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Airport With Tugless Pushback System?  
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2378 posts, RR: 5
Posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12750 times:

I think it is in Europe somewhere, but does anyone have any idea what airport has the pushback system which uses no tugs?


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
86 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2849 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 12710 times:

Wow...I haven't heard of this. What type of system is this? Are the a/c just using r/t to back out of a gate or is there actually some type of computerized/mechanical system? This is definitely getting me interested!!!  bouncy 


"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11574 posts, RR: 61
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 12676 times:

I have heard of the possibility of integrating an electronic motor within the nose gear to push back the plane, but not heard of an airport having a system - I presume it wold need to be like some form of Scalextric track set into the ground.


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3365 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 12635 times:

Perhaps a giant conveyor belt that moves the whole plane backwards? Big grin

User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2378 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12451 times:

It's a permanent systems that, IIRC, uses a cradle mechanism similar to the towbarless tugs that are out there. All there is, is the cradle and it is on a rail of some sort as if it were the jayline. An operator activates the cradle and the aircraft is pushed straight back. When I first saw this technology, it was paired along with other technology that retract into the ramp when not in use.

http://www.cavotec.com/corporate/fla.../airports/78/underfloor-solutions/



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11574 posts, RR: 61
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12420 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 3):
http://www.cavotec.com/corporate/fla.../airports/78/underfloor-solutions/

That link leads to this;

"To keep the tarmac apron completely free for service traffic and to reduce turn-around time for aircraft, Cavotec Fladung has designed a fully integrated ground support system. This system is installed into the tarmac itself and is accessed through pop-up or hatch-type pits that are located close to the aircraft.

Once servicing is completed these pits can be retracted to close flush with the tarmac. Leaving it free for the aircraft to manoeuvre and other essential airport traffic to approach."

That just refers to the services, such as power and air conditioning etc... whilst the aircraft is shut down at the gate. It look like FRA to me, but I don't see anything on the site about tug-less pushback. Do you have any more links, as I'm interested to hear of this method?


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2378 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12359 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):

Yea, sorry for the confusion. Like I said, when i first saw this story of the pushback system, they were also talking about the in ground ground support systems. I don't believe it was the same company. I saw this story a few years back.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineN710PS From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12349 times:

Every major airport in the world has one. You pull the jetbridge back, start both at the gate than make a sharp 90-180 degree turn and call ground for taxi. How is that for taking the tug out of the equation?  Wink We do it alot at airports in the south. It is easier than a pushback.


There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2158 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12349 times:

Air France use that system in Nice. Normally the pushback is attached to one of the central landing gears and remote controlled. Quite neat yet strange to see. Haven't seen it in any other airport yet.

User currently offlineStylo777 From Turkey, joined Feb 2006, 2904 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12329 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):

That just refers to the services, such as power and air conditioning etc... whilst the aircraft is shut down at the gate. It look like FRA to me, but I don't see anything on the site about tug-less pushback. Do you have any more links, as I'm interested to hear of this method?

no, I suppose it is MUC, because here in FRA we don't have this system installed and I never saw an Emirates hangar. In FRA we only have a bunch of towbarless tugs which also could handle the A380.


User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2378 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12300 times:

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 8):

Yes, very similar to that, the one I saw was attached to the nose gear though.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineJerald01 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 161 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12294 times:

Talk to the U.S. Navy. They have a fair amount of exeperience with something like this. Of course you may want to check to insure your local airport has enough room BEHIND the aircraft to stop once the catapult does it's job....

 Wink



"There may be old pilots, and there may be bold pilots, but there are darn few green cows"
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11574 posts, RR: 61
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12286 times:

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 9):
no, I suppose it is MUC, because here in FRA we don't have this system installed and I never saw an Emirates hangar. In FRA we only have a bunch of towbarless tugs which also could handle the A380.

