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Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates  
User currently offlineUSADreamliner From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5966 times:

The new international gates would be built after the airport tears down and rebuilds the two hourly parking decks just outside the terminal. The rental-car facilities, now located on the west side of the airport, would move to the new hourly decks, freeing space for the international terminal.

Construction of the international concourse would begin in 2010, Orr says, and the facility would be ready for use in 2011.
"We're experiencing significant growth -- period -- in Charlotte, in the hub, in the airline industry," says Jerry Orr, city aviation director.
Demand for those gates could come from US Airways Group Inc., which recently announced plans to fly to Colombia from here and appears to have lost a bid for more international gates at Philadelphia.

http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/cha...84&b=1194238800^1544601&ana=e_vert

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAdam T. From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 957 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5926 times:

Well its good that they are finally announcing the expansion. There are some plans somewhere on the internet that shows what the full expanded CLT will eventually look like, or I should say is proposed to look like. I'll try hunting it down later but right now I have to get ready for work.

Congrats to the airport though on going through with this!


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5797 times:

is this cuz PHL is getting too congested

User currently offline747fan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1190 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5742 times:

Maybe this will mean that US will finally start CLT-CDG.  stirthepot 
I wouldn't doubt that this expansion is at least partly due to the congestion problems at PHL, not to mention their issues with gates there. I'm wondering if CLT, despite the fact that its definitely fast-growing in terms of population and business, has healthy enough O&D to be able to support the added international flights that would come with the expansion? However, I don't doubt the fact that US has enough feed at Charlotte-Douglas to be able to support an international expansion.
If I'm not mistaken, CLT currently has 13 international gates over in Concourse D; the 25-gate addition is nearly twice as many intl. gates as they have now.


User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6371 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5722 times:

Quoting 747fan (Reply 3):
Maybe this will mean that US will finally start CLT-CDG

Probably...in 4 years.

Good job for CLT. Having connected both in PHL and CLT when I was unfortunate enough to fly US Airways internationally, I will take CLT any day...much better!


User currently offlineItsnotfinals From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5700 times:

Quoting 747fan (Reply 3):
Maybe this will mean that US will finally start CLT-CDG.

US already had CLT-CDG in 2000 but dropped it in the downturn.

It would be great if CLT could take some of the pressure of PHL.


User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3473 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5607 times:

sorry but i don't think this will be a build it and they will come situation. Yes US can use the gates for their caribbean/lat am/south american service but I really don't see much european service working out of CLT. CLT just doesn't have the international O&D to supplement the connecting paxs

If US thinks CLT will take some weight off of PHL they are wrong. No one north of CLT will even consider connecting through CLT when they have BOS, JFK, EWR, PHL, and IAD to choose from. Also ATL has pretty much already situated itself as the dominant international connecting point in the South east.


User currently offlineRyeFly From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5576 times:

The current international D concourse would most likely switch to domestic once the new international terminal opens since it will be nearly double the size of D and located at the opposite end of the airport from D. I can see CLT relieving some over crowding at terminal A by moving a few airlines over to D in the future and provide more gates to Jet Blue or an airline or airlines that currently do not serve CLT at present.

User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5564 times:

I was going to ask the same thing...is this because PHL is over congested? I think this is a good move because PHL will eventually become stretched too far. Maybe USAirways is going to make PHL a focus city *lol* and move flights to CLT  Big grin


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5550 times:

It's so nice that some airports have a coherent plan for growth. The new daily parking garages are great, and the airport seems to have a healthy approach to expansion. 25 gates might be a bit ambitious, though I suspect that this is more for southbound expansion than TATL. There's still plenty of space on D in the afternoons... during the Caribbean push, not so much.


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5281 times:

Quoting 747fan (Reply 3):
I'm wondering if CLT, despite the fact that its definitely fast-growing in terms of population and business, has healthy enough O&D to be able to support the added international flights that would come with the expansion?

