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Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?  
User currently offlineSIBILLE From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 483 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7387 times:

I wonder why Tupolev Tu-334 and Antonov An-148 are not in airlines service yet. They flew for the first time a few years ago, they should have completed certification tests now and they have both a few orders.
Does someone know more?

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRoyalAirMaroc From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7364 times:

Possibly a political issue........the way russia treats its customers may also be an issue.....for example very recently russia banned LH cargo from flying in it airspace.....what if LH cargo operated russian metal TU's or AN's? i think they would have tried to stop parts being delivered and restrict service. This may also be a disadvantage to the sukhoi superjet.


Life is a Journey, One Which I hope will include alot of Flights !! =]
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3772 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7205 times:

Quoting RoyalAirMaroc (Reply 1):
Possibly a political issue.......

Very possible. First prototype of the TU-334 came in 1995, but according to wiki was only a mock-up with some avionics. First flight was in 1999, and there are like 50-60 orders for the plane, so I don't really see what the hold-up is. Perhaps Tupolev is waiting for more orders before even commencing production?

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineMIAMIx707 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7140 times:

The An-148 is a brand new airplane so it's prob too early to ask why isn't in service. The Tu-334 should've definitely be operating by now.

Those are the most interesting small twinjets I've ever seen. Hopefully they start flying soon. Look much better than those Embraers, A318s, etc which are kind of ugly...


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7060 times:

Russian airctraft are hopeless cases. They are inefficient to operate and simply don't sell, unless they get massive assistance in design, engineering, marketing and support from western firms.

Even then, it will be a high risk to order and operate such aircraft in a competetive environment. The Tu334 is an early 90 design, who will buy an such an old aircraft which still is not in production 12 years after the first flight.

Russia would be less than nothing without their raw materials and even that they cannot get efficiently out of the ground and to the customer without western help. They simply lack almost 100 years of middle class mentality. A society that killed its bourgeoisie must obviously rely on blackmail and extortion to survive.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6976 times:

Quoting SIBILLE (Thread starter):
I wonder why Tupolev Tu-334 and Antonov An-148 are not in airlines service yet. They flew for the first time a few years ago, they should have completed certification tests now and they have both a few orders.
Does someone know more?

Maybe they can't find enough airworthy fasteners, what with Boeing needing to corner the market.  Wink


User currently offlineOD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1925 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6939 times:

The Tu-334 didn't complete full certification and got no firm orders and it seems to have come to a dead end. I haven't checked the wiki pages but I know for sure that there are no orders of the type.

User currently offlineMIAMIx707 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6846 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
They are inefficient to operate

The An-148 is supposed to have a percentage of efficiency in the double digits over the similar Embraers. Respect to Antonov for not making the same boring looking twin as everybody else. This is also a plane that can take off from unpaved runways etc. Cubana is the only operator in the western hemisphere with some orders for it. I didn't even know about this.

It is true that many soviet craft that were copies of the west flopped (Buran) and some other military aircraft. Yes it's true most of the Russian transoports were developed during the Soviet Union with the communist mentality. Still, Russian/Soviet/Ukranian aviation has it's merits.

Shame the future of the Tu 334 isn't clear right now, that's such a good looking stubby little jet.

Quoting OD720 (Reply 6):
The Tu-334 didn't complete full certification and got no firm orders and it seems to have come to a dead end. I haven't checked the wiki pages but I know for sure that there are no orders of the type.

Looks like you're way off if this is true:


"According to Tupolev, a total of about 100 airlines have so far expressed an intereset in obtaining Tu-334s. However, the project's future is far from certain, with the directors of MiG and Rosaviakosmos both alleged to be in favour of cancelling development"

"As of December 2006 there are 55 firm orders for the Tupolev Tu-334 from 7 airlines, including Atlant-Soyuz Airlines and there are letters of intent from 24 airlines to obtain another 297 airplanes. [1] [2] Price per unit is estimated in the 19-25 million $ price range. [3]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-334


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6705 times:

Russian passengerjets aren´t so desired, their cargohaulers more. I think the An-148 got a better future....

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6677 times:

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):
"According to Tupolev, a total of about 100 airlines have so far expressed an intereset in obtaining Tu-334s.

