABC has) without having to pay over flying charges is simply not OK.
Doesn't ABC serve FRA instead of HHN?
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35): No able to verfly Germany means that they cannot land in LUX either.
In theory, they could if they fly over Denmark, then through the Netherlands and Belgium and from over Brussels due south to LUX. I made a basic routing of such a flight in the Great Circle Mapper and used BLL, AMS, and BRU as intermediate points between SVO and LUX, which in theory bypasses in the most inconvenient way Germany. In terms of still air distance, it would increase still air distance (from the direct routing) from 1192 nm about 290 nm (probably around 35-40 minutes more flight time) to 1402 nm.
For LCAG, it looks a bit different. FRA-TSE basically overflies the heart of Western Russia. To bypass it, LCAG may have to add over 1000 nm or something around 2.5 hours more flight time to its routing. A hypothetical detour to TSE could be using IST and THR as reference point, going through the south, which according to the Great Circle Mapper, would be a 3379 nm still air distance routing (almost the same distance as if it was a transatlantic hop to NYC), while the direct route is 2335 nm still air distance (roughly 300 nm less than FRA-SHJ). So, unless the EU outright bans SU from flying into European Airspace, SU Cargo is luckier in that sense than LCAG because they just have to add a little bit more distance compared to what LCAG has to add. Or simply put: what SU has to add in terms of distance is peanuts compared to what LH has to add. Time is money, especially in logistics, and despite the actions from the LBA and the Federal Government, LCAG is still the big loser in this "standoff".
[Edited 2007-10-31 00:44:42]
Zu fettigem Käse und kalorienreicher Kunstmarmelade, nehme ich einen Doppelkorn.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3750 posts, RR: 14 Reply 38, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8995 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 37): So basically, those €300 mio. are nothing but a subsidy for SU then?
That it is, de facto. SU could not sell the same low rates or they would have to increase their productivity, which, in that society, might be rather difficult. Extorting monies from the competition is the easy way to be profitable.
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 37):
Doesn't ABC serve FRA instead of HHN?
Both, I guess
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 37): In theory, they could if they fly over Denmark, then through the Netherlands and Belgium and from over Brussels due south to LUX. I made a basic routing of suc
approaching LUX from the east you go on finals over Trier. Approaching LUX from the west, a go around would over fly Germany. Taking off from the west, same. LUX cannot be operated avoiding German airspace.
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 37): peanuts compared to what LH has to add. Time is money, especially in logistics, and despite the actions from the LBA and the Federal Government, LCAG is still the big loser in this "standoff
obviously yes, but if they pull this through, aviation is the winner. I do hope that the German Government takes a firm stand on this and gets supported by the EU as well.
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 12086 posts, RR: 57 Reply 39, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8922 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38): approaching LUX from the east you go on finals over Trier. Approaching LUX from the west, a go around would over fly Germany. Taking off from the west, same. LUX cannot be operated avoiding German airspace.
Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. This probably means that the only way SU could serve LUX, is if LUX had a north-south runway.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38): I do hope that the German Government takes a firm stand on this and gets supported by the EU as well.
Like I said, such a firm stance as they're showing now, would not have happened if Schröder was still in power, given his very personal relationship with Putin, so if the government continues as firm as they are right now with Russia, you may have to give credit to Angie for it.
Zu fettigem Käse und kalorienreicher Kunstmarmelade, nehme ich einen Doppelkorn.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3750 posts, RR: 14 Reply 40, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8729 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 39):
Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. This probably means that the only way SU could serve LUX, is if LUX had a north-south runway.
Or they do sharp turns which will certainly not be on the LUX approach charts
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 39): Like I said, such a firm stance as they're showing now, would not have happened if Schröde
Fully agreed. During the 7 years of his Chancellorship, Schröder has met with Putin about 25 times and with Bush about 3 times. Ms.Merkel has a firmer stand on things and she has no desire to go on Putin's payroll after her term.
Will b interesting to see how this affair developes.
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
No, only SU is flying to HHN regularly (and Volga-Dniepr, Tetis Air Cargo and Polet Air, plus some obscure airlines using AN-12s). I have never seen Airbrigde over here. SU is quite important though because up tonow they have 4 DC-10 based here and were planning, for next year on, to replace them with MD-11s. As an airline with a base iin HHN they give the airport a little leverage against the all might FR (which practicallly monopolises the passenger business).
