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Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.  
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7359 posts, RR: 85
Posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3097 times:
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Since 2000, pilot pay has jumped nearly 50 percent, compared with an increase of 4 percent at rival American.

 boggled 

Best of luck to them.

article


Comments welcome.

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2991 times:

Damn, Southwest Pilots earn an average of $166,000 bucks, that seems a little overstated. I would think that is for pilots atleast in their 10th year or so who care Captains. Question is how long can WN sustain this?  scratchchin 


"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2964 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 1):
Damn, Southwest Pilots earn an average of $166,000 bucks, that seems a little overstated. I would think that is for pilots atleast in their 10th year or so who care Captains. Question is how long can WN sustain this?

In case you missed or just chose to omit the fact, they are also the most productive pilots in the US industry. Please get your facts straight!

BTW, the figure quoted is the average of ALL pilots!


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2958 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 2):
they are also the most productive pilots in the US industry. Please get your facts straight!

where did I say anything to oppose that statement? I was just shocked that the "average" pay is that high, and BTW what is defined as a "productive pilot"? I know that WN is one of the most profitable airlines in the world.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2945 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 3):
where did I say anything to oppose that statement? I was just shocked that the "average" pay is that high, and BTW what is defined as a "productive pilot"? I know that WN is one of the most profitable airlines in the world.

My point was you chose to omit the fact the article also mentioned they were the "most productive" pilots. It's called omission. Productivity can be defined in several ways. If you look at revenue/employee that's one, the other is average block hours/month. In either case, they're the most productive.

Sorry to hear you're "shocked". What did you expect?


User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 983 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2712 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 4):
My point was you chose to omit the fact the article also mentioned they were the "most productive" pilots. It's called omission. Productivity can be defined in several ways. If you look at revenue/employee that's one, the other is average block hours/month. In either case, they're the most productive.

Sorry to hear you're "shocked". What did you expect?

Are you a WN driver? Relax buddy, i don't think he was trying to take anything away from Southwest pilots, if anything I think he was complimenting. WN holding the bar benefits all of us.



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2670 times:

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 5):
Southwest pilots, if anything I think he was complimenting. WN holding the bar benefits all of us.

My point exactly, WN should be praised for the way they've been profitable since the beginning, the only grudge I hold against them is that they dont seem to be hiring near my home airport  duck 



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26795 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2629 times:

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 5):

Are you a WN driver?

He flies 747s for Singapore Air



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8766 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2595 times:

How many hours do they fly a month? Is it more than legacies? Is it more than airlines such as Republic or Mesa? Those are also airlines that fly advanced glass cockpit twinjets. What are we talking here, 100 hrs?

User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5702 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2584 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
How many hours do they fly a month? Is it more than legacies? Is it more than airlines such as Republic or Mesa? Those are also airlines that fly advanced glass cockpit twinjets. What are we talking here, 100 hrs?

They are guaranteed minimum 78 hours in a line, and 79 on reserve.

So I'd imagine it goes higher then 100 when they pick up trips or do trades and such.

Keep in mind, that they go by trips, which equal 55 minutes, its not a true Hour.

a WN PIlot can explain more here...

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7359 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2504 times:
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Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 2):
BTW, the figure quoted is the average of ALL pilots!

In my introduction, I never stated it wasn't an average - to clarify.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 4):
"most productive" pilots

This is my choice. At AMR, pilots would fly more if asked.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 9):
goes higher then 100

I know several pilots at WN very well. Doug Webb flys out of HOU as a Sr. Captain and often goes over 100 hrs per bid.

Good luck to WN.


User currently offlineKstatepilot From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2418 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 9):

So I'd imagine it goes higher then 100

You can't fly more than 100 hours per month as per the FAR's
8 hours between rest
30 hours per week
100 hours per month
1000 hours per year


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2357 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 4):
the other is average block hours/month. In either case, they're the most productive.

Then why is it that NWA's narrowbody pilots, and most notably several RJ hopper airlines (Mesa specifically) are running into problems where their pilots bump into the 100/month threshhold on a near monthly basis? They would have to be by far the most productive at this point and moreso than WN. As a matter of fact so productive that it is killing the operations of the respective airlines by the time you get beyond the 20th of the month.


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7359 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2337 times:
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Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 12):
100/month threshhold on a near monthly basis?

Isn't it per bid? A pilot can protect his schedule and do a fly over on a beginning month; in theory this would put him, potentially, over 100 hrs in a calendar month.


 twocents 

PS. Threshold has one h.

 rotfl 


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

Quoting FXramper (Reply 13):
Isn't it per bid?

If you spread your flying out over 2 calendar months, then yes... but then if you're doing that you're NOT hitting 100 per calendar month.

The problem at places like Mesa is that the pilots are being overflown to the point that they run into the Federally mandated 100 per month limit. And it happens month after month after month. If that ain't "productive" from an hours flown per month basis, then I don't know what is. When the Feds said "No more!" there is no more.


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7359 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2329 times:
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Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 14):
When the Feds said "No more!" there is no more.

I know it happens. I've chatted with my uncle about it. Unless there is an audit performed, it will and does continue to happen.

AA got slammed a few years ago on it.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2321 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 12):
They would have to be by far the most productive at this point and moreso than WN. As a matter of fact so productive that it is killing the operations of the respective airlines by the time you get beyond the 20th of the month.

