KSMOGeNe From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 51 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14146 times:
Hi all, this is my first posting to the forum, though I've been reading for many years.
I was recently talking to some United pilots before take-off about the Channel 9 system, and they said that on occasion they were required to turn it off for "security reasons."
Does anyone know what these reasons might be? Since they are all publicly accessible channels (i.e. you can pick up the signal if you have a scanner), there isn't anything on the airwaves that is that sensitive.
I can perhaps understand them wanting to turn it off if they are discussing a potential emergency on the flight, so as not to scare other passengers.
Also, certain United pilots apparently don't like having Channel 9 on at all...is that common?
Goldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5427 posts, RR: 12 Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14144 times:
Generally, they'll turn it off for anything that the crew deems of special interest. Since, as a passenger, you are actually onboard the flight at the time, it would not be wise for the crew to scare their passengers.
Quoting KSMOGeNe (Thread starter): Also, certain United pilots apparently don't like having Channel 9 on at all...is that common?
The Channel 9 feed comes via the observer's panel. Sometimes that goes inop.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
Dispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1185 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14132 times:
When I worked at UA, I asked a captain on a flight I was flying on if Ch 9 could be on, he refused stating "nope, too many damned lawyers out there."
Plus, if any flight on the frequency has an emergency, they'll usually turn it off so as not to spook the pax.
TK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4103 posts, RR: 13 Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 14020 times:
I was on couple of UA flights last week and it was a pleasure to have the channel on both flights. Taking off from LGA, the captain asked the tower if he could have two more minutes holding short. The tower reluctantly, granted, don't know why but it didn't last two minutes, we were off.
Later on the same flight I could see the pilot coming off the cockpit and using the restroom, when ATC asked our flight if it is smooth at our altitude. When our FO was saying " yes it is pretty smooth.." we hit some serious bumps, he goes; "well, I take that back" and we went down to 26,000 for smoother air.
On our second flight, we had a lady in charge up front. At one point she was asked to go up to 34, and after doing that,
she called back and said "could i go back to 32" and she was OK'ed.
Both my flights Channel 9 was on from take-off to landing.
SkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 14011 times:
The crew you were flying with may have had it off because they didn't want people in back to hear them. That way they don't have to remember to be nice on the radio.
UAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3355 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13997 times:
More often than not on the flights I have been on with UA, CH9 was on. My two most memorable events when it was on was firstly the first day the Star Alliance came into force in 1997 IIRC correctly. I was on a UA 777 that was holding on the taxiway when an AC747 went past us and hit our wing....Our captain came on the Radio and said to the AC Captian that you have hit our aircraft...he said he didn't and all those who wer listening on CH9 screamed..."oh yes you did!"...Its funny now but at the time it was a apin as of course our flight was cancelled!
The secon time was flying back from HKG to SFO, we were at cruising altitude and the Flightdeck advise us that we were a very close to I think Fosset doing a round the world record flight in his Balloon. We could not of course see them but our flightdeck conversed with him and on behalf on United wished him all the best....that was very special.
I think in general only a very few crews dont have CH9 on..thank god!
Mcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1275 posts, RR: 17 Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13995 times:
Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 4): The crew you were flying with may have had it off because they didn't want people in back to hear them. That way they don't have to remember to be nice on the radio.
That is definitely not the case. We do not alter our tone or dialect with controllers due to CH9 being on. CH9 is an excellent tool however there are certain occasions that it will be switched off. Please allow the crew to turn this off without question. It is a special treat and may not always be appropriate.
There are many issues that could cause a crew to turn this off. When the airport is reporting Windshear I will generally switch it off, big line of Tstorms to avoid I switch it off, low visibility operations also. There are more, but those come to mind quickly. Often if someone is listening they will misinterpret what is being said as a hazard and it can lead to a misunderstanding of the state of the airplane in the passengers mind.
Halls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 13940 times:
Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 2): Plus, if any flight on the frequency has an emergency, they'll usually turn it off so as not to spook the pax.
Not always. I was sitting on the ground at IAD once and had a audio ringside seat to another aircraft that had declared an emergency.
Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 5): More often than not on the flights I have been on with UA, CH9 was on.
Same here. If anything, I've noticed an increase in the availabilty of CH 9 over the past year.
Quoting Mcdu (Reply 6): There are many issues that could cause a crew to turn this off. When the airport is reporting Windshear I will generally switch it off, big line of Tstorms to avoid I switch it off, low visibility operations also. There are more, but those come to mind quickly. Often if someone is listening they will misinterpret what is being said as a hazard and it can lead to a misunderstanding of the state of the airplane in the passengers mind.
Thanks for keeping it on when you do. it really helps pass the time - especially when the in flight movie is a POS.
Hiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2118 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 13829 times:
ahhh channel 9...the only thing better would be channel 9 and an external camera.....grin....would make every seat a window seat!!
Seriously....been on flts next to a fearful flyer.....little bumps and I had long nails dug into my arms. Got her to put on 9 and explained that the guy in the left front seat is the most fearful flyer of all....listen how he tries to avoid them....worked just fine!
ArcrftLvr From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 782 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13523 times:
Quoting TK787 (Reply 3): Taking off from LGA, the captain asked the tower if he could have two more minutes holding short. The tower reluctantly, granted, don't know why but it didn't last two minutes, we were off.
Later on the same flight I could see the pilot coming off the cockpit and using the restroom, when ATC asked our flight if it is smooth at our altitude. When our FO was saying " yes it is pretty smooth.." we hit some serious bumps, he goes; "well, I take that back" and we went down to 26,000 for smoother air.
On our second flight, we had a lady in charge up front. At one point she was asked to go up to 34, and after doing that,
she called back and said "could i go back to 32" and she was OK'ed.
Both my flights Channel 9 was on from take-off to landing.
Asuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2369 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13516 times:
Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 1): The Channel 9 feed comes via the observer's panel. Sometimes that goes inop.
I've been told if there is a check airmen or a jumpseater in the cockpit it will be turned off.
Goldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5427 posts, RR: 12 Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13494 times:
Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 10): I've been told if there is a check airmen or a jumpseater in the cockpit it will be turned off.
Not true. I've jumpsat plenty of times with it on, and the observer can still plug in the headphones, just not the microphone.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
N867BX From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 339 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 13226 times:
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19695 posts, RR: 56 Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 13060 times:
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 7): I was sitting on the ground at IAD once and had a audio ringside seat to another aircraft that had declared an emergency.
I've had the same thing at ORD. We got to the gate and I had to get off before it got resolved though.
Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 10): I've been told if there is a check airmen or a jumpseater in the cockpit it will be turned off.
I've been on a flight during which there was an FAA guy plus another jumpseater up front, and Channel 9 was still on. I actually got to hear the captain call maintenance to request a new FMC after we landed - apparently one of the ones in the plane wasn't displaying position on the moving map properly. The captain, by the way, was fantastic, and kept us up to date with clear but not dumbed down information about our delay from MSP (pipes had frozen in the plane due to a very cold overnight).
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 7): Thanks for keeping it on when you do. it really helps pass the time
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Platinumfoota From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 11815 times:
Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 2): When I worked at UA, I asked a captain on a flight I was flying on if Ch 9 could be on, he refused stating "nope, too many damned lawyers out there."
I have to second that. On my many talks with many pilots in UA the constant answer is "too many lawyers out there". The one thing i forget to ask is on my flights to the islands (HNL, KOA, OGG and LIH) Ch.9 is always turned off during the mid part of the flight, its on for about an hour then off then back on about 2 hours before landing.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 79 Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 11735 times:
Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 2): "nope, too many damned lawyers out there."
Which is a completely short sighted way of looking at things.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
Super80DFW From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 1637 posts, RR: 12 Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 11734 times:
Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 8): an external camera.....grin....would make every seat a window seat!!
fly bmi!
Right now there is an AA MD-80 flying over my house.
L1011 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1583 posts, RR: 10 Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 11693 times:
A couple of weeks ago, I was on a UA 737 from ORD to RIC, and the captain announced that there was a ball game on, and he would see if he could put it on channel 9. He said he knew that was the channel where people listen to cockpit communications, but he thought more people would be interested in the ball game, so that's what we got. I was very disappointed.