WILCO737 From Germany, joined Jun 2004, 6141 posts, RR: 89 Reply 42, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8637 times:
Hey guys,
thank god I am not flying over russia these days... I am in the south EAST of europe, so not even near Russia...
This is all very sad I must say...
I just ask myself: Why cant we just arrange to live next to each other without making the life of each other harder? Cant understand it....
WILCO737 From Germany, joined Jun 2004, 6141 posts, RR: 89 Reply 43, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8576 times:
Just checked the LH Intranet for further information. We still fly via TSE (Astana) but the flights are delayed. I checked all our aircrafts and the longest delay was 2 hours, rest up to one hour... or not flying via Astana... I guess all crews fly pretty fast to minimize the delay... Unbelievable and sad
Glideslope From United States, joined May 2004, 1319 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8263 times:
Time to wake up Europe. Remember who your friends really are. Putin is a megalomaniac, IMO. He is trying to influence domestic German politics. How? I'm not sure. I'd encourage the US build that Anti-Missle station ASAP.
IMO, Russia is a bigger problem than Iran right now. This LH issue is the tip of the Iceberg, IMO.
"He wins his battles by making no mistakes." Sun Tzu
Stylo777 From Turkey, joined Feb 2006, 2222 posts, RR: 8 Reply 45, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8130 times:
is the belly load on commercial flights also affected by this revoke?
LH sends often their A306's to SVO and they could carry a lot of cargo in their belly. also SU is flying with Airbus equipment to Germany and carry a bit of the absolutely necesarry things.
I mean the cargo load on this flights are forwarded/handled by LH Cargo and not LH Pax itself.
Varig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1229 posts, RR: 11 Reply 46, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7997 times:
Quoting Glideslope (Reply 44): Time to wake up Europe. Remember who your friends really are.
agree
when you think a Russian bank owns a percentage of Airbus and wants more of the capital, that's scary....
in another field it's quite interesting to see Gazprom insisting and trying to buy gas distribution networks in EU: for what purpose? to make cuts the day Putin is angry like they do to Ukraine and Belarus?
I fear they want to apply to other domains the airspace blackmail and it should not be the moment to play "a la UK" but on the contrary we should be all with Germany
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11): So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market? It would cause absolute chaos, even if they only closed up for a couple of days. They by far have the upper hand in this situation, we really need to fly over them in order to reach most of the destinations in north and central Asia from Europe directly... let caution prevail, because in it's current buoyant fashion, Russia will not think twice about such a move.
the next time a flamboyant Russian oil magnat asks to buy and dismantle Big Ben and to transport it to Magnitogorsk why don't you guys say YES? I don't know you could piss them off otherwise....
AF TW AA NW BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ RG
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3750 posts, RR: 14 Reply 48, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7936 times:
Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 45):
I mean the cargo load on this flights are forwarded/handled by LH Cargo and not LH Pax itself.
This affects cargo flights only. So far, the passenger flights are operating normally. Same goes for LH pax flights overflying Russian airspace on the way to the FE. At least there has been no news on that so far.
Quoting Glideslope (Reply 44): Time to wake up Europe. Remember who your friends really are. Putin is a megalomaniac, IMO. He is trying to influence domestic German politics. How? I'm not sure. I'd encourage the US build that Anti-Missle station ASAP.
IMO, Russia is a bigger problem than Iran right now. This LH issue is the tip of the Iceberg, IMO.
Unfortunately, many people cannot distinguish between a democracy and a totalitarian regime anymore.
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
Macc From Austria, joined Nov 2004, 849 posts, RR: 3 Reply 50, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7897 times:
Quoting Glideslope (Reply 44): Remember who your friends really are. Putin is a megalomaniac, IMO. He is trying to influence domestic German politics. How? I'm not sure. I'd encourage the US build that Anti-Missle station ASAP
well, get this idiot out of your white house and chances are good that we will like you again
On a more serious note: Putin is doing nothing else than what the USA are doing all the way. Trying to increase the political, economical influence of his nation. If one asks, why Russia did not yet sign the treaty, neither did the US with lots of other treaties. Anyone remembers Kyoto, the int. court for war criminals etc...? And just make it even more balanced, there are also other countries out there baking their own bread.
