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Frontier Hangar To Colorado Springs  
User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4442 times:

http://www.gazette.com/articles/fron...__article.html/hangar_springs.html

I like Mike Boyds comment. Sean Menke would not go all the way to Colorado Springs to tell them they were not getting the hanger.

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4321 times:
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If its true - and I agree with Mike Boyd - it might have been different if Denver did not have that city tax on new aviation equipment, which includes new aircraft.

Good for the Springs.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4293 times:

It can sometimes be hard to tell if a story like this is true, anonymous sources, but as you say, good for the springs if true. We shall see tomorrow. I did read another article in the Denver Post stating the same thing.

One question. The one article mentions possible service at some point. How much traffic could really be expect from a place like Colorado Springs? Especially if it is connecting in Denver? Have there ever been any other airlines who have had a flight from COS to DEN?

[Edited 2007-11-01 19:16:13]

User currently offlineN200WN From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 784 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4253 times:

Great news for the Springs. I lived there for ten years and love to hear any good news about COS. Hopefully they will someday see some mainline F9 flights to a few key cities...LAS for instance.

User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2754 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

Mods, any way to fix the topic so it is spelled correctly?

Hanger: Clothes storage
Hangar: Airplane storage



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4218 times:

Quoting N200WN (Reply 3):
Hopefully they will someday see some mainline F9 flights to a few key cities

Surely they will have mainline flights. If nothing more than ferrying aircraft from DEN to maintainance and back, they might as well carry passengers.


User currently offlineRW717 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 288 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4208 times:

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 2):
Have there ever been any other airlines who have had a flight from COS to DEN?

United, and a few other airlines, flew it for years with mainline equipment. I'm sure it was mostly connecting traffic.



Reno Air - The Biggest Little Airline in the World
User currently offlineN200WN From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 784 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4148 times:

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 2):
Have there ever been any other airlines who have had a flight from COS to DEN?

Several airlines have operated COS-DEN at one time or another:

UA - Mainline for many years and with DC-10's for a short while back in '95 to compete with W7.
CO
FL - The original Frontier
TW
BN
HP
Aspen
Rocky Mountain Airways
Trans Colorado
Mesa
American Central
GP Express
Central - The original Ft. Worth based airline that was bought out by FL

Also, TW and HP operated COS-PUB as either tag-ons (STL-COS-PUB) or round robin flights (LAS-COS-PUB-LAS) in the 1980's and CO operated the route in the pre-jet era.

I have a fair amount of info on previous routes from COS if anyone is interested.


User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2921 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4076 times:

Channel 13 is already reporting it as a "done deal" tonight

http://www.krdo.com/Global/story.asp?S=7299484



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4011 times:

CRAP! I was hoping F9 would build a hangar at DEN.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 1):
it might have been different if Denver did not have that city tax on new aviation equipment, which includes new aircraft.

This, I can understand, but on new aircraft?! How does that work? So if Airbus delivers the new 320 for F9, how does that get taxed if F9 accepts delivery at TLS or in Maine?



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineYtib From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3976 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
This, I can understand, but on new aircraft?! How does that work? So if Airbus delivers the new 320 for F9, how does that get taxed if F9 accepts delivery at TLS or in Maine?

The first flight into Denver needs to be a revenue flight which is why they stop at MCI on the way here. Early on they would use PHX since their was a mx operation there but once MCI opened they switched to there leading to the EDHI-CYQX-KMCI-KDEN flights versus EDHI-KBGR-KPHX-KDEN. As they do not have any more aircraft on order which would be delivered from Hamburg the route will change in February.

The Lynx aircraft are also stopping in Kansas City, but more so as a halfway point from Toronto on the way to Broomfield.

There are taxes on business property for companies operating in the City and County of Denver. Thus they will be paying a tax on the aircraft most likely, but not the special taxes on new deliveries.

If you want some fun reading here is a Denver tax guide, http://www.denvergov.org/Treasury/TaxGuide/tabid/424582/Default.aspx.
I would look at the links for Aircraft, Fuel, Property, and probably some others I am missing.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3936 times:
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Quoting N200WN (Reply 3):
Hopefully they will someday see some mainline F9 flights to a few key cities...LAS for instance.

I'm not sure there will be any - or many - flights in the short term, but that may change.

I don't know much about traffic patterns at COS. I did a check and most routes appear to be RJ's, except for Allegiant to LAS.

And American - who have several flights a day on MD80's to DFW. They seem to do well and I was surprised there was so much demand for COS-DFW, compared with, say, COS-LAX.

Am I missing something?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3903 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):

current mainline at cos is AA to DFW, DL to ATL,NW to msp and G4 to LA$, everything else is crj or erj....AA pulls alot of pax that are going any where east plus into deep texas...the reason there are only 3 a day to LAX is ual wants to route thru den as much as possibble as the majority of the cos-lax pax are local only....the connects i see are cheaper thru den /lax to the west coast than a 1 stop thru lax....also have heard that there will be a cos-smx flt in the not to distant future...and it might not be skywest!



bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

Quoting Ytib (Reply 10):

That sucks! Is DEN the only city/county in the U.S. that actually does this practice? I recall that McDD had to do delivery flights out of state to YUM or PHX to avoid having to pay sales tax in California or something like that back in the days when McDD were around.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3873 times:
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Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 12):
current mainline at cos is AA to DFW, DL to ATL,NW to msp and G4 to LA$, everything else is crj or erj.

