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Trijets & Rear Engined Planes  
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3471 posts, RR: 10
Posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1397 times:

Do you think that any of the major companies will ever make another trijets or rear engined airliner????? The DC-10, L-1011, and MD-11 were great planes, and now, all 3 are out of production!!!!! Do you think Boeing may make a 717 predecessor like the MD-80??? I hope so, anyway, give me your comments!!!

THANX,
Jeremy

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 1, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1347 times:

No

User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1334 times:

Here is something I posted a few days ago regarding the likelihood of a future DC-10 or L-1011 type aircraft:


Four words:
Not going to happen.

Anyway, this topic has been addressed before, and in case you didn't see it, here's a summary of what we pretty much came to agree on:

The MD-11, while certainly a good plane, has seemed to have found its niche as a freighter as opposed to a passenger plane. The MD-11 was just a few years behind its time. During the design stage of the MD-11, MDD was having a lot of internal problems that not only led to the delay of the -11, but also a total lack of Total Quality Management. Plus, consider this: the large, tri-jet engine was a design whose time had come and passed. From an economic and maintenance standard, why buy a plane with three engines, when a two engined plane (the 763, or even the embryonic at the time A330 and 777) could do the job just as well with one-third less the number of power plants?
All of that, along with the advent of ETOPS essentially doomed the MD-11 program long before the first delivery was made.

As for the possibility of a stretched 717 or rebirth of the MD-80/90, at this point due to the fact that the 717 sales just continue to stagnate, I have some serious doubts. Unless a big name airline like American or Delta steps up and orders 100+ of them, I'd expect to see that design fade into history as well.




User currently offlineTrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3237 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1299 times:

I agree with Matt D about large trijets. They were designs whose halcyon days were the early '70s but have now become dated. The large twins are the state of the art now. It is simply a reflection of the increased power available from jet engines now, that only 2 are needed to do what 3 were once required to do.

As far as the 717/MD80/MD90 series is concerned, I think that it is too early to write off the 717 - many other Boeing designs started off slowly but eventually caught on. With the right marketing and possibly a large order or two, it should remain in production for a long time. The MD80/90, however, have followed the same fate as the trijets, namely, as being dated designs. Where the 717 has an advantage is that it is lightweight and thus offers fuel savings compared to the 737 family, especially over short dense sectors, the larger older birds are heavier and additionally have the main drawback of all T-tailers, namely great weight aft of the wings and poor low-speed handling inflight.

Trintocan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineRoberson From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1279 times:

Trijets are definately out because of high operating costs due to the number of engines and poor handling with three engines compared to two. For example, in cases of windshear, it is believed that recovery of control takes longer and is more difficult in trijets compared to other planes.

User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1278 times:

Roberson - what twaddle! In the event of something like windshear/microburst you'll need every pound of thrust and three engines will always be better than two in that context.

Matt D - sorry, but I have to disagree with you - and on the basis of one word.

ETOPS.

ETOPS certification is issued to individual airlines, and there are plenty around that do not come up to scratch. On that basis, they cannot operate ETOPS aircraft. Furthermore, pax are still very nervous about flying with just two engines on long overwater flights - three is an absolute minimum for them.

I'm sure you have seen the Airbus A340 print ad which shows a stormy Pacific and the strapline "Aren't you glad you're sitting between four engines?" Ironic really given the A330!!

The first time an ETOPS aircraft goes down - and it will - then there will be hell to pay and everyone will be rolling out trijet designs again. In fact, watch for Boeing offering a trijet version of its 777 in the near future...


User currently offlineDeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1249 times:

In fact, watch for Boeing offering a trijet version of its 777 in the near future...

NOW THIS ONE TAKES THE CAKE. Ceilidh..... please. Please affirm that your IQ is at least 10 and tell us that you didn't really expect anybody to buy that kind of horse shit.

You are absolutely amazing. I suppose you've talked to Phil Condit and Alan Mulally about this and they're designing it. And your contacts on Wall Street are financing it. And CO, after it takes over DL, is going to be the launch customer, along with CalWings.

Please. This is ridiculous. The 777 is the most efficient aircraft of its class. And you're telling us that Boeing is going to screw it up by adding a third engine?

More misinformation from Ceildh.... but it's quite obvious that this one is pure fantasy.

Thanks for the laugh Ceilidh.

DeltaSFO



It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1249 times:

DeltaSFO - please try and restrain yourself from being a complete plonker the whole time.    

In fact, do you even know what ETOPS is and what it entails? Nope? Thought not!

Oh yes, and whilst we're at it, let's have an apology re the DALPA page as well...
:D  


User currently offlineDeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1234 times:

As a matter of fact, I do know what Extended Twin engine OPerations certification is, and the 777 was delivered to UA already ETOPS certified.

With 207 minute ETOPS not too far away, and 240 minutes on the horizon, the final nail will be in the coffin of trijets, and eventually, quads.

So come up with some new fantasies and share them here, would you? They make for great entertainment.

Also, please explain why you always ignore those who bring up your credibility as an issue. You are quick to accuse, but slow to defend yourself.... that speaks volumes.

DeltaSFO



It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8507 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1224 times:

Just sit back and watch 2-3 years from now when Boeing launches a more efficient trijet competitor to the A380. The final revenge of McDonnel Douglas (I wish) with 5% superior seat mile costs. Yeah!

Meanwhile, I'm willing to fly twins over the Atlantic, but no way am I going to flying one to Asia across the Pacific. I might to Hawaii, but by God as long as they're around I'll fly a Cathay Pacific A340 or a Delta MD-11, not a UA/AA/Delta 777. Three hours on an airplane with just one functioning engine, limping towards land over very cold water would be a nightmare. The same incident in a 747 wouldn't be half as frightening.


User currently offlineRoberson From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1200 times:

There was a post recently which argued to the contrary. If you don't believe me, check. That was the basis for my previous arguement. An accident which strengthens this point is the DFW Delta crash in 1985 involving the L-1011. After the accident, trijets began to be known for having difficulty recovering from windshear and other similar stressful conditions.

User currently offlineAirfun From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1191 times:

I recently purchased a book about the MD80, not because of the controversy covered here, however, as I explore which aircraft I find the most appealing this has to be it- it one of the most sexy aircraft around (for lack of better term).

User currently offlineTrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3237 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1146 times:

There seems to be justification for the issue of trijets and their difficulty in recovering from windshear. Do not forget the Pan Am 727 which crashed in Kenner, near New Orleans, in 1984 (I think) and the Eastern 727 in JFK in 1975, both undone by microbursts. In fact, at the time of the latter crash an Allegheny DC-9 ahead in the landing line survived the burst and landed safely while an Eastern TriStar which followed survived but could not land and the pilot had to pull up the throttle and return skyward. The ill-fated 727 immediately followed this TriStar. Along with the Delta accident, this speaks volumes.

Trintocan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineDesmidus From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1135 times:

Trijets are done. As for quads being replaced in the foreseeable future by decendants of the 777, that I highly doubt. There will be more efficient engines making quads economically competitive to their twin counterparts, and despite the whole argument, and the ETOPS affair, quads are safer on transpacific routes.

User currently offlineRoberson From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1135 times:

Airfun-
LOL when thinking about "sexy" airplanes. I've never considered them from that angle.

Ceilidh- Take a look at the comment from Trintocan. He has some more good info about this topic. Both he and I agree that trijets suffer more from windshear than their counterparts. I'm pretty sure that there was a discussion before that talked about this issue.


User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1116 times:

Roberson,

"poor handling with three engines as comapred to two..."

Your statement about windshear is...wrong.

You wanna explain that?


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