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 4553 posts, RR: 23 Reply 51, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7744 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15): Don't for a minute think Putin is just in a dispute with Germany. Russia are trying to test the mettle of the EU, who couldn't pass a constitution so they just created a treaty via edict instead. There are cracks in the EU, and this is a test of your strength as a unified economic body.
Apples and oranges. Sure Putin will try to test the unity of the EU, play hardball more often than he used to when his buddies Chirac and Schroeder were still in office, blackmail us through "pipeline foreign policy", issue threats left, right and mddle. However, I don't think the issue of constitution yes/no plays any major role in that.
Quoting Magyar (Reply 31): These people should wake up from their imperial hangover and realize that GB is no more
no less important and powerful than any other European "medium"-sized country (i.e. Germany, France).
Imperial hangovers are indeed funny, however I could think of at least one or two countries in the EU which manifest far more serious symptoms of this syndrome than the British do.
RussianJet From Kazakhstan, joined Jul 2007, 3377 posts, RR: 16 Reply 52, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7605 times:
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 19): Yes, that's exactly the reason why UK should leave the EU (and the EU markets and EU funds money) immediately. There is no free lunch. UK has it's free lunch for a pretty long time.
Bizarre thing to say - you're aware that other countries didn't want the stupid constitution too, right?? Also, please explain in what way the UK gets a 'free lunch' from the EU.
JFK787NYC From United States, joined Apr 2007, 676 posts, RR: 2 Reply 53, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7231 times:
Lufthansa has their ASIAN Hub in Kazakhstan. All flights going to all Asian destinations stop their before going onward.
This may very well be the reason for revoking rights. This situation maybe more focused on Kazakhstan then even Germany. Russia just feels they own Germany with all the gas they give them.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3750 posts, RR: 14 Reply 55, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7064 times:
Quoting Macc (Reply 50): well, get this idiot out of your white house and chances are good that we will like you again
That is exactly what I meant with this
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
Unfortunately, many people cannot distinguish between a democracy and a totalitarian regime anymore.
sentence.
Of course this is a political issue, but we have to see how countries are run. Checks and balances works in the US and in Europe. In Russia, the balances obviously work only when the checks are received.
It is a differnce, when the legislators do not pass a law because they have a different opinion with (which they even might be right). In this case, a treaty has been negotiated, part of the treaty is that, if Russia joins the WTO, the additonal over flying charges are cancelled and then not only this negotiated teaty is not signed but the airline from a befriended nation is denied a right without prior notification. It has been said before, next we get no gas unless we pay the double or triple price or join the new USSR or establiush a new GDR or whatever Putins blackmail will be.
.
.
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
JFK787NYC From United States, joined Apr 2007, 676 posts, RR: 2 Reply 56, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7024 times:
Listening to people on this board just proves one thing, Some of you have no idea about politics and you should stick too the airplane hobby.
Some of these things said in this board are just plain rediclious
The crack about comparing the United States to Russia.
The crack about Britian getting lunch for free at the EU.
None of you living in the EU respect one another. The reason why the EU is the EU is because of Britian and no one else. They went bankrupt fighting for Europe and you people sit around claiming that Britian is sitting around eating lunch for free. Last I seen everything Great Britian has more money sitting in house than any other EU country.
Europe is in worse shape then even the United States financially.
Russia is becoming a power again, But their Ego is getting ahead of themselves. The only reason their doing good right now is not because of Putin but because Russia got very lucky with the price of Oil & Gas going up. Russia cannot influence the United States, But they are sure trying to see how far they can go with Europe and for now they are laughing knowing that Europe can't be Europe anymore without Russia.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 10336 posts, RR: 66 Reply 57, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6991 times:
I have been passing HHN an hour or so ago, there was one lonely SU DC-10 parked on the apron. It might have arrived before the ban was declared and left there, awaiting further developments.
One reason for the Russian ban could be that with LH and other airlines using Kazakhstan, thus bringing money in, the country might become too independent from Russia for Putin's taste. I know that Putin is very intelligent, but I trust him as far as I can throw him.
BTW, on the way back from the airport I have heard on radio that Russia has issued a new school history texbook, which apparently reverses Krustchev's reforms of the 1950s and glorifies Stalin, while avoiding mentioning his crimes.