One hundred airlines? What is a showing of "interest"? Asking for a brochure?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMIAMIx707 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6559 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
One hundred airlines? What is a showing of "interest"? Asking for a brochure?

I don't know, ask Tupolev?... lol

If that little jet goes into production it'll make my day. Although yes, it seems like way too many orders and "interest" for a plane that isn't really talked about much anymore.


User currently offlineSIBILLE From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 483 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6389 times:

Just on Flightinternational's web site now.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-production-reorganisation-in.html
Could answer my question!


User currently offlineStrudders From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6352 times:

The TU-334 looks like a cross between a 717 BAC 1-11 and a DC9.

Interesting.

Best Regards


Struds


User currently offlineNA747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 120 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6134 times:

I love the look/design of both aircrafts...and of the Sukhoi Superjet, too.
Would love to see them flying around the world, (not just Central Asia).
Will keep my fingers crossed & hope at least one of them enters service, but as we all know, easier said than done.


User currently offlineMIAMIx707 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5934 times:

Quoting SIBILLE (Reply 11):
Just on Flightinternational's web site now.

Thanks for the article! and for opening this thread.

Yessss!!! there's hope to see the Tu-334, AN-148, and new technology IL-76s!! Even at a snail's pace, at least the Russians will keep building aircraft that look cool. Enough boring western twins already! Big grin


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5922 times:

The TU334 wont sell at all now with the Superjet around. Its a gonner.

User currently offlineCirrusDriver From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5770 times:

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 14):
Enough boring western twins already!

Boring Western twins???? Enough boring copy cat aircraft from Russia!!!  Wow!  biggrin 


User currently offlineSIBILLE From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 483 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5742 times:

Quoting CirrusDriver (Reply 16):
Enough boring copy cat aircraft from Russia!!!

That's a fact Boeing copy Tu-204 by puting winglets on their 757!  Big grin


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13551 posts, RR: 100
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5665 times:
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Quoting RoyalAirMaroc (Reply 1):
Possibly a political issue........the way russia treats its customers may also be an issue.....for example very recently russia banned LH cargo from flying in it airspace.....what if LH cargo operated russian metal TU's or AN's? i think they would have tried to stop parts being delivered and restrict service. This may also be a disadvantage to the sukhoi superjet.

There is a reason they say "you have to buy the horse twice from a Russian." They have a habit of not keeping to contract.  Sad

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 3):
Those are the most interesting small twinjets I've ever seen.

Interesting? Maybe.

The Tu-334 is a shrink. If you've been on a.net a while, you know shrinks have poor efficiency. This is also circa 1990 technology. As its range ls less than an E190AR, its going to have a tough time establishing market share.

Its also not yet certified in Russia, much less the West. No certification=no sales. In terms of Western service, the Tu-334 is a non starter.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):

The An-148 is supposed to have a percentage of efficiency in the double digits over the similar Embraers.

The An-148 is interesting. Its claims for efficiency are... interesting. But against the upcoming MRJ?

And when are deliveries? Schedule was 2005! Yes, A380 like delays. Now, some western operators have expressed mild interest. If it can be delivered to the Russian airlines and proven in service, I think the AN-148 will sell worldwide. However, there is a window here. If the MRJ is launched with the GTF's, its market will be severely reduced.

And yes, the "Superjet" should gain share. But they have to deliver. Not just aircraft, but reliability and fuel burn (overall economics) will determine their market penetration.

Looks should have nothing to do with sales. Airlines are a business. It should be about what profit can be made on the airframe.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineMIAMIx707 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5617 times:

Quoting CirrusDriver (Reply 16):
Enough boring copy cat aircraft from Russia!!!

Hey hey! you have to recognize the Ruskys were pretty original.. at least on those two!  Wink

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):
If the MRJ is launched with the GTF's,

decode that for me

As for the -334, as long as Russia/CIS airlines fly it it'll help with variety some.

The Superjet also looks great, even if it has the usual "boring" configuration.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4722 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5575 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):
The Tu-334 is a shrink. If you've been on a.net a while, you know shrinks have poor efficiency.