Thanks for all that. If Frontier is to have some relationship with COS, no mtter how big or how small, my learning curve about COS has started.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDenverDanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3861 times:

Unfortunate for Denver, but not a big deal. They also lost the contest for the massive United maintenance facility a while back. Wasn't Denver a finalist for the Boeing HQ too? I guess it wasn't worth it to the city to come up with stellar offers in either case to land/keep jobs. Maybe a change from past decades when local leaders here in Denver/Boulder saw the importance of bringing jobs to the area.

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3854 times:
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Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 15):
Unfortunate for Denver, but not a big deal.

Not a big deal, perhaps, but the Denver Post thinks it is of some consequence:

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_7342428

"It's a significant loss for Denver in jobs and economic impact — and one that officials as high as Denver Mayor John Hickenlooper had been trying to prevent."

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3838 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_7342428

"It's a significant loss for Denver in jobs and economic impact — and one that officials as high as Denver Mayor John Hickenlooper had been trying to prevent."

If the City of DEN was trying to prevent that, they would have given F9 some concessions. Unfortuantely, they didn't. They didn't try hard enough to prevent it. They just didn't care, IMO.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3827 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
They didn't try hard enough to prevent it. They just didn't care, IMO.

To be fair, they did try:

"In negotiations with DIA, Frontier had pushed for relief of the aircraft-parts sales and use tax, and Denver had offered incentives but was restricted in what it could offer."

But they couldn't trump COS's ace:

"Colorado Springs was apparently able to upset Denver with an attractive incentive package it submitted to Frontier during a request for proposals process earlier this year."

This is assuming hat the hangar is going to be at COS, of course. Frontier hasn't confirmed it yet.  Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3127 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3823 times:

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 2):
One question. The one article mentions possible service at some point. How much traffic could really be expect from a place like Colorado Springs? Especially if it is connecting in Denver? Have there ever been any other airlines who have had a flight from COS to DEN?

Very interesting indeed. There had been some speculating earlier on whether COS could garner some p2p F9 service. COS and DEN have shared and do share a number of airlines to identical destinations. A bit of a commute for most, but parts of the Denver metro area can see COS as a Denver alternate. WP had considerable success on that when they existed. COS has reasonable unmet demand in some areas, which is why ExpressJet started service recently.

Using the B6 model, it is possible to serve one of your hub cities with more than one airport.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
And American - who have several flights a day on MD80's to DFW. They seem to do well and I was surprised there was so much demand for COS-DFW, compared with, say, COS-LAX.

Am I missing something?

Colorado was, and is still considered by some, to be a part of the Republic of Texas. Ruffles some of the natives.  
According to my "Largest US Cities Named After Food" (an excellent book, the title referes to just one section in one of the 11 chapters), Colorado Springs ranks second (16%) in the US for percent Southern-borne for a city outside of the South. (Detroit was 1st, Denver didn't make the top 12). That, and there is considerable military linkage between Colorado Springs and Texas. COS to Kileen, TX (Army Fort Hood) alone averages 13 passengers/day.

Prior to AA, Braniff used to serve COS-DFW with 2-4 flights a day, a couple of those with stops in OKC. Around the same time (70s) CO used to fly COS-MAF (or it might have been vice versa); original Frontier had a milk run to Dallas, I think, via AMA.

-Rampart

[Edited 2007-11-02 00:21:07]

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3811 times:
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Quoting Rampart (Reply 19):
Colorado was, and is still considered by some, to be a part of the Republic of Texas. Ruffles some of the natives.  

Thanks for all that. Keep it coming - I'll take as much info about COS as anyone cares to throw my way.  Smile

For those interested, here's a slightly longer and a little bit deeper analysis of the (presumed) move, also from the Denver Post:

http://www.denverpost.com/extremes/ci_7345273

It contains the following:

"Also expected are new Colorado Springs flights to tie in with the hangar deal. Frontier doesn't currently fly to Colorado Springs."

We'll see.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3798 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
This is assuming hat the hangar is going to be at COS, of course. Frontier hasn't confirmed it yet.  Smile

If this is the case, DEN better get to work if they want to have F9's hangar on DEN's property. Sometimes DEN has to lost some things to make things work for them. Hopefully F9 and DEN will come to a much agreeable terms. They may not. This is DEN's to lose, not F9, IMO.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineRampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3127 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3795 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 20):
"Also expected are new Colorado Springs flights to tie in with the hangar deal. Frontier doesn't currently fly to Colorado Springs."

We'll see.

Just speculating here, but in terms of unmet demand, COS to Florida or the Northeast (Washington or NYC) would be most obvious. Stimulate the market and some closer destinations might support traffic, like STL, SAT, SEA.