Danny From Ireland, joined Apr 2002, 3268 posts, RR: 6 Reply 58, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6984 times:
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 51): Sure Putin will try to test the unity of the EU, play hardball more often than he used to when his buddies Chirac and Schroeder were still in office, blackmail us through "pipeline foreign policy", issue threats left, right and mddle.
He does that all the time. The only way for EU to go is to take united stance against it.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3750 posts, RR: 14 Reply 59, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6746 times:
Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 56): None of you living in the EU respect one another. The reason why the EU is the EU is because of Britian and no one else. They went bankrupt fighting for Europe and you pe
Not quite . The UK went almost bankrupt because Mr. Cargill and his likes tried to rule the country, Mrs. T solved that and she also got her money back after whacking Kohl and Mitterand with her handbag. Let's agree that the UK with France and Germany are the driving forces behind European unity and that we are all far safer when we stay in the Western alliance with the USA.
This incident is the perfect example of how countries which are in the same clubs (G8, WTO, just to mention 2) should not treat each other. Pactum sund servandum is an elementary condition not only of international affairs.
I am glad that my Government acted quickly and revoked landing rights for Russian carriers until their Government has come to reason again.
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
Sh0rtybr0wn From United States, joined Aug 2007, 528 posts, RR: 0 Reply 60, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6636 times:
This is sad. Its been about 10 + years of trade and better relations between Russia and western Europe; doing business, making money, travelling without restrictions. I hope it continues in the future.
It seems strange for Russia to ban German planes from their airspace at the same time they re buying into EADS and buying German made Airbus aircraft.
The Russian Murder in London and the UK / Russian Air interceptor incidents in the North Atlantic are really unnecessary. But the building a missile shield on the eastern European border is a bad idea too; it's an insult to Russia to point a missile shield at them. People can say the missile shield is for Iran, but I can't see Iran attacking Europe, or anybody now or in the future because they'd rather sell oil to Europe and make money.
Maybe this LH ban has something to do with Putin's recent Tehran visit, and his desire to enlist Europe's help in preventing any future bombing of Iran through pressure on the US.
I think most citizens of all countries involved would rather see overfly rights and other problems settled without future Cold Wars and bombing campaigns.
Kalvado From United States, joined Feb 2006, 195 posts, RR: 0 Reply 61, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6457 times:
Quoting Basefly (Reply 33): Today an Russian TU-160 long range bomber flew into Norwegian, British and Danish airspace, which prompted the 3 nations to scramble fighter jets and rendezvous with the TU-160 and turn it away.
So did it fly INTO national airspace (that would make the news), or it was legally flying in the INTERNATIONAL airspace?
It's pretty much like saying that a car passed just 5 meters away - almost resulting in an accident. There are 2 lanes, and everyone stayed in there lane - but what a scare..
GlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 540 posts, RR: 7 Reply 62, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6446 times:
NEWS: Apparently SU is again allowed to fly to HHN and therefore over German territory..... pretty strange indeed....
So that might hint that could really be partly be LH's fault?
GlobeEx
In the game of chess you can never let your adversary see your pieces.
GlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 540 posts, RR: 7 Reply 63, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6447 times:
NEWS: Apparently SU is again allowed to fly to HHN and therefore over German territory..... pretty strange indeed....
So that might hint that it could really be partly LH's fault?
GlobeEx
In the game of chess you can never let your adversary see your pieces.
TP313 From Portugal, joined Nov 2001, 146 posts, RR: 0 Reply 64, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6370 times:
Quoting Danny (Reply 58): Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 51):
Sure Putin will try to test the unity of the EU, play hardball more often than he used to when his buddies Chirac and Schroeder were still in office, blackmail us through "pipeline foreign policy", issue threats left, right and middle.
He does that all the time. The only way for EU to go is to take united stance against it.
Putin is just playing the very same game of "divide and rule" the US has played with the EU ever since the
cold war ended to prevent it becoming a credible competitor on the world stage.
I might add that the US has been playing that game successfully, thanks to the scores of US president's "buddies" that have
governed us over the last years - Thatcher, Kohl, Blair, Sarko, etc.
And while we're on this, isn't Schroeder, Putin's buddy, the very same Schroeder that while publicly confronted Bush
on rendition flights, knowingly and secretly continued allowing the US to use German airports for those
flights?
So is he also Bush's buddy after all?
For the EU to credibly take a united stance against Putin, or whoever, it will have first to become something other
the "united collection of US satellites".
