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Pickering Airport... Good Or Bad?  
User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4602 times:

I sure this has been talked about in the past but I wasn't here so...

For all you Toronto/Ontario aviation guys/gals what do you think of the proposed Pickering Airport. I personally severely dislike the GTAA and don't want to see them have another airport. Also the airport I do my flight training at (Buttonville) would probably close if this happens. I want to see a YYZ reliever if it isn't owned by the GTAA and the fees aren't so damn high.



AF340

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2224 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4598 times:

No chance since the GTAA already is in control of Pickering. Some of the business users will object very strongly about moving to Pickering. So some way may be found to keep Buttonville alive but none is yet on the horizon.

User currently offlineBlueSkys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4590 times:

If we can get all the people on the Island to shut up for a bit, we can build a bridge to to YTZ and do some expansion there.

I live downtown and that would be a GREAT location for a much busier airport... It wont happen though Sad

I see no point in Pickering happening, just expand YYZ or YTZ. And I sure as heck do not want to see YKZ close down, I fly there once in a while. Nice airport!


User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4561 times:

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 2):
If we can get all the people on the Island to shut up for a bit

How true... why would you want to live there anyway Wink I would only for the airport!

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 2):
expand YYZ or YTZ

YYZ a possibility. YTZ not. Mayor Miller for 4 more years...

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 2):
Nice airport!

I really like it. I find it quite funny that it is Canada's 8th busiest airport (aircraft movements).

AF340


User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4540 times:

Quoting AF340 (Thread starter):
Also the airport I do my flight training at (Buttonville) would probably close if this happens.

How likely would that be, given that there's a considerable investment being made to put in a new control tower at YKZ?

As to Pickering? The land has been expropriated, and, as our esteemed PM is fond of saying as of late, it's time to fish or cut bait with regards to a reliever airport for Toronto. If Pickering isn't willing, I'm sure we can find some other community willing to take it on.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4098 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4520 times:

Mirabel...er Pickering is not a solution to YYZ. It would take years to design and build and the costs associated with a brand new airport would be astronomical.

Was there not a plan to redevelop Oshawa's airport and make it eventually a secondary airport to YYZ?

Connecting would be a nightmare. Try driving across the 401 from Pickering/Oshawa to Pearson during the daytime, I hope that you have an extra three hours to waste.(total time,not just drive time) Then checking in at YYZ and going through security again. This is akin to flying into JFK only to have to go to LGA to connect flights.

With all the improvements (I use the term loosely) at YYZ and millions of $$'s being spent at that airport I don't think the government will be willing to pony up the coin for a new airport.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineBlueSkys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4505 times:

Once again, YTZ is the best bet, you land and you are in Downtown Toronto.... Could not get a better location, sort of like Kai Tak. Once Miller is out they can do some dredging and extend the runways to accommodate some larger airplanes.


There is no other location that makes sense, Oshawa is to far, Pickering is to far..... Who the heck wants to fly to Pickering anyways???  duck 


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16239 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4502 times:

Pickering is a bad idea, for several reasons:
1. It's simply not needed. YYZ has 5 runways and plenty of terminal capacity (and room for more).
2. It's more cost effective to add to YYZ than an all-new airport at Pickering.
3. The majority of growth in the GTA region is in the West which is where YYZ is. Pickering would arguably service only the slower growing Eastern burbs.
4. The hubbing capabilities of YYZ would be reduced if traffic was split betw 2 airports. Witness YUL/YMX in the 80's.
5. Local commuter traffic can be developed (further) at YTZ, YHM and Buttonville.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinePacifica From Canada, joined May 2006, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4476 times:

Maybe it's just because it's my home airport, but I always thought that YKZ could serve as a nice little commuter airport for the locals in York Region, with service to maybe Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec, Chicago, and New York ala a Porter type service. With a large centralized population (250,000+ in Markham alone) and a ton of nearby hi-tech businesses, I think it could be viable. And there is still quite a bit of land unused on the site (although it would required buses to transport passengers to their planes from the terminal), probably enough for at least 6-8 commuter ATR72/Q400 size stands.

