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Future Of Loganair  
User currently offlineBaexecutive From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 725 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2946 times:

With the end of the BA franchise in October next year, what do you suppose the future for this Scottish airline is?

Possible expansion into England/Ireland? Possible expansion into Europe even?

Ideas on a postcard please

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2936 times:

Quoting Baexecutive (Thread starter):
With the end of the BA franchise in October next year, what do you suppose the future for this Scottish airline is?

They already removed the Highlands and Islands flying from the franchise - hard to see a major future for them outside the BA brand umbrella. They are tucked away in a fairly bleak and forbidding locale with only the prospect of oil-related travel to keep them warm. LGW slots, anyone ? Or AMS (probably more hope and better oil-related feed, what with the split between LGW and LHR). Possibly a northern Flybe - hybrid LCC + full service feeder ? They'll need to partner up and sign codeshares with anything that moves. Have they made a Res/Inventory hosting decision yet, does anyone know ?


User currently offlineBaexecutive From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 725 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2919 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
They are tucked away in a fairly bleak and forbidding locale with only the prospect of oil-related travel to keep them warm

I thought most travel was made by locals and tourists to the many beautiful islands etc etc? I would imagine the only oil routes to be out of Aberdeen.

Did they not used to have a larger network operating out of Manchester and have bae 146s back in the 80s/90s?

p.s. what do you mean by 'bleak and forbidding' have you been to Scotland before?


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7363 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2873 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
They already removed the Highlands and Islands flying from the franchise - hard to see a major future for them outside the BA brand umbrella.

If this was correct then it would not have been much of a franchise deal. The part of the Loganair network that was removed from the BA Franchise operation was the Orkney Islands services, not the Highlands and Islands services.

The Orkney Islands services are operated by four small BN Islander aircraft operated with Loganair titles. These aircraft also operate the Scottish Aor Ambulance Service under contract. The Loganair Highland and Island services are operated by two DHC6, two Saab 340As and eleven Saab 340Bs. All of these 15 aircraft currently fly within the BA franchise operation.

As to ther future, here is an extract from the Loganair Press Release following the BA announcement:

". . . Loganair will immediately be entering into a code share agreement with British Airways that will continue to allow passengers travelling from the Highlands and Islands to travel on BA flight numbers when connecting through Aberdeen, Glasgow and Edinburgh on to British Airways flights. Loganair's scheduled service network will continue to operate as normal with no services affected. The Air Discount Scheme [that gives Highland and Island residents a 40 per cent rebate on their fares within the Highlands and Islands and to ABX, EDI and GLA] remains unchanged and is not affected by this announcement.

"Scott Grier, Chairman of Loganair said, 'Loganair has enjoyed an excellent relationship with British Airways since 1994 and both companies are pleased that the close relationship will continue through the code share arrangement. As well as having the BA Code Share Agreement in place we will be considering other options for the future which will ensure that the interests of our passengers and our staff are safeguarded.'"

From 1994 Loganair until relatively recently Loganair has had a virtual monopoly of Scottish Highlands and Islands services. But with the entry of Highland Airways into this market with four BAe Jetstream 31 and two Cessna F 406s and the peripheral entry of Eastern Airways who now serve Aberdeen,Stornoway and Wick, Loganair is now facing greater competition on its "home" ground. It is therefore unlikely to run away from the BA code share agreement that must feed a large number of passengers into its Highland and Island services.


User currently onlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2743 times:

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 2):
Did they not used to have a larger network operating out of Manchester and have bae 146s back in the 80s/90s?

Yes. AFAIK that ended up as part of Manx Airlines (there was common ownership at this time) before being split from the IOM operations as British Regional Airlines. This was of course later bought by BA, merged with Brymon into BA Citi Express before becoming BACON and now Flybe. Would be interesting to see how former Loganair routes remain in BE's network today

Hopefully Loganair will pursue supplementary codeshare deals with other airlines, such as KL, LH and CO. Maybe look at more services outside of Scotland with their Saab's - Ireland maybe? EDI-NOC or GLA-NOC for example could possibly work 3 or 4 times a week



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User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24899 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2667 times:

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 2):
p.s. what do you mean by 'bleak and forbidding' have you been to Scotland before?

If you read the non aviation forums, you'll find that JGPH1A as well as many others are very anti-Scottish. Especially the Europeans who claim Scotland isn't a country.



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2587 times:

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 2):
p.s. what do you mean by 'bleak and forbidding' have you been to Scotland before?