But how is that productive? An airline can't do all it's flying for the month by the 20th. At WN, SWALPA and the company have agreed on a way of keeping staffing levels at a reasonable level and having pilots fly the max possible. That's productivity. The problem at NW and Meas isn't max hours it's much more complicated than that. At NW it was the physical demands of the scheduling, for example minimum layovers, fatiguing pairings that caused sick leave to sky rocket. Mesa has turnover problems.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 13):
Isn't it per bid? A pilot can protect his schedule and do a fly over on a beginning month; in theory this would put him, potentially, over 100 hrs in a calendar month.

Under the FARS it's monthly. Remember there are flying hours and credit hours. A pilot can have over 100 credit hours in a month but be below 100 flying hours.


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7359 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2299 times:
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Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 16):
Under the FARS it's monthly. Remember there are flying hours and credit hours. A pilot can have over 100 credit hours in a month but be below 100 flying hours.

I stand corrected. There are a lot of rules, and I'm a lowly ramp manager with a ppl, i-rating, and m/e rating - you are correct Mr SQ 744.

 yes 

Back on topic a bit - What does WN pilots union hope to accomplish?

Curious?


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6965 posts, RR: 76
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2232 times:

Isn't WN's pilot pay scheme also have a big component that is based on company profitability? I was told their salaries aren not big, but they win big in the profit sharing. Not sure how that changed in the 94 talks, and not sure how it's going to change this time round, coz it's in everyone's interest to make sure their people are paid well but the company remain profitable.

The concern was raised with Kelleher's retirement on how this was going to continue and how the "spirit" was going to continue.

At least both sides are still committed to that but with increasing cost pressures from fuel, it's gonna be hard on both sides.

That 166k USD p.a. is just salary or including productivity and profit sharing bonuses?

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 983 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2135 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 5):

Are you a WN driver?

He flies 747s for Singapore Air

Well, he seems awfully 'invested' in WN.



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17824 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2122 times:

WN has some major cost/revenue issues creeping up on them and this is obviously one of them so it'll be very interesting to see how this proceeds. It sounds like no one is in a real hurry though.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAsuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2104 times:

Quoting FXramper (Reply 13):
Isn't it per bid? A pilot can protect his schedule and do a fly over on a beginning month; in theory this would put him, potentially, over 100 hrs in a calendar month.

It depends on the contract. There are a number of ways a pilot can get paid for over 100 hours per month.

1.) Some airlines have duty and trip rigs which pay pilots based on credit hours not just FAA block hours. So there is potential for a pilot to be paid for over 100 hours per month.

2.) Pilot is assigned trip with pay protection, flight cancels. Later in the month the pilot picks up open time on days off. So he gets paid for the flight that canceled and the open time trip.

3.) Also I do believe dead heading only counts against the 14 hour duty day, but not the 8 hour flying limit.


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
How many hours do they fly a month?

I'm curious. How many takeoffs and landings do WN drivers make in a month vs others.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 10):
At AMR, pilots would fly more if asked.

I'd bet a beer tab the AMR pilots wouldn't do anything if asked right now.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8766 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1997 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 22):

I'm curious. How many takeoffs and landings do WN drivers make in a month vs others.

Oh, probably more than most mainline pilots. But, probably not as many as RJ pilots. WN has a shorter stage length than other mainline airlines, which means more flights per aircraft per day.

If we say WN has an average stage length of 700 miles / 2 hrs block time, we can say a WN pilot will make 50 departures in 100 hrs of flying. Or more likely, 40 departures in 80 hours.

Another airline like UA might have a 767 pilot fly 80 hours at an average stage length of 2,000 mi or 5 hours. This would give 16 departures per month.

But again, it varies and I imagine 1 pilot could do 60-70 departures in a month at WN if he or she planned that many short-hop flights of 1 hr or so scheduled time.

[Edited 2007-11-05 09:38:45]

User currently offlineFlyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1962 times:

Heres a chart from the MIT Airline Data Project that depicts block hours flown by major/legacy/lcc carrier pilots:

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/D...onthly%20Block%20Hours%20Flown.htm

[Edited 2007-11-05 09:51:18]


These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
25 Tugger : Remember that Southwest pilots also do more things like checking the cabin than many pilot groups and this does not affect their flight hours. This is
26 XJET : I am sure that doesn't take a lot of things into account. Things like reserve pilots and vacation time probably weren't figured in. I know the averag
27 N77014 : They are also the best capitalized and enjoy the highest credit rating of any airline in the market today. They are well prepared to make changes to
28 DTWAGENT : Questions here? Are the F/A's in a union? If so/or not so when are they going to be at the table to bargin for more money. I know they get paid by per
29 Flyf15 : Its not that Southwest has gone beyond the majors, its that the majors all took huge hits. Huge hits that Southwest didn't have to take because of the
30 MaverickM11 : And WN never had to deal with regulation
31 N1120A : That isn't efficient then, now is it? After the major cuts at the legacy carriers, WN's base salaries jumped up toward the top of the industry. Profi
32 Atrude777 : I think that changed to block time which is every trip=55 minutes, due to the lowest block time being RSW-MCO, and most definetly is under 245 miles
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