Although all the nearby residents would probably complain the idea away (even though the ATR makes less noise than Stronach's Falcons do).

But alas, one can only dream right?


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16239 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4473 times:

Air Atlantic (operating as a CP commuter carrier) used to operate Dash 8's from YKZ to YOW/YUL in the late 80's.


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26338 posts, RR: 76
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4454 times:

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 2):
If we can get all the people on the Island to shut up for a bit, we can build a bridge to to YTZ and do some expansion there.

I live downtown and that would be a GREAT location for a much busier airport... It wont happen though

The bridge really isn't what is holding up any expansion at YTZ. The issue is that it is penned in by water.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 7):
5. Local commuter traffic can be developed (further) at YTZ, YHM and Buttonville.

Not to mention farther out airports that serve communities that currently use YYZ heavily. Think YKF



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4413 times:

Quoting MattRB (Reply 4):
How likely would that be, given that there's a considerable investment being made to put in a new control tower at YKZ?

They made it removable...

YKZ's licence expires in 2010 and that is when the GTAA will cease it's funding to it. I think that Toronto Airways Flight School, Seneca Flight College and MillionAir would split the bill each year if the GTAA stopped funding because they wouldn't want to pay the GTAA's high fees.

AF340


User currently offlineBlueSkys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4397 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
The issue is that it is penned in by water

Dredging is a simple (expensive) solution, just make some new land to expand the runways. The new Hong Kong airport is on a completely man mad island.


User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4381 times:

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 12):

With all the condos and the island residents complaining  Yeah sure , it will never happen. I wish it would but we are at the mercy of thousands of condo-people. They made a big stink about Q400's imagine 737s (or worse a 727  Wow!). But imagine the spotting from the CN tower!

I guess YZD would be an okay location, if Bombardier would let it go... and it was expanded. It is relatively close to YYZ and although you would have to go on the hell that is the 401 it would be an okay connection. Whatever the case, I just don't want the GTAA to be involved.


AF340


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16239 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4357 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
The bridge really isn't what is holding up any expansion at YTZ. The issue is that it is penned in by water.

That's not it either. The current runway and facilities can easily handle much more traffic. In City Express' peak year (1989), YTZ handled about 550k pax to YUL, YOW and EWR. This dropped to about 40k pax in 2005 (with Jazz' reduced service). With 5 gates (as of December), and delivery of the 5th & 6th Q400's, Porter will possibly exceed the 550k pax mark in 2008.

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 12):
Dredging is a simple (expensive) solution, just make some new land to expand the runways.

Dredging involves an environmental assessment that will take years to get past, if it happens. Anyway, there is a permanent ban on anything but turboprops at YTZ (other than small business jets) so the Q400 is the largest commercial aircraft that can land there. Porter could fly to further destinations with a longer runway at YTZ but a longer runway will never happen.

Quoting AF340 (Reply 13):
I wish it would but we are at the mercy of thousands of condo-people.

Oddly, the opposition to Porter and YTZ seems to have evaporated. We can look at Porter expanding as it sees fit, which is great.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4355 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14):
Oddly, the opposition to Porter and YTZ seems to have evaporated

That's great but that's because the Q400s are so quiet. I think it'll be different if they let bigger jet aircraft into the airport.


AF340


User currently offlineBlueSkys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4300 times:

Quoting AF340 (Reply 13):
With all the condos and the island residents complaining , it will never happen. I wish it would but we are at the mercy of thousands of condo-people. They made a big stink about Q400's imagine 737s (or worse a 727 ). But imagine the spotting from the CN tower!

LoL, I am one of those condo people. I would enjoy watching them land from my living room, but unfortunatly people would not all agree....