Actually no I haven't blessed Scotland with my radiance as yet. They are deeply undeserving. I only meant that Loganair's main market currently is remote and not what one might call a tourism or business mecca.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 5):
If you read the non aviation forums, you'll find that JGPH1A as well as many others are very anti-Scottish. Especially the Europeans who claim Scotland isn't a country.

I'm not anti-Scottish, I'm anti-Kirk  Smile - and it ISN'T a country.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7363 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 6):
They are deeply undeserving. I only meant that Loganair's main market currently is remote and not what one might call a tourism or business mecca.

What would you call a tourism or business mecca?

Edinburgh is certainly a leading international financial business centre. That is why BA operate eight flights a day on the LCY-EDI route. To put this number into perspective on the LCY-FRA route, a route that arguably links two of the world's leading financial centres, LH operates 5 daily flights and BA three, a directly equivalent eight flights a day. So in "business MECCA" terms there is some equivalency between Frankfurt, London and Edinburgh.

The number of tourists to Scotland in 2006 - 6.35 million spending £1,780,000,000 - exceeds the Sottish resident population of 5.117 million by 24.1 per cent. This is an unusually high figure. Few countries annually receive more tourists than their population. For example, in 2003 South Africa received a total of 6.64 million foreign visitors of which 91 per cent (equivalent to 6.042 M) are reported to have been tourists. For a much larger country this is not only a lower total figure. It is 86.4 per cent below the resident population ofSouth Africa of 43.9 million.


User currently offlineSevenair From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 1728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2477 times:

I too am keen to see what will become of Loganair. Their brand has been somewhat watered down in the Islands since the planes and flights are all BA branded (apart from a small Loganair logo on the nose of the S340). Whilst commonly referred to as Loganair, I am not sure what will happen once the BA franchise go. They have always provided a good service every time I fly on them (3-4 times a year).

To be honest, the only difference I think we will see is that flight numbers will change to LC88XX or LCXXX with a BA codeshare. I don't think much will change. But I do miss the Loganair cs. And I would be keen to see a S340 in the Loganair cs. Especially now that they have GLA-SYY and other routes out of GLA.

I wonder if they will go 'low cost'. HWY seem to be doing well with their cheap seats - in that I have never been able to get them - with a good couple of months notice. And load factors seem ok. The BA flights are often very expensive.

Time will tell, but I really do not see much happening. Tickets I suspect will still be sold via BA.com mainly afaik.

Possibly a bit of a brand push to revive the fact that Loganair never actually went away,


User currently offlineTonforty From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2429 times:

It's hard to say how it will impact on the service. It will be nice to see the Loganair brand back more prominently though. I wonder what colours they'll use on their aircraft. Hopefully they'll do something with these white Saab 340s. And the interiors of some of these Saabs really could do with some work. Nearly every time I'm on them there seems to be broken seats and they just feel worn out.

User currently offlineBDKLEZ From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 1735 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2353 times:

As an Irishman living in the Netherlands with no direct affinity to Scotland, I can only say that regardless of a BA franchise, Loganair have always operated their own inter-island services anyway. Let's not get into what's British, Scottish, English or whatever.

The point is that, if the existing inter-island services are to survive after the BA franchise ends, then I don't think that requiring outside investment to sustain those is out of the question, or indeed outside the realms of possibility.

The Airlines of Britain Group of many years ago sustained those liks, to a certain extent, at the time. Would it not be recommended for the customers as well as bmi to re-invest in those links. I'm sure they've thought about it.



Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7363 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2323 times:

I suspect that to some extent the future of Loganair is tied up with the future of the Scottish Executive's Air Discount Scheme - see also Reply 7. The scheme started in May 2006 and has EU approval to continue until March next year. A report is scheduled to be published before the end of this year that will make recommendations on the future of the scheme.

If the scheme is discontinued there is clearly likely to be a fall in traffic within the Highlands and Islands. This traffic showed an 18.2 per cent passenger growth following the introduction of the 40 per cent discount to Highlands and Islands residents. Such a fall would hit both Loganair and Highland Airways hard.

The Air Discount Scheme web site says:

"Membership across the eligible areas is currently running at around 87% with over 130,000 discounted tickets purchased in the scheme's first year."

What 87 per cent membership means is a little unclear to me but it suggests that 87 per cent of qualifying residents are registered as potential users of the scheme. If this interpretation is correct then the scheme must be very important to Loganair. This is reflected by the advertisement for the scheme that they have painted on the rear fuselage of many of their aircraft:

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User currently offlineSevenair From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 1728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2274 times:

Quoting Tonforty (Reply 9):
Nearly every time I'm on them there seems to be broken seats and they just feel worn out.