Cheers for the correction - I saw an LH widebody which looked like a 744, so I was presuming it was FRA  Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineSandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3417 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12265 times:

Doesn't CDG have some sort of tugless pushback system? At least at some of the Terminal 2 piers. Although, to be fair, they have some sort of mini-tug connected to one of the main landing gears, but there's no driver and either the pilot steers himself, or the system has a pre-programmed pushback route, depending on the A/C type connected.

Is that what the OP was thinking of?

[Edited 2007-11-06 10:50:41]

User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2378 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12218 times:

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 13):
Is that what the OP was thinking of?

For the lack of a better description, yes, it was a "mini tug" of some sort and this may very well be what I saw. Again, the system I saw was hooked up to the nose gerar and I think it was an MD-80 series.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4973 posts, RR: 18
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 12149 times:

A track in the ground would mean that the whole gate goes out of service when the "tug" goes down. Which it will. Not a good setup.

User currently offlineSandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3417 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 12132 times:

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 15):
A track in the ground would mean that the whole gate goes out of service when the "tug" goes down. Which it will. Not a good setup.

Not necessarily. Depending on the construction of the system, a normal pushback tug could still be used when/if the system craps down.


User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11945 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 4):
An operator activates the cradle and the aircraft is pushed straight back.



Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 10):
Yes, very similar to that, the one I saw was attached to the nose gear though.

In order for this to work, the aircraft would have to be exactly centered on the line, meaning the whole body. Otherwise, if the mains were just a few inches off, the aircraft would start turning right away. Also, for these "track" systems to work, wouldn't there be large gaps in the ramp where the track runs?


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3760 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11943 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 14):
I think it was an MD-80 series.

On a side note: I heard somewhere that the DC-9 and MD-80 series, as well as the 717, are able to "pull" (not push) themselves back from the gate using reverse thrust.

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2378 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11896 times:

Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 17):
In order for this to work, the aircraft would have to be exactly centered on the line, meaning the whole body. Otherwise, if the mains were just a few inches off, the aircraft would start turning right away. Also, for these "track" systems to work, wouldn't there be large gaps in the ramp where the track runs?

The one that I remember had a small gap of only a couple inches max running along the jay line. I believe all of the components outside of the cradle were underground.

Quoting Doona (Reply 18):
On a side note: I heard somewhere that the DC-9 and MD-80 series, as well as the 717, are able to "pull" (not push) themselves back from the gate using reverse thrust.

Cheers
Mats

They can, but not recommended for FOD issues.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineIAHFLYER From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11829 times:

@ LBB, WN used to just make a U-turn.


Little airports with the big jets are the best!! Floyd
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21421 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 11780 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 19):
They can, but not recommended for FOD issues.

AA used to do it on MD80s at DFW. It was always interesting to be on one that did that. The airport has to be designed to handle the thrust on the glass and the ground equipment has to be out of the way. The MD80s are long enough and the engines far back enough it makes it less of an issue.

But in these high fuel cost times, don't expect it to be used any time soon no matter how well the airport could deal with it.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineRichM From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 796 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 11297 times:

Yes, Flybe at LBA don't appear to use tugs for their Embraers. :P



User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 11231 times:

Quoting RichM (Reply 22):
Yes, Flybe at LBA don't appear to use tugs for their Embraers. :P

That's the most awesome ground video I've ever seen!!  rotfl 


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21421 posts, RR: 60
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11156 times:

Quoting IAHFLYER (Reply 20):
@ LBB, WN used to just make a U-turn.