One thing all of the Condo people would agree on though is having a 1.5 min ride to the airport or a 10 min walk  Smile


User currently offlineReidYYZ From Kyrgyzstan, joined Sep 2005, 536 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4276 times:

My theory is (not exclusively mine, maybe I read it somewhere and forgot the origin), Pickering isn't for now. It is for 20-30 years from now (or sooner) when YYZ is saturated. When the saturation of YZ happens, and it will, Pickering would be best to start fresh and close YZ. To keep them both operational and split the ops between the two, well, YUL/YMX all over again. It is a case of shit, or get off the pot. Before anyone says it, yes, YUL was supposed to close with YMX taking over. But that was a different time and different political environment and it is a whole other debate, quite covered in other threads ad nauseum.

User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1051 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4269 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

YZD would not really be able to expand even if Bombardier let it go. It's fenced in by Shepherd, The Allen Expressway, the 401 and Keele St. Another issue is that it sits right under the FAF for YYZ's 24 series rwys. We'd have to kick the military out though, they have an armoury there. A plus side to it however is it has subway access from Downsview Station. Oh Imagine the possibility.

Buttonville and City Center could absolutly ease some of the load from YYZ. However YYZ it's self has the space and with some more pavement on the ground it could easily handle more traffic. (Even so, we only really see holding patterns when the weather is bad) Upgrade to RNP airspace if we have not already, Get another Cat2/3 ILS and YYZ should be set.

as to fees, YYZ's fees would be lower if they could convince the government to lower the airport land rent fee.



DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineSwissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

Well if you ask the airlines @ YYZ, the answer is simple: BAD.................. as Pickering is on the wrong side of YYZ.

Cheers,


User currently offlineBlueSkys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 18):
A plus side to it however is it has subway access from Downsview Station. Oh Imagine the possibility.

A new Subway?  pray 


User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4216 times:

I'll put in my two cents as a non-GTA resident: Pickering is a bad idea.

As stated, it's on the wrong side of the area's economic growth. The GTAA would probably want to scale it to handle more than just regional service, and connections across Toronto would be a nightmare.

I believe a better solution would be to expand (modestly) either Buttonville or Oshawa so they can handle flights to YUL, YOW, YXU, etc. I don't believe you'll ever see runway expansion at YTZ, although there is no technical reason it can't be done. It's politics !



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4185 times:

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 20):
A new Subway?

We can't pay for the ones we have now... Wink

AF340


User currently offlineBlueSkys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4155 times:

Quoting AF340 (Reply 22):
We can't pay for the ones we have now...

A good reason to re-elect Miller AGAIN!!! and raise every T.O tax again! Of Course, with no benefit to the Torontonian! or Toronto for that matter.  Wink


User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4145 times:

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 23):
A good reason to re-elect Miller AGAIN!!! and raise every T.O tax again! Of Course, with no benefit to the Torontonian! or Toronto for that matter.

It is hard to believe that Lastman was actually better...
If they do expand YTZ, I will buy a condo as close to the airport as possible. I'll be the next AirNikon!