No, it doesn't. If it were all about the quality of the facility, the PHL hub would be gone and PIT would still have 500 daily departures. All these pronouncements about PHL giving A-East gates to Delta and having to scale back international flying at PHL are just negotiating through the media and crocodile tears. The fact is that much of the additional transatlantic service from PHL has been seasonal, which by its nature means it is not primarily aimed at business travelers. Does business travel to ATH cease when the summer is over? How about VCE or SNN? We won't even go into the reports of how poor US's transatlantic product was this summer.


User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5078 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 10):
No, it doesn't. If it were all about the quality of the facility, the PHL hub would be gone and PIT would still have 500 daily departures. All these pronouncements about PHL giving A-East gates to Delta and having to scale back international flying at PHL are just negotiating through the media and crocodile tears. The fact is that much of the additional transatlantic service from PHL has been seasonal, which by its nature means it is not primarily aimed at business travelers.

I agree with you. My take on this who saga is that it is primarily driven by the ongoing intense DL-US competitive posture - particularly from Parker. The PHL airport authority moved the mobile lounges out of storage and offered them to US to supplement the summer gate situation. US refused to use them and instead chose to double up on the international gates - causing not infrequent long holding delays for incoming flights, particularly when an outbound was delayed. Further. the airport offered to expand A-west by 4 wide body international gates with planning/construction starting ASAP. I do however support the negativeness that moving DL and it's 25 or so daily departures to the secondary - albeit primary 757, international terminal is a waste of valuable real estate for primarily flights to Boston and Atlanta - although I understand that DL is planning to increase ATL frequencies to hourly for the business day. Further it seems even more a waste for DL to fly their RJs to BOS out of that terminal and clog up the international runways. Hopefully the BOS flights will be out of "F", but I doubt it. I see this move by DL as possibly a strategic attempt to make Sky Team inroads into PHL - with AF right next door now (after the move) and Alitalia rumored to come in soon. To support the cause, I wouldn't be surprised if DL started a few European services themselves out of PHL in the event JFK forces limited expansion.


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4588 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5058 times:

If I were Charlotte I'd be very careful about putting too much money into this. You are one good merger away from being PIT. What do you think would happen to CLT if DL were to merge with US? That was almost reality not too long ago. Be careful about mortgaging your future to support and airline that has a history of putting hubs on the chopping block.

My  twocents 



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5018 times:

Quoting Vega (Reply 11):
My take on this who saga is that it is primarily driven by the ongoing intense DL-US competitive posture - particularly from Parker.

Nope, it's not about Delta at all. It's about Southwest at PHL. The gates being vacated by Delta in Terminal E will be taken over by Southwest. This is being done, in part, so that WN's gates at the end of Terminal E can be closed in order to allow for the construction of the E Terminal hammerhead. While the immediate effect is small -- WN might pick up one gate, net, after some of its current gates close for construction -- after the E hammerhead is completed, WN will have access to upwards of a dozen gates at PHL. And Doug Parker really doesn't want to see Southwest operating 100+ daily departures from PHL.

Quoting Vega (Reply 11):
I do however support the negativeness that moving DL and it's 25 or so daily departures to the secondary - albeit primary 757, international terminal is a waste of valuable real estate for primarily flights to Boston and Atlanta - although I understand that DL is planning to increase ATL frequencies to hourly for the business day. Further it seems even more a waste for DL to fly their RJs to BOS out of that terminal and clog up the international runways.

By the same token, it's a "waste of valuable real estate" for US Airways to hold on to those gates largely for a single daily 757 for six months of the year. As I've said before, US has thirty gates in Terminal B/C which are used for just over 100 daily mainline departures and a number of regional departures. If US's primary concern were gate space in A-East, they could have either (1) given Star Alliance partner United 3 or 4 gates in Terminal B/C, allowing Delta to take United's gates in Terminal D or (2) given Delta 3 gates in Terminal B/C.