At gates B11 and B14 at SRQ, they just pull the jetway away and you turn a bit and drive off. At gate B12 it depends on the aircraft.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 Post contains images Swissy : Yep, also the 727 can do it, nothing beats a "power back".................. , all they need is some outside mirrors..... Cheers,
26 PIA777 : I have only seen it on Airtran 717s at ATL. I was on their flight twice when that happened. PIA777
27 Post contains images AirframeAS : Ah, yes! NW has done that (Do they still?) on their D9's at DTW and MSP. I have been on one D9 (MSP-DLH) in 1999 that did a powerback and it was awes
28 Wjv04 : Whats wrong with the current pushback system? If it isnt broke dont fix it...
29 JamesJimlb : yes, powerbacks is what i hear them called, the dc's md, or 717 are capable of powering back in permitable conditions, using reverse thrust.
30 JetBlueGuy2006 : Yeah, Allegiant does this in Lansing. Gate 9 is on the corner, so they don't pull in as far as say a NW DC-9 and the jetway pulls back and a slight t
31 Post contains images SNAFlyboy : Now that's what I call a pushback! Thanks for sharing that... ~SNAFlyboy
32 HPAEAA : G19 at ORD.. the EMBs can taxi under power out to the taxi ways.. without a push back.. however, I have found this dangerous, I had atleast two pilots
33 Ncelhr : You are indeed both talking about the same system. Also in use by AF at ORY. Can handle A318, A319, A320 & A321. It requires less personnel & is fast
34 Georgebush : NZ also uses this system in WLG. I don't know for sure about any other airports, but the pushback is done by one guy with a tuggish looking thing att
35 JAGflyer : I don't know what it's called but I like the system ANA uses for their 747s. Not only does it push them back, it gets them to dance around as well. Pr
36 Pnwtraveler : I remember standing on the top floor of the parking garage on top of Terminal One at YYZ and watching an AC DC9 doing the reverse thrust back up. I al
37 Georgebush : That is awesome! When I worked for G4, I pursuaded the captain to do a full reverse thrust pushback when I was on board. It was brilliant. Captain co
38 Post contains images EI747SYDNEY : Surely this is a one off. Rob
39 VHECA : I have seen these "tugs" used at YMML. DJ uses them. They look like low forklifts and attch themselves to one of the main landing gear. The operator,
40 Post contains images Speedbird2263 : Really good vid... Hmm....Don't think Id mind trying that
41 Post contains images Platinumfoota : The system is just fine why change it? That and i would be out of a job!! Too Funny!! Ever depart out of LAX on gates 70A or 71A?? Now thats a push ba
42 WildcatYXU : I've done something similar. With a MIG 21.
43 FlyDeltaJets87 : Or if the pilot misses the centerline when pulling in. Could be kinda' interesting, especially if the airport is completely dependent on the new syst
44 Post contains links Super80DFW : This might be a rare case, but I don't know. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiRkA0xr96Y NWA DC-9 Powerback at MSP.
45 Post contains images JetMech : I think that there was such a system at Stockholm Arlanda . Apparently, all the devices required to serve an aircraft were mounted in boxes that coul
46 GeorgeJetson : I flew on Air France last year from Paris to Nice and back and saw this system at both airports. I thought it was very unusual!
47 GeorgeJetson : I have flown from Atlanta on Airtran 717s several times and they did powerbacks every time. One time, the aircraft moved forward for a split second a
48 Post contains links GeorgeJetson : I just absolutely love this You Tube video with the 747s dancing to Sylvie Vartan (my favorite singer, superstar and superhero) singing Irresistiblem
49 Ckfred : AA used to do powerbacks at ATL with MD-80s, F100s, and 727s. According to a friend of mine who is a pilot with AA and used to fly 727s, both as an F
50 Max Q : On the 727 and MD 80 we always used to roll forward a little prior to starting the powerback. Helped to overcome rolling resistance, much easier and u
51 Pilotboi : That's another reason why I can't see this system being out there or practical.
52 QFA380 : If a number of tugs are broken, during heavy delays or peak hours, one could find oneself waiting some time for a tug. Also you have the number of pe
53 Jimbobjoe : Some of the responses here imply that only some aircraft can do a powerback. Why can't all?
54 Goldorak : used at MPL also