Until then, good luck trying...
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 4553 posts, RR: 23 Reply 65, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6202 times:
Quoting TP313 (Reply 64): Putin is just playing the very same game of "divide and rule" the US has played with the EU ever since the
cold war ended to prevent it becoming a credible competitor on the world stage.
Obviously you have no clue what I was talking about otherwise you'd save yourself the energy to make such absurdly ass-inine comparisons.
Quoting TP313 (Reply 64): For the EU to credibly take a united stance against Putin, or whoever, it will have first to become something other
the "united collection of US satellites".
You mean like European Islamo-Socialist Union??? Well on our way to become that...
JFK787NYC From United States, joined Apr 2007, 676 posts, RR: 2 Reply 66, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6162 times:
What are you people talking about US Satellite States? What does Europe do for the United States? Have any of you seen all the bombings that were going on in Europe in the past 7 Years? Has Europe tried doing anything?
Russia does all of this as political games to show that they do have power now and everyone is worried.
I dont even know what games the US has played on Europe maybe someone could put me in on the know?
RussianJet From Kazakhstan, joined Jul 2007, 3377 posts, RR: 16 Reply 67, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6097 times:
Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 56): None of you living in the EU respect one another. The reason why the EU is the EU is because of Britian and no one else. They went bankrupt fighting for Europe and you people sit around claiming that Britian is sitting around eating lunch for free. Last I seen everything Great Britian has more money sitting in house than any other EU country.
Apart from the bit about nobody respecting one another (I for one love many European countries and certainly respect all of them), you're spot-on there. The UK, in contrast to many other member states, is a net contributor to the EU. Still, let's not let that simple fact get in the way of good old-fashioned prejudice.
Kalvado From United States, joined Feb 2006, 195 posts, RR: 0 Reply 68, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6097 times:
Grows interesting by the minute.. now Russian authorities say that LH was flying with TEMPORARY permit, which expired on October 27th, and LH didn't apply for extension. If that's really the case, why was it a temporary one to begin with?
TP313 From Portugal, joined Nov 2001, 146 posts, RR: 0 Reply 70, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6064 times:
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 65): You mean like European Islamo-Socialist Union??? Well on our way to become that
Things don't get much more asinine than this quote...
Since the EU has, sometimes reluctantly, some times willingly, played the pawn of the US in the global geopolitics
chessboard, I find hard to take seriously those that become offended because someone else tries to use the EU
as a pawn in the very same game...
WILCO737 From Germany, joined Jun 2004, 6141 posts, RR: 89 Reply 72, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5875 times:
Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 71): The Cold War was never over. Only the naive ever talked like that. The arms race may have been dormant for awhile, but the Cold War kept on.
Sad, really sad....
Interesting how this discussion developed... I guess nobody of us know WHY exactly the rights were revoked...
Its all just specilation...
I will see what will happen in the future and which weird routings I have to fly to get to lovely Astana
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3750 posts, RR: 14 Reply 73, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5836 times:
FAZ reports that the overflying rights of LH Cargo expired Oct 27 and that a new application must be made. I doubt that a well run airline like LH Cargo lets a traffic right expire just like that. It is more likely that such a new rule just became effective as of Oct 28 and the Russian authorities forgot to tell LH Cargo in time.
This whole matter stinks like rotten caviar. It is wrong to let SU cargo into HHN before this is solved.
Quoting TP313 (Reply 70):
Things don't get much more asinine than this quote.
You forget that all the western democracies sit in the same boat. Our freedom is based on these values and (not only your) mistake is to equalize western democracies with totalitarian states. Russia is not a democraciy as long as it puts opposition leaders in jail or kills them right away, together with oppositional journalists. Putin is a KGB officer and that firm knows how to manipulate opinions. They are obviously highly successful and have influenced Millions of useful id*ots around the world.
. .
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
YOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4398 posts, RR: 32 Reply 74, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5743 times:
They are going to go one step too far very soon. When that happens the weight of the world will come down on them. Russian airspace is vital to many players because of its size and location. If they decided for instance to deny LH's passenger flights from overflying I could genuinely see a situation where all Star Alliance carriers and their respective governments take broad action against Russia. SU would bleed quick and hard and Moscow would be forced to smarten the f*ck up. Honestly it's amazing what the Russians pull from time to time.
