AF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4 Posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3324 times:
I sure this has been talked about in the past but I wasn't here so...
For all you Toronto/Ontario aviation guys/gals what do you think of the proposed Pickering Airport. I personally severely dislike the GTAA and don't want to see them have another airport. Also the airport I do my flight training at (Buttonville) would probably close if this happens. I want to see a YYZ reliever if it isn't owned by the GTAA and the fees aren't so damn high.
Pnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 12 Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3320 times:
No chance since the GTAA already is in control of Pickering. Some of the business users will object very strongly about moving to Pickering. So some way may be found to keep Buttonville alive but none is yet on the horizon.
MattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 11 Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3262 times:
Quoting AF340 (Thread starter): Also the airport I do my flight training at (Buttonville) would probably close if this happens.
How likely would that be, given that there's a considerable investment being made to put in a new control tower at YKZ?
As to Pickering? The land has been expropriated, and, as our esteemed PM is fond of saying as of late, it's time to fish or cut bait with regards to a reliever airport for Toronto. If Pickering isn't willing, I'm sure we can find some other community willing to take it on.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
Brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 3276 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3242 times:
Mirabel...er Pickering is not a solution to YYZ. It would take years to design and build and the costs associated with a brand new airport would be astronomical.
Was there not a plan to redevelop Oshawa's airport and make it eventually a secondary airport to YYZ?
Connecting would be a nightmare. Try driving across the 401 from Pickering/Oshawa to Pearson during the daytime, I hope that you have an extra three hours to waste.(total time,not just drive time) Then checking in at YYZ and going through security again. This is akin to flying into JFK only to have to go to LGA to connect flights.
With all the improvements (I use the term loosely) at YYZ and millions of $$'s being spent at that airport I don't think the government will be willing to pony up the coin for a new airport.
BlueSkys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3227 times:
Once again, YTZ is the best bet, you land and you are in Downtown Toronto.... Could not get a better location, sort of like Kai Tak. Once Miller is out they can do some dredging and extend the runways to accommodate some larger airplanes.
There is no other location that makes sense, Oshawa is to far, Pickering is to far..... Who the heck wants to fly to Pickering anyways???
Yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15999 posts, RR: 59 Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3224 times:
Pickering is a bad idea, for several reasons:
1. It's simply not needed. YYZ has 5 runways and plenty of terminal capacity (and room for more).
2. It's more cost effective to add to YYZ than an all-new airport at Pickering.
3. The majority of growth in the GTA region is in the West which is where YYZ is. Pickering would arguably service only the slower growing Eastern burbs.
4. The hubbing capabilities of YYZ would be reduced if traffic was split betw 2 airports. Witness YUL/YMX in the 80's.
5. Local commuter traffic can be developed (further) at YTZ, YHM and Buttonville.
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
Pacifica From Canada, joined May 2006, 149 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3198 times:
Maybe it's just because it's my home airport, but I always thought that YKZ could serve as a nice little commuter airport for the locals in York Region, with service to maybe Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec, Chicago, and New York ala a Porter type service. With a large centralized population (250,000+ in Markham alone) and a ton of nearby hi-tech businesses, I think it could be viable. And there is still quite a bit of land unused on the site (although it would required buses to transport passengers to their planes from the terminal), probably enough for at least 6-8 commuter ATR72/Q400 size stands.
Although all the nearby residents would probably complain the idea away (even though the ATR makes less noise than Stronach's Falcons do).
AF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4 Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3135 times:
Quoting MattRB (Reply 4): How likely would that be, given that there's a considerable investment being made to put in a new control tower at YKZ?
They made it removable...
YKZ's licence expires in 2010 and that is when the GTAA will cease it's funding to it. I think that Toronto Airways Flight School, Seneca Flight College and MillionAir would split the bill each year if the GTAA stopped funding because they wouldn't want to pay the GTAA's high fees.