55 Flymad : Have seen it in use at JNB with one of the LCC's - Can't remember which one though.
56 Flymad : Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but did Air Floirda 90 (B737) not "reverse" away from the gate as well? I think it was one of the contributing
57 Platinumfoota : UA only uses 2 people for pushbacks, a driver and one wingwalker. With lots of traffic on the ramp i think it would be safer to have a person who is
58 GeorgeJetson : What's really unusual is that they use these "contraptions" on one side only.
59 RebelDJ : Nose landing gears can be damaged by tugs - either with or without towbars. Towbars are meant to have a mechanical fuse that will break before the ge
60 Pilotboi : Wow, where to start... Great idea! Now that's starting to sound more practical. But I'm sure it's a lot more complicated then we make it sound. I beli
61 Post contains images Speedbird2263 : Well to be quite frank I do it all the time with a C172.... But anything over 3000lbs I havnt tried....yet.... .
62 Planesavvy : As a pushback driver myself, I think we can just keep the system we have! Don't want to lose my cushy job! At London City Airport along their long nar
63 Post contains links and images EGCC777LR : Here's a couple more examples of the DC9 / MD 82 powerback http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0975772/L/ http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra..._Airli
64 Post contains links and images PaxBCN : Weel, here in BCN we have both, tug push-backs and those you can see in the picture
65 Greg76 : Just about everyone makes a U-Turn at LBB.... no need really to have a tug with as much space as they have
66 Post contains links BHXFAOTIPYYC : Nor Iberia (Air Nostrum) apparently !
67 NwAflyer07 : Thats incredible haha. I'd love to see them try on a 757 or A320. lol
68 Post contains images Mcr : It's not exactly a "Pushback" but I like the system used at London City - planes arriving at the stands do a full turn before coming to a stop, so the
69 Post contains images Aircellist : ?!?! could hardly believe my eyes!!! Now, I know that this airport IS NOT A380 ready
70 Post contains images Jbguller : It is - they just get more crew to help out!
71 Post contains images Pilotboi : That thing looks like a drag racer!
72 Ncelhr : The system used by AF involves only 1 operator. No wing-walker. The mini-tug is electric-powered and clamps to one of the main gears. Indeed, Richard
73 FlyDeltaJets87 : Sounds complicated to save 15 to 30 seconds at most, and even then, more care and precision (and thus, time) would be required to perfectly align wit
74 TristarSteve : You are correct. At Stockholm ARN T2 there are a lot of underground systems. The Terminal was built with the intention that no vehicles would be used
75 DocLightning : I have been on an MD-80 and a DC-9 that have done a "power-back." The downside is that any loose debris lying around can get blown all over the place
76 PC12Fan : Thanks for that post. Any idea of the company that installed these or where some pics/illustrations can be found?
77 TristarSteve : I will try and find out, but I am off work yntil Sat. Will try then
78 Post contains links PC12Fan : That would be appreciated. I found something about Arlanda that I did not realize - it's an alternate landing site for the Space Shuttle! http://en.w
79 Cubsrule : NW did it quite extensively at all three hubs until a couple of years ago. IIRC, they could do it at just about any gate at DTW (though -9s park excl
80 Post contains links TristarSteve : And here it is http://www.fmt.se/index.php?id=36 This is T2 at ARN as it was built about 15 years ago. You can see the fuel dispenser and the push bac
81 EXTspotter : In Valladolid (VLL), the planes turn to face outwards and do not use pushback tugs. The biggest thing you will get there though are FR 738s along with
82 Super80DFW : Yes. Look at Reply 44.
83 Tdscanuck : All aircraft with reversers can do a powerback. Most are not certified to do it, hence don't. In all cases, you have the possibility of kicking up FO
84 AirframeAS : Uhmm, I wrote that BEFORE reply, 44, Super80DFW. Thanks though, I do really appreciate it. I CAN actually read. On that note, thanks for posting the
85 PC12Fan : Yep, that's the one! Thanks Tristar!
86 Post contains images Mcamargo : APN in the US doesn't use a tug... ...then again, they don't have a jetway either and only get NW Saabs
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