YOWza
Airports flown this year:RGN,KUL,LHR,LAX,YOW,YTZ,MDW,SEA,SCL,EZE,AEP,IGR,MDZ,IAD,YVR
TP313 From Portugal, joined Nov 2001, 146 posts, RR: 0 Reply 75, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5709 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 73): You forget that all the western democracies sit in the same boat.
I'm old enough for having still lived under a dictatorship, and our NATO allies did nothing about it
for sake of not rocking the boat while the Cold War was being fought... so much for values.
What our central european friends don't understand is that there also existed dictatorships this side
of Europe up until the 1970s. And they were every bit as vicious as those in the east.
If you think values count for anything other than rethoric in geopolitics then you're in for a rude
awakening one of these days...
FlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 377 posts, RR: 0 Reply 76, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5602 times:
Quoting BCNGRO (Reply 47):
We should act as a whole and revoke all Russian rights to fly over Europe, from the southernmost part of Spain to the northermost part of Finland.
However, this is not as simple as this. If AY would lose rights to fly over Russia, it would basically end the operations of that airline as all the Asian routes go through the Russian airspace. This would definitely not be in the interests of Finnish government, which owns majority of AY...
Anyway, this thread is so full of Russo-Euro-American prejudice, that it's hard to believe that some people are actually using the airplanes for anything but domestic flights.
JoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2209 posts, RR: 0 Reply 77, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5461 times:
Quoting Glideslope (Reply 44): Time to wake up Europe. Remember who your friends really are
I would like to cite the wise Mr De Gaulle: 'Countries don't have have friend, they have interests". That sums it up pretty well from my point of view and explains why you sometimes have the impression that a specific country becomes friendlier or more hostile...
Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 56): Listening to people on this board just proves one thing, Some of you have no idea about politics and you should stick too the airplane hobby.
And you certainly have...
Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 56): The reason why the EU is the EU is because of Britian and no one else.
The to inform you, the EU was funded in the 50ies by France, Italy, BeNeLux and Germany because they decided it might be better to become friends than going with killing each other as the previous 100 years.
Britain joined 20 years later when they realized that this might be a good opportunity to take its share from the economic gain the EU delivered to its members. Nothing wrong with that, but the EU would be where they are even without Britain. Most likely much further integrated....
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 59): Let's agree that the UK with France and Germany are the driving forces behind European unity
I strongly object my Lord! I can not remember that the UK ever was an important force in further developing the EU. That is simply not their interest, what is totally ok.
Although I have to concede that Britain always was a strong proponent of the eastern expansion of the EU. Although arguably to prevent the old EU from deepening its integration.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3750 posts, RR: 14 Reply 79, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5414 times:
Quoting TP313 (Reply 75):
I'm old enough for having still lived under a dictatorship, and our NATO allies did nothing about it
for sake of not rocking the boat while the Cold War was being fought... so much for values
contrary to what happened in Hungary or Czechoslovakia (or in East Berlin June 17,1951) , the Western World encouraged the political change from dictatorship to democracy in Portugal and Spain. You would be right if the US would have supported Salazar by lining up tanks on Praca do Comercio.
Your answer just provces me right.
. .
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
Interesting how this discussion developed... I guess nobody of us know WHY exactly the rights were revoked...
Its all just specilation...
I will see what will happen in the future and which weird routings I have to fly to get to lovely Astana
The reason don't seem to be LH Cargo not paying the fees.
It's a good bet this is not about fees but rather payoffs. I was in Russia for a month not long ago. Good people... but I'll be damned if that is not one of the most corrupt countries I've been to... and that's saying something. Believe me. My advice; pay em off. This is no win situation. The Russians know that. LH- Take you losses now. Shake hands. But learn the lesson and reassess your financial stake there.
I know quite a few flight crew members that loved layovers in FAI...even in winter! Lufty's departure to Astana was a big loss for the Fairbanks community (aviation and otherwise). If the Russians won't have LH...we'd love to have them back!
I know quite a few flight crew members that loved layovers in FAI...even in winter! Lufty's departure to Astana was a big loss for the Fairbanks community (aviation and otherwise). If the Russians won't have LH...we'd love to have them back!