With all the condos and the island residents complaining , it will never happen. I wish it would but we are at the mercy of thousands of condo-people. They made a big stink about Q400's imagine 737s (or worse a 727 ). But imagine the spotting from the CN tower!
I guess YZD would be an okay location, if Bombardier would let it go... and it was expanded. It is relatively close to YYZ and although you would have to go on the hell that is the 401 it would be an okay connection. Whatever the case, I just don't want the GTAA to be involved.
Yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15999 posts, RR: 59 Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3079 times:
Quoting N1120A (Reply 10): The bridge really isn't what is holding up any expansion at YTZ. The issue is that it is penned in by water.
That's not it either. The current runway and facilities can easily handle much more traffic. In City Express' peak year (1989), YTZ handled about 550k pax to YUL, YOW and EWR. This dropped to about 40k pax in 2005 (with Jazz' reduced service). With 5 gates (as of December), and delivery of the 5th & 6th Q400's, Porter will possibly exceed the 550k pax mark in 2008.
Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 12): Dredging is a simple (expensive) solution, just make some new land to expand the runways.
Dredging involves an environmental assessment that will take years to get past, if it happens. Anyway, there is a permanent ban on anything but turboprops at YTZ (other than small business jets) so the Q400 is the largest commercial aircraft that can land there. Porter could fly to further destinations with a longer runway at YTZ but a longer runway will never happen.
Quoting AF340 (Reply 13): I wish it would but we are at the mercy of thousands of condo-people.
Oddly, the opposition to Porter and YTZ seems to have evaporated. We can look at Porter expanding as it sees fit, which is great.
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
BlueSkys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3022 times:
Quoting AF340 (Reply 13): With all the condos and the island residents complaining , it will never happen. I wish it would but we are at the mercy of thousands of condo-people. They made a big stink about Q400's imagine 737s (or worse a 727 ). But imagine the spotting from the CN tower!
LoL, I am one of those condo people. I would enjoy watching them land from my living room, but unfortunatly people would not all agree....
One thing all of the Condo people would agree on though is having a 1.5 min ride to the airport or a 10 min walk
ReidYYZ From Kyrgyzstan, joined Sep 2005, 536 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2998 times:
My theory is (not exclusively mine, maybe I read it somewhere and forgot the origin), Pickering isn't for now. It is for 20-30 years from now (or sooner) when YYZ is saturated. When the saturation of YZ happens, and it will, Pickering would be best to start fresh and close YZ. To keep them both operational and split the ops between the two, well, YUL/YMX all over again. It is a case of shit, or get off the pot. Before anyone says it, yes, YUL was supposed to close with YMX taking over. But that was a different time and different political environment and it is a whole other debate, quite covered in other threads ad nauseum.
YYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 823 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2991 times:
YZD would not really be able to expand even if Bombardier let it go. It's fenced in by Shepherd, The Allen Expressway, the 401 and Keele St. Another issue is that it sits right under the FAF for YYZ's 24 series rwys. We'd have to kick the military out though, they have an armoury there. A plus side to it however is it has subway access from Downsview Station. Oh Imagine the possibility.
Buttonville and City Center could absolutly ease some of the load from YYZ. However YYZ it's self has the space and with some more pavement on the ground it could easily handle more traffic. (Even so, we only really see holding patterns when the weather is bad) Upgrade to RNP airspace if we have not already, Get another Cat2/3 ILS and YYZ should be set.
as to fees, YYZ's fees would be lower if they could convince the government to lower the airport land rent fee.
Connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3892 posts, RR: 13 Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2938 times:
I'll put in my two cents as a non-GTA resident: Pickering is a bad idea.
As stated, it's on the wrong side of the area's economic growth. The GTAA would probably want to scale it to handle more than just regional service, and connections across Toronto would be a nightmare.
I believe a better solution would be to expand (modestly) either Buttonville or Oshawa so they can handle flights to YUL, YOW, YXU, etc. I don't believe you'll ever see runway expansion at YTZ, although there is no technical reason it can't be done. It's politics !