AF340


25 Post contains images Yyz717 : I'm one of those harbourfront people, and I alos like seeing the Q400's land at YTZ. Define "saturation". By any definition (including massive traffi
26 Lnglive1011yyz : Good luck. Airports are like Dump's in the public's mind. (Dump as in garbage dump). No one wants one in their backyard. Everyone here should go read
27 BE77 : Oshawa and Hamilton both make more sense as relievers - as megalopolis grows, it makes less sense to drive (or subway as discussed) through all the me
28 ReidYYZ : As per the GTAA's master plan, with a sixth Rwy open, the aircraft movement capacity at YYZ will max out projected in the year 2020 with approx. 660,
29 Pnwtraveler : The east side of Toronto is growing in leaps and bounds. So some relief on from that side of the city even for GA and some smaller commuter airlines w
30 Jamincan : Didn't Bearskin serve YKZ from YOW for awhile?
31 Pacifica : Yeah. I think it lasted a little over a year or two, and I never really did find out why they ended the service. Although it must have been tough to
32 Yyz717 : None of this means "saturation". LGW handles more pax than YYZ with just one runway. LHR handles more than double the current YYZ traffic with just 2
33 Post contains images Pnwtraveler : I agree that it will take a long time for yyz's capacity to be reached. I think a relief airport has more to do with highway congestion than airport c
34 Brilondon : Mel Lastman's subway along Sheppard could conceivably be extended over to YYZ I guess, but the CN line runs on the northern perimeter of YYZ and woul
35 Pnwtraveler : I agree Brilondon except the Subway would bring people from all over the city not just downtown. If the rail line ever gets built and links up with th
36 ReidYYZ : You'll have to excuse me, the most current numbers I could find are: LGW-263000 movements. LHR-477000 movements and YYZ-417000 movements. All 2006 fi
37 Cruiser : I am one of them too and I love sitting there and watching the Q400's as I sit in my living room. Too bad they didn't clean the windows more often in
38 Heathrow : If they wont let us have BAe146's cos of noise poloution, how the hell do you think they're going to feel about a 763? They are both way out of Toron
39 Yyz717 : A more accurate picture of airport capacity is by pax count, not movements. Anyway, by either count, YYZ is decades or generations from maxing out. R
40 ReidYYZ : You asked me for my definition of saturation. I thought I was pretty clear with: I'm still waiting for yours. To now change to "more accurate picture
41 BlueSkys : You could not be more right, someone from Mississauga for example, has a 2.5 hour PT ride to downtown unless they take the GO which is not always the
42 MattRB : They operate simultaneously all the time. Usually 24L is the inbound arrivals and 24R is operating as the outbound departures with 23 doing double du
43 Yyz717 : You have not stated facts. You have just parroted the GTAA assumptions without any analysis at all. Under no reasonable review can anyone conclude de
44 WA707atMSP : In the early '90s, I remember a commuter airline flew from Oshawa to (of all places) DET. Has any other airline offered scheduled service from Oshawa?
45 Yyz717 : Only cargo ops to my knowledge on a sked basis. Is there a terminal for suitable operations? I'm surprised that NW has not added YHM or YTZ yet.
46 Lnglive1011yyz : Yes, there is. Albeit a very very tiny one. 1011yyz
47 Hmmmm... : How can anyone poo-poo Pickering as being too far away from Pearson, or on the "wrong side of the growth", yet advocate Oshawa, much, much further awa
48 Pnwtraveler : If you check the stats towns such as Ajax, Pickering and Uxbridge to the north are rapidly expanding and in crisis because they don't have the social
49 ReidYYZ : Well, I'm back on. Like a good train wreck, I can't look away. True, but the 210M separation is for simultaneous arrivals and simultaneous departures.
50 LailaiYYZ : CNU8 (Markham), which I train at, will probably close as well as it is directly under the approach path of the proposed runway.. Also the Clairemont
51 Post contains images AF340 : I like having these small airports, but it would be good experience to fly with Jet traffic so... Or if the schools move to Pickering, over a nuclear
52 Pacifica : But the idea is that Pickering wouldn't be needed if we expanded some of the local airports. Right now Pearson attracts travellers (by car, bus, trai
53 Post contains images Hmmmm... : How can anyone suggest that we divert some YYZ traffic to Barrie or Kitchener when they are much, much further away from Pearson than Pickering? Incre
54 Pacifica : Actually maybe you didn't quite understand what I am saying. The fact is, YYZ is eventually (whether that is in 10, 20, or 50 years) going to reach c
55 Pnwtraveler : Pacifica you are right but fortunately or unfortunately downtown is also growing dramatically. The Condo boom continues with a huge area of condos cal
56 YYZatcboy : Even so, His point still stands. With down town growing, if we see increased service from YHM/Waterloo/Buttonville, that leaves more room for people d
57 Brilondon : Where would they expand to? Not having a terminal 2 is just semantics. By the way, I thought you were from England, welcome to Canada.
58 Jamincan : There are a few problems I could see with expanding service to those smaller GA airports in the Toronto area. None of them really have any place to ex
59 Hmmmm... : Why are people talking about Buttonville? Buttonville is a hemmed in little nothing of an airport that has no runway to accommodate anything larger th
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