But it has an impressive cargo capacity. Should be able to take LD3-46 containers, the same that are used on the A320 series and Tu-204 series.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):
Its also not yet certified in Russia

Are you sure?

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 19):
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):
If the MRJ is launched with the GTF's,

decode that for me

MRJ = Mitsubishi Regional Jet

GTF = Geared Turbofan



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13551 posts, RR: 100
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5567 times:
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Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 19):

decode that for me

MRJ=Mitsubishi Regional Jet It is projected to be the first carbon fiber single isle.
GTF=Geared Turbo Fan. Basically, the fan is spinning too fast and the turbine powering the fan is turning too slow. By putting a fixed gear ratio (usually about 3:1, turbine spinning at three times the RPM of the fan).

http://www.mrj-japan.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRJ

Unfortunately, both sites are weak on information. Current empty weight of the MRJ is projected to be a bit high for an E-jet competitor. But my sources are excited about it. But then again, as a group, we're biased towards GTF's.  Wink

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5511 times:

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):
The An-148 is supposed to have a percentage of efficiency in the double digits over the similar Embraers.

"Supposed to" is a very indefinite thing. And "double digit" efficiency advantage over its rivals would have airline executives falling over each other in the line to buy it - which isn't the case. But it does have its market.

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Quoting Alessandro (Reply 8):
I think the An-148 got a better future....

Seems like it. It will have the same market as the Let 410 and D-328Jet.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...6286/moscow-air-show-in-brief.html

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It is even now being tested for the sort of environments it would likely operate in.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...IX8AAAEAAGD0daAAAAAA&modele=jdc_34

The AN-148 is Mastering Unpaved Runways
(Source: Antonov ASTC; dated Nov. 1, 2007)

Quote:
"On October 31, 2007, one of the AN-148 regional passenger aircraft of the initial batch, flew to Odessa to carry out tests on widening its operation conditions."

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):

Its also not yet certified in Russia, much less the West.

I think it's already certified in Russia.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...an-148-after-russian-approval.html

Quote:
"Russia's civil aviation authority has granted type certification to the Antonov An-148, after a test programme covering more than 1,200h and 600 flights.

Antonov and Russia's Interstate Aviation Committee (MAK) now plan to validate the regional twinjet's certification under European Aviation Safety Agency standards.

An-148 testing began in August 2004 using two aircraft built by the Aviant plant in Kiev. Production is also being undertaken by the VASO plant in Voronezh."


[Edited 2007-11-09 13:17:57]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13551 posts, RR: 100
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5489 times:
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Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 22):

"Supposed to" is a very indefinite thing. And "double digit" efficiency advantage over its rivals would have airline executives falling over each other in the line to buy it - which isn't the case.

They'll have to prove that efficiency. They'll also have to stick to western contracts. If true... they'll sell well if the dispatch reliability is good. But then again, there have been cases where more efficient airframes have killed their sales by poor dispatch reliability at high utilization rates.

Do realize there is one quirk about flying in Russia: Internal customs. That so slows the turn times. Can the AN-148 perform a eight to a dozen 20 minute turns in a day?

Quoting A342 (Reply 20):

Are you sure?

Ummm...

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 22):

I think it's already certified in Russia.....

Oops  Wink

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineUzzzer From Ukraine, joined Dec 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5340 times:

The whole thing is very political.

Tu-334 is more dead than alive. Actually, Tatarstan gov't may face serious pressure from Kremlin to stop financing the project to clear the way for SSJ.

The Russian gov't strongly favors SSJ, not An-148, even pushing ACs to review their previous deals. An-148 still will be the first one to be delivered and to go serial. Next year there will be several of them carrying pax.

Ukrainian ACs show confidence in Antonov, but hold on with acquiring as they want to get special lease deals from the gov't in Kiev. They are likely to get it as An-148 is viewed by the Cabinet a savior for the industry after the failure with An-140 turbojet.

For both SSJ and Antonov servicing the aircraft will be the issue for sales. It is doubtful that the existing Boeing service network will support SSJ.

So, Tu-334 is a pricey collectioner's item. An-148 and SSJ will have their competition first in the post-Soviet, and then in China, UAE, North Africa, finally in EU and other places.

Nothing to worry for Emb and CRJ yet, but the competition threat is out there.


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