ALL LH Cargo Pilots want FAI back! nobody actually likes the Astana stops... We all hope every day to get back to FAI... The sooner the better
PanAm1971 From United States, joined Aug 2007, 183 posts, RR: 0 Reply 85, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3685 times:
well, get this idiot out of your white house and chances are good that we will like you again
On a more serious note: Putin is doing nothing else than what the USA are doing all the way. Trying to increase the political, economical influence of his nation. If one asks, why Russia did not yet sign the treaty, neither did the US with lots of other treaties. Anyone remembers Kyoto, the int. court for war criminals etc...? And just make it even more balanced, there are also other countries out there baking their own bread.
I'm not a Bush fan by any stretch. But this just has to be answered. Sir, we've NEVER attempted to intimidate or coerce your nation. In fact, we-the US-have been solid allies with western Europe for 60+ years and have maintained good relations with Austria. You'd never know that these days though. The US should accept responsability for being tone deaf. Your nation(s) should accept theirs for being over the top. As far as civil aviation goes-this type of behavior is unthinkable between Europe and the US. Thank God. PS-Thanks for sending us Arnold!
PanAm1971 From United States, joined Aug 2007, 183 posts, RR: 0 Reply 86, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3548 times:
Quoting Basefly (Reply 33): Today an Russian TU-160 long range bomber flew into Norwegian, British and Danish airspace, which prompted the 3 nations to scramble fighter jets and rendezvous with the TU-160 and turn it away.
Analysts say it is an political move by Putin, to show strength in the upcoming elections.
Anybody else starting to think that Russia is going back to the old scary days.......?
Finally got the quote system. Nice. Anyhoo, after having been there-I do not repeat DO NOT think Russia is headed back to USSR MkII. Putin may well be overplaying his hand. Russians will back him as long as he does cause more problems than he's worth... like say disrupt air travel.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3750 posts, RR: 14 Reply 88, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3506 times:
Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 85):
I'm not a Bush fan by any stretch. But this just has to be answered. Sir, we've NEVER attempted to intimidate or coerce your nation. In fact, we-the US-have been solid allies with western Europe for 60+ years and have maintained good relations with Austria. You'd never know that these days though. The US should accept responsability for being tone deaf. Your nation(s) should accept theirs for being over the top. As far as civil aviation goes-this type of behavior is unthinkable between Europe and the US. Thank God. PS-Thanks for sending us Arnold! Smile
Anyway, looks like the diplomatic channels are on high power and this should be solved probably even within today.
Still, it is one more reason never to trust Putin. I hope that enough people will remember this behaviour and that this will backfire on the guy.
.
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
PanAm1971 From United States, joined Aug 2007, 183 posts, RR: 0 Reply 89, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3386 times:
Quoting TP313 (Reply 64): Putin is just playing the very same game of "divide and rule" the US has played with the EU ever since the
cold war ended to prevent it becoming a credible competitor on the world stage.
Complete and absolute bovine scatology. If there is any reticence in the US about the EU, it is the number of voices spouting vitriol like this.
WILCO737 From Germany, joined Jun 2004, 6141 posts, RR: 89 Reply 90, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3322 times:
Quoting Gearup380 (Reply 87): Would DEL be an alternative for LH as a hub between Europe and the Far East?
We are using SHJ already for some flights to far east... In DEL there is a lot of traffic and I think not so easy to get a lot of slots there... But I am not sure!
But FAI would be the better option for sure LH Cargo used to fly there and they are familiar with the area...
TP313 From Portugal, joined Nov 2001, 146 posts, RR: 0 Reply 91, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3302 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 79): You would be right if the US would have supported Salazar by lining up tanks on Praca do Comercio.
Tell that to the dissidents he send to the Tarrafal concentration camp in the islands of Cape Verde.
Tell that to Humberto Delgado that Salazar had to kill, because he dared to defy him in a fake election
that Salazar only managed to win by massive fraud.
Tell that to those he sent to their deaths in an unwinable colonial war.
The blind eye the US of the turned to this and other events is as moraly bankrupt as the
tanks on the streets of Prague and Budapest. (In the case of the colonial war, the US supported the
regime until they figured out that they would get a better deal - they didn't get it, but that's another story -
by supporting some guerrilla factions, that fought the communist guerrillas instead of the portuguese)
PanAm1971 From United States, joined Aug 2007, 183 posts, RR: 0 Reply 94, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3150 times:
Quoting TP313 (Reply 91): Tell that to the dissidents he send to the Tarrafal concentration camp in the islands of Cape Verde.