User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3473 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4967 times:

Quoting Vega (Reply 11):
I do however support the negativeness that moving DL and it's 25 or so daily departures

To further support your argument the majority of DL service is Delta Connection

JFK x3 RJ's
BOS x4 RJ's
CVG x6 RJ's
SLC x2 mainline
ATL x9 mainline x1 RJ

x11 mainline
x14 Delta Connection

Although i have to agree with Scottb. US has plenty of space in B/C that is not efficiently used. They could have offered 4 gates to AC/UA in B or C and free up room in D for DL.

Also i still don't understand the argument against busing to planes. I hear the mobile lounges in PHL aren't the best but that should not be the issue. A blog posted on the Philadelphia Inquirer website showed that most people would not mind busing to the aircraft and rather felt the over all US trans atlantic product should be more of a concern than a 5 minute bus ride.


User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4906 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 13):
Nope, it's not about Delta at all. It's about Southwest at PHL. The gates being vacated by Delta in Terminal E will be taken over by Southwest. This is being done, in part, so that WN's gates at the end of Terminal E can be closed in order to allow for the construction of the E Terminal hammerhead. While the immediate effect is small -- WN might pick up one gate, net, after some of its current gates close for construction -- after the E hammerhead is completed, WN will have access to upwards of a dozen gates at PHL. And Doug Parker really doesn't want to see Southwest operating 100+ daily departures from PHL.

You seem to have missed my point. Although I agree the reason for the DL move was to vacate the gates for WN, that is not the reason for my argument, which is, why US is/was fighting to keep DL out of A-East, when in fact there are other alternatives - and that DL will likely take every advantage of the situation. Further, Parker responded to ? during an Analyst conference that he had no opposition to WN expanding at PHL - just not at the expense of A-East. Now one could easily dismiss it as politicking - but he did clearly publicly make the statement.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 13):
By the same token, it's a "waste of valuable real estate" for US Airways to hold on to those gates largely for a single daily 757 for six months of the year.

You do realize that the A-East gates are leased on a "use or loose" basis and that US uses those gate for more than Europe - e.g., the Caribbean/Bermuda all year.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4906 times:

Is US in CLT trying to copy DL on the ATL-Latinamerica market?
Some destnations might work, some other will be near impossible to get the rights.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4903 times:

Quoting Vega (Reply 11):
To support the cause, I wouldn't be surprised if DL started a few European services themselves out of PHL in the event JFK forces limited expansion.

PHL international service is a waste of DL metal that will not be happening. Now if another Skyteam member wants to start something up that is an other deal. AZ coming to PHL hinges on AZ 's future and by extension which euro carrier will buy them.

DL has quite frankly moved on from the US deal. US's CEO seems to have gotten hung up on it. The vast majority of his line employees however have other worries on their mind.

PS here is the full CLT build out illustration.



User currently offlineRbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4891 times:

25 new international gates?  Wow! Does US consider flights to South Carolina "international"?

User currently offlineToltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3308 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4828 times:

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 6):
CLT just doesn't have the international O&D to supplement the connecting paxs

Neither did ATL in 1990. But ATL is a different city because the planners had the foresight to build Concourse E.

Quoting Rbgso (Reply 18):
25 new international gates?

I'm sure they will be able to be used as domestic gates when needed. But CLT can accept major amounts of traffic from the Caribbean, South America, and Canada via those gates. The european traffic will come as PHL melts down due to the local inability to respond to the problems the airport faces.

Quoting Indy (Reply 12):
f I were Charlotte I'd be very careful about putting too much money into this. You are one good merger away from being PIT.

On the contrary, I think PHL has more to worry about. If it were DL/US again, CLT can act as a relief valve for ATL. There's not much room left there. PHL has major focus city potential.


User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3473 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4828 times:

Quoting Vega (Reply 15):
Analyst conference that he had no opposition to WN expanding at PHL - just not at the expense of A-East.

Then why didn't he offer any other alternatives other than Delta staying in E or Delta in A-east.

Someone needs to move out of E for the sake of construction. I know its a waste for DL to be using gates that could be serving international flts, but no other alternative was proposed.