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 81 Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 11628 times:
Quoting KSMOGeNe (Thread starter): I was recently talking to some United pilots before take-off about the Channel 9 system, and they said that on occasion they were required to turn it off for "security reasons."
Does anyone know what these reasons might be? Since they are all publicly accessible channels (i.e. you can pick up the signal if you have a scanner), there isn't anything on the airwaves that is that sensitive.
I have no idea if this actually happens, but I can guess that they'd turn Channel 9 off if there were any security-critical flights in the area. Although you can pick up Channel 9 from the ground, under normal circumstances, passengers have no access to radio equipment in flight and the TSA is just paranoid enough to think that somebody would listen in on Channel 9 to plan some kind of security event when Air Force Two is flying through or something like that. Never underestimate how stupid TSA can be in the US.
I love Channel 9. Best part was landing at O'Hare when the tower ordered a go-around due to the previous aircraft not clearing the runway. Rather than going "what the !@$!?" I knew it was coming and got to savour the moment of a full thrust climb at very low weight. Fun times.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19695 posts, RR: 56 Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 11563 times:
Quoting Platinumfoota (Reply 15): The one thing i forget to ask is on my flights to the islands (HNL, KOA, OGG and LIH) Ch.9 is always turned off during the mid part of the flight, its on for about an hour then off then back on about 2 hours before landing.
Over the ocean, planes are out of radio contact with ATC due to the limitations of the horizon. That's for regular VHF radio, of course. They can use HF radio to make their position reports, but that has a lot of static, so it would be a pain for passengers to listen to on Channel 9 (and not much is said, even less with CPDLC's increased commonality). The pilots will also switch to the VHF air-to-air frequencies to talk to other pilots, but the conversation isn't exactly G-rated or relevant to flight, so Channel 9 will be switched off.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 16): Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 2):
"nope, too many damned lawyers out there."
Which is a completely short sighted way of looking at things.
Not really. The FAA has specific rules for what can be said over the radio. Those rules are frequently broken, but should something go wrong, a pilot (or controller) could be held liable for non-standard things they said, even if they weren't remotely related to the incident. For some, the chance of a lawsuit isn't worth it. It's a shame, and if I were a UA captain I'd think differently, but I can't really question their judgement on it.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 79 Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 11546 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 21): a pilot (or controller) could be held liable for non-standard things they said, even if they weren't remotely related to the incident.
No they wouldn't. Simply using non-standard phraseology would never meet even a summary judgment threshold.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
Halls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 11528 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 21): The FAA has specific rules for what can be said over the radio. Those rules are frequently broken, but should something go wrong, a pilot (or controller) could be held liable for non-standard things they said, even if they weren't remotely related to the incident. For some, the chance of a lawsuit isn't worth it. It's a shame, and if I were a UA captain I'd think differently, but I can't really question their judgement on it.
How would channel 9 being on or off make any difference? Since I assume FAA records all their controllers conversations, in the event of an incident, if a UA pilot or controller has said anything inappropriate, its going to be recorded.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19695 posts, RR: 56 Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 11444 times:
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23): How would channel 9 being on or off make any difference? Since I assume FAA records all their controllers conversations, in the event of an incident, if a UA pilot or controller has said anything inappropriate, its going to be recorded.
It doesn't even have to be a screwup on your part. All it takes is a "previous aircraft went around with a windshear alert" statement from the tower, and some passenger gets really nervous and sues for emotional distress. Would they win? Most likely not, as Alireza says, but you don't need that extra headache of having to get your own lawyer and fight it.