If this does indeed take place -- the flights in addition to the maintenance -- it would be ironic on a couple counts. COS tried for years to attract WN, only to have them end up in DEN. F9 and WP considered a merger in their early days when WP decided to migrate from COS to DEN. If F9 returns to COS, they might take advantage of a market WP put aside, and realize a portion of the market that WP had.

-Rampart


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5411 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3770 times:

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 12):
also have heard that there will be a cos-smx flt in the not to distant future...and it might not be skywest!

You're referring to something besides the current 2x daily XE flights? (ExpressJet also connects COS with SAN and ONT at the present time.)

It does seem very reasonable to envision F9 turning COS into a kind of co-terminal with DEN since up and down I-25, the two cities are rather quickly becoming joined. I would also be expecting the COS airport folks to d.a.p. to "encourage" Frontier to start mainline service on a big scale. This will be very interesting to follow...

bb


User currently offlineYtib From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 3654 times:

Official at this time.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/071102/laf053.html?.v=82


Also included is the start of service to DEN with mainline aircraft. If anything else will start I am sure they will keep it closed lip for now.

"While we anxiously await the start, and ultimately completion of this new state-of-the-art maintenance facility, we are happy to add that we will be able to easily transport our new friends in Colorado Springs to and from our hub in Denver. While we are still analyzing the appropriate aircraft and frequencies for this service, we are committed to linking Colorado Springs to our DIA hub by late spring of 2008, offering Colorado Springs a one-stop connection to over 60 cities in the U.S., Canada, and Central America via Frontier's mainline Airbus service."


25 Post contains images AirframeAS : Crap! So the real winner is COS & F9. The real LOSER is DEN and the City of DEN. Had DEN given much more attractive offer, F9 would have built their
26 Uadc8contrail : Airframe, when den has a 36% tax on aircraft parts that are stored at dia, no one in their right mind would build anything big there unless his honor
27 Rampart : Despite my wishful thinking earlier, this makes sense for now. Customers using F9 from COS will weigh the convenience of a smaller streamlined airpor
28 SeeTheWorld : Actually, I grew up just north of Colorado Springs, and my father was a United pilot. The interesting thing about COS is that there have always been
29 FATFlyer : SMX? SMX is Santa Maria. Although SMX is the closest airport to Vandenberg AFB I will be pleasantly surprised if someone thinks there is enough milit
30 Post contains links Mariner : I've been reading the press release, and I don't see mainline service DEN-COS anywhere - did I miss something? The Denver Post says it will be Lynx s
31 Rampart : According to my reference book, and my geographic sensibilities, I meant both. Texas in my original reference stands alone as a strong destination fo
32 Cactus739 : No..I don't think you're missing anything... it says ". While we are still analyzing the appropriate aircraft and frequencies for this service, we ar
33 Rampart : I agree. Before that, FL and CO offered maybe one or two flights to PHX or LAX. Technically, Western operated the SLC-COS route first for several yea
34 Bahadir : This is one of my pet peeves.. I have seen even pilots make this mistake..
35 Mariner : Off-topic: oddly, for someone of my background, I had a lot of connections with The South when I lived in the US. There was a common theme from all m
36 Rampart : For that and several other reasons, barbeque being one of them, I would like to visit Memphis some day. At the risk of drifting further off course, a
37 Ytib : I probably just read to much into the last line and misinterpreted the line about mainline Airbus service. Reading this again, it is mentioning the s
38 Mariner : Well - yes. And no. I think BNA-CUN screws that, and I think what they have to decide what they're going to do with that as well. It isn't Frontier's
39 Quickmover : I'm sure they will see some Lynx flights, but how could they not have some mainline if COS will be a maintainance base for Airbus aircraft. Surely th
40 Stapleton : Absolutely. Similar to what NW did for years with DLH when they had an airbus maintenance base there. DLH would have only seen DC9s otherwise. There
41 Kohflot : Make sure you read Fast Food Nation and watch Jesus Camp! It'll be interesting to see how this works out for F9. Remote hangars may look good on the
42 AirframeAS : Well, then if DEN wants to keep business going, they ought to consider dropping that tax dramatically. They had their chance to do so and look where
43 Post contains images Tedex : I know UA has pulled year-round service from DEN-ANC, but what are the DEN-ANC 2008 Follies? Did they add it back in for anything beyond seasonal ser
44 Mariner : The DEN-ANC Follies - 2008 version: (i) United issues a press release anouncing the end of DEN-ANC as year round service (lack of profit). It will go
45 Allstarflyer : I remember it was either SkyWest or Air Whiskey who did that for UA back when I was with ACA (at their end). I was jumpseating on 2 mainline flights
46 Post contains images N1120A : The gigantic fortress hub AA has at DFW
47 TedEx : Wow! Follies, indeed... I was hoping UA (or F9) would have a holiday season flight.
48 CarsAir04 : Just from listening to Sean Menke, IMO, we could find some surprising changes. It just seems he has a mindset that is not totally different that Pott
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