Tell that to Humberto Delgado that Salazar had to kill, because he dared to defy him in a fake election
that Salazar only managed to win by massive fraud.
Tell that to those he sent to their deaths in an unwinable colonial war.
The blind eye the US of the turned to this and other events is as moraly bankrupt as the
tanks on the streets of Prague and Budapest. (In the case of the colonial war, the US supported the
regime until they figured out that they would get a better deal - they didn't get it, but that's another story -
by supporting some guerrilla factions, that fought the communist guerrillas instead of the portuguese)
One would hope that most people in Portugal take responsibility for their country's course and not look for American boogymen behind every tree. I think the record of the US in Europe stands on it own for what has been; successful in aiding European freedom and prosperity such as it has never known before. Now-can we please go back to an AV discussion?
Read "Rebuilding America's Defenses" (PNAC, 2000) by, among others, the infamous I. Lewis "Scooter"
Libby where it is stated that the US foreign and defense policies must be guided by the principle of
preventing, by any means necessary, the emergence of any competitor of the US either in the
economic, technological or military field.
This is the current school of thought of the officials in the US government.
And those of the Brzezinsky persuasion, that were in power in the Clinton years, were not much different...
Is it now anti-american to quote the openly stated aims of the policies of Libby, Wolfowitz or Cheney?
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 3750 posts, RR: 14 Reply 96, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3121 times:
TP313 - I am not one3 sided, but you should read the black book of communism.
Back to the topic -
I should have read the news first -
Mr. Beck, leader of the social democratic party and PM of the state of Rhineland Palatine which happens to ne where HHN is located, has requested the transport minister, who happens to be from the spd as well, to lift the ban on SU flightsin order to avoid economic damages on the region.
I knew all the time that Beck is a certified moron, he did not have to prove it, but this really hits the sh*t out of the fan. How can anyone run for office of chief of Government (Beck wants to succeed Ms Merkel) if he cannot stand out the slightes breeze? This is unbelievable. Beck is selling out German interests to Mr. Putin. I would not be surprised if Putin sends a donation to the spd for that.
LH clearly said that they have applied for a prolongation of the overflying rights well in time. Obvilously, they did not grease the palms. Which, in turn, is VERBOTEN by German law. Check Siemens or Spedition Renz. The LCAG CEO would go to jail for that.
But then we have a fanous Mr Back turining around and back stabbing a company that is part DAX 30 blue chip.
Putin and the rest of that bunch must have had a party this afternoon.
Kole Feut un' 'nen steiffen Wind gifft 'nen krusen Buedel un' 'nen luetten Pint
You might be right, but all i am saying is that Russia is really acting hostile towards small nations like Denmark and Norway without provocation, that just plain wrong....
GECMD11 From United States, joined Oct 2006, 106 posts, RR: 0 Reply 98, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3106 times:
Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 90): But FAI would be the better option for sure Wink LH Cargo used to fly there and they are familiar with the area...
WILCO737 (MD11F)
i speak to allot of LCAG crews and ,i haven't heard one of them wanting to go to Astana. They all seam to miss FAI very badly.......TSE is referred to as the the white desert by LCAG crews!
Sponsor Message: 
From Germany, joined May 2005, 3750 posts, 
From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 1601 posts, 
From United States, joined Apr 2007, 676 posts, 
From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 3037 posts, 
From France, joined Oct 2004, 704 posts, 
From Slovak Republic, joined Jan 2004, 775 posts, 
From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 7847 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1096 posts, 
From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 10642 posts, 
From Bermuda, joined Nov 2005, 121 posts, 
From Hungary, joined Feb 2000, 561 posts, 
From Denmark, joined Apr 2007, 196 posts, 
From Turkey, joined Feb 2006, 2222 posts, 
From Andorra, joined Oct 2004, 584 posts, 
We should stop this now, first were the missiles pointing Europe, now we are banned from their airspace.
From Austria, joined Nov 2004, 849 posts, 
From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 4553 posts, 
From Kazakhstan, joined Jul 2007, 3377 posts, 
From Ireland, joined Apr 2002, 3268 posts, 
From Portugal, joined Nov 2001, 146 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 4547 posts, 
From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 377 posts, 
The sooner the better 