Like I said, I don't agree with that logic, but I can see where they're coming from.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
25 N1120A: The airlines already have lawyers, both in house and paid for by insurance companies, that will defend both airline and pilot in the event of an issu
26 Halls120: I'm sure United actually has licensed lawyers in their employ, and I suspect that they have reviewed their exposure for having CH 9 on. If there was
27 WarRI1: I just flew UA from Providence to Dulles and the flight attendant told me that it is up to the pilot as to whether channel 9 is on which it was not on
28 LuiePL: What about carrying a scanner on board? Obviously you can use it in-flight, but how discrete would you have to be during take off / landing? I would t
29 AlexPorter: This is one of those things that I believe airlines do not allow to be used at any time onboard, regardless of whether you are taking off or cruising
30 RDUDDJI: HDQLD yo!. No actually you can't. Radio devices are strictly prohibited at any time during flight. A few years ago I was on UA ORD-NRT, we were over
31 SQA350: I think they normally say that transmitting devices are not allowed to be used during the whole flight. An air-band receiver is not a transmitting de
32 Georgebush: Have you ever been in a car accident?? In the US the VERY next day your mail box is litterd with lawyers letters suggesting to "go after" the other p
34 Georgebush: Yes. Right when I turned 16 I got in my first (and only) wreck. The next day I had 6 letters from law offices who look up the accident reports and th
35 QF772: As an Insurance Broker I had a client once who got sued by someone who injured themselved climbing a fence breaking into their land on the basis that
36 QantasHeavy: CH 9 makes flying UA special... I would trade just about any IFE for CH9 any day... ha that is the best to listen to! I agree that there ARE too many
37 NorthstarBoy: I understand the desire not to freak out the passengers, who often don't understand the terminology, as a case in point, i was listening to Channel 9
38 QantasHeavy: Mountain wave and Leeward or Lee" waves are NO FUN. Imagine air currents going horizontally across the earth then bumping up to go over a mountain...
39 NorthstarBoy: thanks, QantasHeavy, for the great explanation, i can imagine it wasn't fun for the UPS guys who had to fly through it, that's what i like about Chann
40 N1120A: I have been involved in multiple car accidents, none of which were deemed my fault, and I have never once gotten a solicitation by an attorney for re
41 Georgebush: Do you practice law in the United States?? I am not saying a law-suit based on non standard phraseology. There are MANY scumbag lawyers in the United
42 N1120A: Show me where an obese person won a lawsuit, in the United States, against McDonald's
43 Cubsrule: It's highly state-dependent. In Illinois, for instance, it doesn't happen. In North Carolina, it even happens with speeding tickets (and I'm told it'
44 N1120A: Look, technically it is legal, because the Supreme Court said that the previous practice of limiting directed written advertising was an unconstituti
45 Cubsrule: Indeed. Many states also have ethics decisions that indirectly speak to the issue (although, as you pointed out, they can't ban it outright, and I'm
46 Mir: Unfortunately, not all lawyers are respectable. -Mir
47 Georgebush: Thanks. I was unsure of the states that did this. But if its serious enough in Indiana, lawyers will even turn up at your hospital bedside and try to
48 N1120A: That is absolutely and totally illegal. You claimed that people won a suit for such a thing. Are you retracting?
49 Hawaiian717: Recently I've been hearing it as "any device that can transmit or receive a signal".
50 Georgebush: No it isnt. If it was illegal, you would have other lawyers sueing them for it. I am not retracting, but I can't be botherd looking this information
51 N1120A: Direct, in person contact goes against the ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct. It also violates the rules of every single state bar association,
52 1011: I am Premier Exec on UA. On average Channel 9 is on about 75% of the time. I even had a pilot give a 5 min talk on channel 9 about turbulence, the 757
53 N1120A: I had that once as well, also on the 757. I hear that some captains do that as a way of mixing things up.
54 Georgebush: Im kinda bother that you think I am making this up. I have lived in IN for 17 years, been in an accident, and had parents/friends who have been in ac
55 N1120A: Well, it doesn't happen despite your insistence that it does, because direct solicitation of tort victims is pretty much the quickest way to get your
56 Ryu2: I once heard Air Force 2 on frequency on channel 9, in Chicago center, so I assume it's not a TSA requirement to turn it off.