Did Parker think he was going to halt construction at E for as long as he wanted? It makes sense to move DL rather than WN because of WN's dual operation in D/E so where was DL going to go other than A-east?


User currently offlineACVitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4791 times:

Last time an airport authority built for US the airport and community got screwed... It has happened repeatedly...

PIT - Beautiful terminal built to spec now 1/3 used.
ICT - US ops now all commuter partner.
MCI - Need I say more.
TPA - The terminal is now used by many carriers (US had a dedicated section built to spec)


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4588 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4788 times:

Quoting Toltommy (Reply 19):
On the contrary, I think PHL has more to worry about. If it were DL/US again, CLT can act as a relief valve for ATL. There's not much room left there. PHL has major focus city potential.

This might be a first. I agree with you but I don't think you are right. Odd huh? I would suspect most people would prefer a connection in CLT over PHL any day of the week. They would likely pick CLT over ATL as well. I know if the only way I make a trip is going through PHL I won't go. ATL is about as bad. CLT would be a no brainer. That being said CLT is too close to ATL and is very heavy on the feed side. The CLT market is a fraction the size of ATL and PHL. Market size will win. O/D is where the real money is. I think airlines turn a blind eye to delays in order to serve O/D. That is a tough one too. What do you do? Cut delays or cut o/d? Pick your poison.

US has shown in my opinion a lack of regard for customer service. I am not referring to the good people that go in every day and bust their ass to do their job but the overall layout of the network. I think customer service issues are an absolute reflection of middle and upper management. It takes something special to rank with Ryanair for service.

PHL is a nightmare. What does US do? Cut PIT ops. Make sense? Maybe to bean counters but not to customers. Perhaps it would have been best to at least hold on to PIT until the CLT upgrades were done.

Basically I think CLT will be a victim of numbers and narrow minded management.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4756 times:

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 6):
If US thinks CLT will take some weight off of PHL they are wrong. No one north of CLT will even consider connecting through CLT when they have BOS, JFK, EWR, PHL, and IAD to choose from. Also ATL has pretty much already situated itself as the dominant international connecting point in the South east.

I would agree with that, why would some one want to go ALB-CLT-FRA, when they could easily connect through JFK or EWR. Especially when you consider that any star connections would be better suited through IAD or JFK.

Quoting Toltommy (Reply 19):
Quoting Indy (Reply 12):
f I were Charlotte I'd be very careful about putting too much money into this. You are one good merger away from being PIT.

On the contrary, I think PHL has more to worry about. If it were DL/US again, CLT can act as a relief valve for ATL. There's not much room left there. PHL has major focus city potential.

There is not enough O&D from the Southeast and Europe to go around. You would be talking about flights being completely dominated by connecting pax and that would simply not work for 2 airports as it does for ATL in regards to the better portion of their European flights. Bottom line, PHL, granted it is a terrible hub, CLT is no peach itself, has much more O&D and is in better position for connecting pax.


User currently offlineRyeFly From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4547 times:

The CLT airport director, Jerry Orr can be best described politely as a very conservative southerner. He prides himself in running the airport on a tight budget to keep it's costs low. He has often been criticized for moving too slow on improvements and projects regarding the airport in the past. He must know something we don't for him to approve a fourth runway, 25 gate expansion to terminal E, a new 25 gate international terminal, a third 4 thousand spot parking garage in just over a year, a complete redesign of the front lobby, new hourly and rental car garages.