I hear you! The seat infront collapsed and hit my sister in law. And the guy in the seat that fell back got such a fright.


User currently offlineBDKLEZ From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 1735 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2271 times:

Quoting Tonforty (Reply 9):
Nearly every time I'm on them there seems to be broken seats and they just feel worn out.

Broken or "unserviceable" seats are pretty much an every day occurrance with the majority of carriers.

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 12):
The seat infront collapsed and hit my sister in law. And the guy in the seat that fell back got such a fright.

A freak occurrance I would suggest. Accidents happen sometimes.



Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
User currently offlineSevenair From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 1728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

Quoting BDKLEZ (Reply 13):

A freak occurrance I would suggest. Accidents happen sometimes.

That may be true. But I have seen it a couple of times where they have unserviceable seats covered in what looks like a black binliner. In fact, my brother travelled on the same plane a couple of weeks later and the same seat was still out of service. Ans their complaint regarding the issue was passed to Loganair but nothing was heard regarding the issue.

An ex LC cabin crew (good friends with my sister in law) member said it has happened a good few times on her flights on the S340 when she heard about this happening to her friend. This was not a one off as far as she was concerned.

Whilst this is rare, I would not call it a freak accident.


User currently offlineBDKLEZ From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 1735 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2216 times:

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 14):
But I have seen it a couple of times where they have unserviceable seats covered in what looks like a black binliner

That could very well be the case, yes. If the seat was wet or soiled and no spare was readily available, and it also makes it clearly identifiable to the crew that indeed that seat for whatever reason may not be used.

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 14):
In fact, my brother travelled on the same plane a couple of weeks later and the same seat was still out of service.

An unserviceable seat is way down the scale of categories when it comes to aircraft defects. It may in fact be possible to operate with the seat in that condition for well over 90 days as it would be classed as a Dispatchable Defect.

I agree that it from an aesthetic point of view, it probably doesn´t 'look´ very good, but unless we get into the realms of passengers being displaced or denied boarding simply because of an unserviceable seat, then I personally do not see what the problem was.

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 14):
Ans their complaint regarding the issue was passed to Loganair but nothing was heard regarding the issue.

I´m intrigued to know what your brother was actually 'complaining' about. He was obviously on the aircraft to witness the seat himself and as such was not denied boarding, so I´m not sure what the point of the complaint was. Regarding nothing being done about it, see above where I mention the permissable validity period of pending repair of such defects.

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 14):
An ex LC cabin crew (good friends with my sister in law) member said it has happened a good few times on her flights on the S340 when she heard about this happening to her friend. This was not a one off as far as she was concerned.

Whilst I do not doubt the integrity here, this is third party hearsay. I can´t tell you how many times I´ve been drunk, but I do know that I´ve been drunk a good few times.

Don´t get me wrong, I´m not attempting to discredit here, just wondering what the relevance is. After all, as a BA franchise operator, LC will have many conditions of various Service Level Agreements to adhere to as dicated by BA. If these agreements were regularly being flouted, then LC would´ve lost that franchise a very long time ago.



Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
User currently offlineAntonovman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 720 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2152 times:

Quoting Humberside (Reply 4):
Yes. AFAIK that ended up as part of Manx Airlines (there was common ownership at this time) before being split from the IOM operations as British Regional Airlines. This was of course later bought by BA, merged with Brymon into BA Citi Express before becoming BACON and now Flybe

They were part of the British Midland group at one time weren;t they ? along with Manx and Businessair i think


User currently offlineBDKLEZ From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 1735 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2141 times:

Quoting Antonovman (Reply 16):
They were part of the British Midland group at one time weren;t they ? along with Manx and Businessair i think

The group that you're referring to was known as the Airlines of Britain Group. It comprised BD/JE/LC along with MAS (Midland Airport Services) handling agent. JE then began operating as a fully owned subsidiary of BA after it's sale. LC went stand-alone and entered into the very franchise agreement which we are now discussing. Business Air (II) as it was, was as the names suggests a business orientated carrier with it's main base at ABZ. It was bought by BD in about 1996 and eventually became part of what is now bmi Regional. MAS along with the Go-Ahead group and Gatwick Handling, went on to become Aviance.

IIRC

 thumbsup 



Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7363 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2131 times:

Loganair was founded in 1962 by Logan Construction.

In 1968 the airline was bought by the Royal Bank of Scotland.

In 1983 the Airlines of Great Britain group - effectively British Midland - took a controlling interest.

In 1994 Airlines of Great Britain effectively integrated Loganair's operations with those of another subsidiuary, Manx Airlines (Europe). It also became a BA franchise operator.