57 Halls120: do you seriously think that just because it happens to be illegal under bar rules, that it doesn't happen? Here is but a sampling of State Bar discip
58 N1120A: I know that such violations do happen, but they are illegal and are dealt with seriously if they happen.
59 Charlienorth: I was in the jetway when a 737/300 was being deplaned,it had arrived after a lengthy ground hold in PHL and the folks who had connections were quite u
60 Halls120: Then why did you tell the OP "Well, it doesn't happen despite your insistence that it does?"
61 ADent: Radios typically use a heterodyne receiver - which means it generates its own frequency to tune in the desired frequency. For example in areas where r
62 Luv2cattlecall: Not to mention all the internal McDonalds memos acknowledging complaints from other customers who had the same issue, and the fact that they intentio
63 ChrisNH: One time several years ago (read: SEVERAL) I was on a UA DC-10 from Boston to Los Angeles and Ch 9 was on. We were lining up for our landing on one of
64 TheGreatChecko: As a pilot, having channel 9 on would be something I'd do, however, whenever anything abnormal happened, I'd probably turn it off. Its not the lawyers
65 Analog: What's he/she have to hide? How is that pilot going to prevent his/her voice from being recorded/archived by LiveATC? What about emotional distress b
66 Georgebush: Are/Were you an Indiana resident with an IN address?? If not, thats most likely the reason you wouldn't have had any letters in your letter box. Than
67 PHLstudent: The lawyers chasing people from car accidents isn't that basically the same principal as a lawyer being a "ambulance chaser" Its not illegal and its
68 Threepoint: Does that (the rolling eyes emoticon) indicate a yes or a no? That was a softening of your original stance and an exercise in flawed logic. What happ
69 SATX: I wish UA would take CH9 a little more seriously. In my experience there is very little to keep people flying one American airline over another and CH
70 Threepoint: For diehard enthusiasts, perhaps. And I mean, even more committed than the average a.net member. But to all but 2 or 3 occupants on most planes, that
71 Analog: I assume Ch9 has essentially zero cost. Even if it makes just a tiny percentage of pax lean more towards UA, it's a great investment. Say each flight
72 N1120A: That is only about targeted mailing. Direct contact is completely illegal. Fine. It doesn't happen legally and bar associations deal with it harshly.
73 Georgebush: Since when is 10% a good representation? California is one of the most liberal states in the US, and certainly does NOT give a 'good representation'.
74 BAW716: As much as I like to have CH 9 up when I fly UA (and I do ask if it is not up and if they say no, just say thank you), I can certainly understand Mcd
75 Remcor: You think a passenger that listens to Channel 9, as opposed listening to the various music channels or the movie, would understand a statement like t
76 Georgebush: Mate, people who are looking to sue come from all different walks of life. They don't necessarily even need to "freak out" they can just say that the
77 Remcor: My luggage just got sent to Vietnam of all places for 4 days after my flight was delayed 24 hours and the gate agent lied to me. You don't need chann
78 Gocaps16: Flew ORD-NRT and ch. 9 was ON throughout the entire flight, but conversation were very limited over the pacific. Just a lot of UPS and FedEx when we
79 N1120A: And every single one is subordinate to the federal constitution. No, that is not how it works.
80 UAL777: Conversation may have been limited because there are multiple frequencies for each center.
81 Highpeaklad: I listened and it scared me. It was SFO-ORD flt 842 (say) and heard flt 1502 (say) cleared for take off. Our 747 spooled up and took off, i thought wi
82 Georgebush: Yes, but unless you are in FEDERAL court, the county or state has the governing hand in the trial/case. It kills me that you fly a French flag next t
83 Cubsrule: Look, this isn't the place for a Constitutional law class, but two facts are important here. First, state courts are subject to the U.S. constitution
84 Cubsrule: Lest anyone else is following this spat about attorney solicitation of clients, here's the relevant Indiana ethics rule (it's rule 7.3 (a)).
85 Halls120: I believe the OP's point was not that direct solicitation is legal, but that it happens.
86 Ferengi80: In the incidents prior to the crash of UA flight 232 at SUX on July 19, 1989, the Captain and First Officer were so busy dealing with the emergency at
88 Threepoint: Your insults aside, I think you must recognise that we all deal with stress in different ways, and what upsets one person may not trouble another. I
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