25 Indy : Doesn't matter what you know today because a merger tomorrow changes everything.
26 Tornado82 : Agreed. Tom Forrester (the "father" of PIT) was once considered a hero too for his work to champion and build the "Airport of the Future" out there o
27 RyeFly : It's interesting to note that the diagram of the proposed expansion is actually what was unveiled as United's vision shortly after the first merger an
28 Steeler83 : I can't believe I forgot about Tom Forrester. God rest his soul indeed!
29 Jetdeltamsy : I don't see Charlotte becoming a major international connecting hub. Delta is much bigger in Atlanta and has a better frequent flyer loyalty base for
30 Gilesdavies : Interesting news article and great to see an airport planning expansion before it actually happens or is needed. So many airports refuse to expand unt
31 Cubsrule : The amazing thing is that they are needed. Parking in the new garages can be hard to come by, and the long-term lots (and remote) frequently reach ca
32 ScottB : No, I did understand your point, I just don't think it rings true. Do you honestly believe that Doug Parker is going to say, "We need to tie up as ma
33 B752OS : I assume you a referencing Latin America then. I think that is going to be a tough nut for US to crack. Latin America, namely South America, is still
34 Iowaman : Too bad WN can't pick up a few gates in CLT with the new expansion... Fares are ridiculously high and it would be another dot in the system....
35 2travel2know : The best CLT could achieve as a gateway to Latinamerica/Caribbean is to have as many Latinamerican destinations served as DFW (without counting Mexic
36 Post contains links Vega : Quoting ScottB (Reply 32): Quoting Vega (Reply 15): You seem to have missed my point. Although I agree the reason for the DL move was to vacate the ga
37 Adam T. : I had forgotten about the airport plans for United.....you are right, these plans do look fairly similar. Personally....I thought the expansion of Co
38 LAXdude1023 : It doesnt have much to do with DL or ATL. Most people are going to be connecting through ATL or CLT. If US charges less why would someone who is goin
39 Tom in NO : As mentioned elsewhere, airports that build on this philosophy more times than not regret having done so. Let's go outside USAirways and look at AA.
40 Cubsrule : CLT and DFW are totally different animals as far as Latin America is concerned. DFW is only really an effective connecting hub for Mexico, northern C
41 LAXdude1023 : One missing factor: O&D. DFW doesnt have a huge O&D to South America, but I would be willing to bet that it has more than CLT. That is one reason som
42 ScottB : Again, more posturing by US Airways. Honestly, it strikes me as (figuratively) cutting their nose off to spite their face. Philly ought to call their
43 Cubsrule : Oh, almost certainly. But if you put aside the fact that AA is far stronger in South America than US, any South America route that works from DFW sho
44 LAXdude1023 : CLT has a better locale for traffic flow to South America. No arguement there.
45 Cubsrule : I think we're basically saying the same thing...
46 Post contains images LAXdude1023 : HAHA, fair enough dude!
47 2travel2know : RE: DFW Latinamerican gateway vs CLT potential Latinamerican gateway. DFW has AA in MIA, meaning that in most DFW - Latinamerican routes (except Mexic
48 Cubsrule : Why not? CLT is one of the cheapest large hubs in which to operate, and as I pointed out above, most of the recent changes at the airport (and many o
49 Jetdeltamsy : I agree with you there. People are going to flock to the lowest priced provider. But hasn't Delta been just that as of late? Generally speaking they
50 Post contains links Vega : Well I don't necessarily disagree with you about EWR, other than if the FAA forces reductions at JFK, they will likely do the same at EWR. Regardless
51 PSU.DTW.SCE : The whole PHL gate-switch is stupid. The best solution, but I have no idea why it didn't work would've been to move CO to E, along with NW & DL - givi
52 LGA777 : Tell that to the folks way up in LGA who every day connect in CLT on their way to LGW, FRA and beyond. I don't have exact numbers but if I did they w
53 Usairways85 : one of the reasons it is happening is because construction at E will force WN to vacate 3 of its gates. If you were to consolidate WN in D then there
54 Tornado82 : Seems kinda odd when they could just hop under the river and have directs to LGW, FRA, and beyond from EWR... or go out the island a little further t
55 ScottB : The problem is that DL would have to rely almost entirely on O&D if they were to fly transatlantic from PHL. And the handful of markets which can sup
56 Post contains images BrettFromCLT : Jump in the wayback machine. Here's CLT from around 1982 or 1983... Amazing how much they've expanded.
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