In 1997 Loganair was subject to a management buy out led by Scott Grier.


User currently offlineBDKLEZ From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 1735 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2129 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 18):

Much more eloquently put than me. Good man.



Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2071 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 7):
That is why BA operate eight flights a day on the LCY-EDI route. To put this number into perspective on the LCY-FRA route, a route that arguably links two of the world's leading financial centres, LH operates 5 daily flights and BA three, a directly equivalent eight flights a day. So in "business MECCA" terms there is some equivalency between Frankfurt, London and Edinburgh.


BA operate 8 dailies to LCY because they are serving the city of London. London is the business mecca, not EDI, I'm pretty sure. And anyway LC don't operate EDI-LON, they operate EDI-WIC and other such business meccas - hence my theory that LC is not actually serving high-volume business or leisure markets currently.

[Edited 2007-11-09 10:27:48]

User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7363 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2018 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 20):
BA operate 8 dailies to LCY because they are serving the city of London.

Oh! Thanks for explaining that to me. I thought it was because Edinburgh is the HQ of a large number of international financial corporations. For example two of the UK's four largest banks are headquartered and based there.

The second largest UK bank is the Royal Bank of Scotland. It has assets of £ 583,467,000,000. Its HQ is in Edinburgh. Its central operations are in Edinburgh

And then there is HBOS. It is the UK's fourth largest bank. It is also headquartered and operates out of Edinburgh. It has assets of £442,881,000,000.

To put these figures in context the GDP of South Africa is estimated to be US $ 587,500,000,000 this year. At today's exchange rate of $2.0911 to £1.00 that is £280,592,000,000 or just over 27 per cent of the combined assets of these two Edinburgh based financial institutions.

To me without the many other financial institutions based in Edinburgh these figures alone show Edinburgh to be a major financial centre. But I guess you know best. And you're probably right. Those flights from LCY are probably full of City of London Bankers and their golf bags on their way to St Andrews just across the Firth of Forth from Edinburgh. But it still beats me why they operate through the whole of the day, especially in winter. I mean what are those London bankers going to do who arrive at EDI at 3.20pm just as its getting dark and they cannot get on to the tee until 9.00 am the following morning? Why don't they catch the BA8706, BA8712 OR BA8708 which all operate to EDI later in the day? I guess they have time and money to burn!


User currently onlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2018 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 20):
BA operate 8 dailies to LCY because they are serving the city of London. London is the business mecca, not EDI, I'm pretty sure.

Two way traffic. BACON have a contract with Royal Bank of Scotland who have their HQ very near EDI. Though overall I agree there will be more traffic to London than to Edinburgh



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineBaexecutive From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 725 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days ago) and read 1924 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 21):

LOL well said : )


User currently offlineDoor5Right From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 707 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1905 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 21):
what are those London bankers going to do who arrive at EDI at 3.20pm just as its getting dark and they cannot get on to the tee until 9.00 am the following morning?

Start at the nineteenth hole, of course!

I'd love to see Loganair back in the old colour scheme and with those lovely girls in the lovely tartan uniforms they wore. They always looked so smart and were most welcoming whether it was the Shorts 360s or the two Bae146s which came into the fleet for a while.



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My soul is in the sky...
25 Bmiexpat : Maybe we can consult the CCTV at the Juggle Juice bar. That would give us a rough idea of how many times you've been drunk!!!!!
26 BAOPS777 : With effect of MAR08 BACON was merged into the new larger flybe. Flights between EDI and LCY are operated by BA Cityflyer. AM load factors on the fir
27 JGPH1A : And yet all these people are going to London. Surely the world should be flocking to EDI with all that lovely money - 7 or 8 daily widebodies to New
28 Baexecutive : What are you on about? Edinburgh is the second most visited tourist destination outside London, Europes 6th most important financial centre and one o
29 BAOPS777 : Well said my friend and thus no reply funny that can't imagine why!!!!!!! You are right EDI is the fastest growing BAA Scottish airport and yes is ve
30 Post contains images BDKLEZ : Damn, my cover's been blown! Besides, I was just tired that day!
31 JGPH1A : I'm on about the fact that Loganair's home market is not huge. Despite possibly being the financial hub of the universe, Edinburgh has precious littl
32 Post contains links and images Strathpeffer : I too am interested in the future of Loganair - and am grateful to say that I haven't had any nightmare experiences of the airline on routes ex ABZ. I
33 Cornish : Loganair are flying some subsidised services of course - contracted until 2009 I believe. Campbletown, Barra and Tiree to glasgow I think are the ones
34 Post contains images JGPH1A : Or Kirkie
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