Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
United Pushes For New Narrowbody  
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4160 posts, RR: 36
Posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 16043 times:

Quote:
UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, the world's second-largest carrier, said it's asking Boeing Co. and Airbus SAS to develop a new narrowbody jet for its domestic fleet.

United wants ''the narrowbody equivalent'' of a Boeing 787 or an Airbus A350, so it's speaking with the planemakers about starting such a program, Chief Financial Officer Jake Brace said today at a Goldman, Sachs & Co. conference in New York.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...601103&sid=arObpOqlKP0c&refer=news

The next carrier pushing for it - but IMO it will take some time until we will really see something on this front from both Airbus and Boeing.


Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
73 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline4everRC From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 325 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 16021 times:

IMO, A and B will start considering this when 737s and A320s stop selling, or at least slows down


Nobody served our republic like Republic!
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15947 times:

Both Uni-ted and Air France can push all they want... but the reality is that the many many lovely things about the 787 don't scale down all that well. The major benefit will have to come from the engines, and neither vendor is ready.

United is right, however. They have one metric fuckton of 737s to retire and some reasonably old A320s and some of the first A319s. It doesn't make sense to do a big investment in the A320 right now if the NSR is around the bend, because they'd need to act on pretty much 100 airplanes.

Air France, a little less so. They just topped up, and have less 737s to contend (how many do they even fly these days?).
They're fine for the moment.

NS


User currently offlineATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1023 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15880 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

There was recently a thread on A.Net that talked about how the Boyd Group felt United was concerning itself with one thing, selling itself. Looking for new planes to be delivered after 2015 does not fit with that.

While I think UA would like to merge with someone, I think Boyd was off.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15828 times:

I don't think Boyd is wrong that their top officers are focused on that.

In the meantime, they do have an airline to run and are hedging against failure, and they have chief pilots and operations directors and VPs to look at new planes while Tilton bends over for prospective dates.

NS


User currently offlinePresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 660 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15758 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
The major benefit will have to come from the engines, and neither vendor is ready.

Pratt will be ready by 2013.


User currently offlineVisityyj From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15727 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
Air France, a little less so. They just topped up, and have less 737s to contend (how many do they even fly these days?).

None. (2 "stored" at Perpignan though).


User currently offlineTjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2419 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15711 times:

Isn't NWA pushing for the same thing, a composite narrow body?


Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15710 times:

Quoting PresRDC (Reply 5):
Pratt will be ready by 2013.

Unfortunately, I think you and I both know that neither manufacturer will launch a program based on Pratt and Whitney's word.

NS


User currently offlinePresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 660 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15632 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 8):
Unfortunately, I think you and I both know that neither manufacturer will launch a program based on Pratt and Whitney's word.

I strongly disagree.

Pratt will be ground testing its GTF eithe rlater this year or early next year and flight testing is set for some time next year.

Further, Pratt is under contract to develop the same type of engine for MHI by 2013. While this would obviously need to be scaled-up for a 737/A320, they are contractually committed to produce the core design by that time.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15615 times:

I hope you are right. I'll buy you a beer.

NS


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15544 times:

IIRC, WN has been pushing for this also.


"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15450 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
Both Uni-ted and Air France can push all they want...



Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 7):
Isn't NWA pushing for the same thing, a composite narrow body?

With these 3 large carriers, added to AA, CO, WN and DL, Boeing could launch the program right now and have an order book approaching 1000 including options. So it really leads one to believe they don't have the resources nor the engines to offer it yet.

Once the 787 is sorted out, expect Boeing to offer first. They have more to improve on over their 737NG than Airbus does over their A320 anyway, and the A320 is a stronger product which will get even stronger with the E versions arriving.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSkyexramper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15360 times:

United just needs to push itself onto the next 737 variant. What do they need outside the 737 family? After the bring in 737s to replace all their older 737s and A319/20s they can merge with Continental.

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15337 times:

They can merge with Continental now.

NS


User currently offline4everRC From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 325 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15243 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 14):
They can merge with Continental now.

...and sell their Airbii to the merged DL/NW!  duck 



Nobody served our republic like Republic!
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6343 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15236 times:

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Thread starter):
United wants ''the narrowbody equivalent'' of a Boeing 787 or an Airbus A350, so it's speaking with the planemakers about starting such a program, Chief Financial Officer Jake Brace said today at a Goldman, Sachs & Co. conference in New York.

Let's take the B787 as en example:

How much fuel savings would the aircraft realize, using current-generation engines with, say, bleedless technology and largely composite airframe construction? I'd say not much, which is why B and A are saying "it's the engines, dummy" and are holding out for the next generation in narrowbody engines, like geared turbofans...



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineMainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2096 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15074 times:

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Thread starter):
United wants ''the narrowbody equivalent'' of a Boeing 787 or an Airbus A350

If they want the 757 line to re-open (with 878/350 technology), why not just say so?

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
They have one metric fuckton of 737s to retire

That's a lot of 737s....! Almost a desert full.


User currently offlineFrontierflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15057 times:

UA needs new planes now not 5 10 years.

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15046 times:

Meh, IDK about that. I think they're doing ok with narrowbody capacity.

They definitely need widebody capacity...

NS


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15007 times:

Quote:
If they want the 757 line to re-open (with 878/350 technology), why not just say so?

I think they are (in their usual round-about speak), but THAT would be one heck of an airliner, yes? Amazing take-off performance with a lighter weight?  eyepopping 

As far as narrowbody demands, let's not forget that AA has some rather old Mad Dogs still flying and will be looking for something all new to replace them. Along with United and possibly NW, what about DL? Will they in the market for soon for replacing their 737's and 757's?



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9489 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 14866 times:

Quoting Frontierflyer (Reply 18):
UA needs new planes now not 5 10 years.

The United network is getting a ton of new airplanes, but all of them are Embraer 170s and CRJ-700s. The are replacing many 737s. But I look forward to more mainline planes entering the fleet. The mainline fleet has been shrinking for a while.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3802 posts, RR: 29
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 14744 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):
IIRC, WN has been pushing for this also.

In fact, Herb Kelleher has been quoted as telling a Boeing official that if Boeing could translate the technology of the 787 to an aircraft the size of a 737, WN would immediately place an order for 200 aircraft.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 14686 times:

So, is there a chance that the engine competition for the Y1/737RS and NSR could be CFM vs. Pratt, leaving RR out? While the market could theoretically support three engine manufacturers, it is up to Boeing/Airbus to decide on that. I personally think that the 787 market might have been able to support three engine manufacturers as well, but Boeing decided against it. CFM already has a proposed engine, the LEAP56. Since there is no word that IAE will develop a new engine, for now we should assume that RR and Pratt will develop engines independently for the 737RS/NSR.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2240 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 14646 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 22):
In fact, Herb Kelleher has been quoted as telling a Boeing official that if Boeing could translate the technology of the 787 to an aircraft the size of a 737, WN would immediately place an order for 200 aircraft.

Southwest is about the only US carrier with the checkbook to do it.

I don't see Airbus or Boeing going into any R&D debt for the US carriers wishes anytime soon. I"m sure both manufacturers are already studying 320/737 replacements. They'll both want to see demand from financially able customers before they start laying out the big money on development.

Another thought. When the new generation narrow body designs start showing up, Airbus and Boeing won't be the only two builders with offerings.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
25 Jacobin777 : ...B787 composite technology will be more efficient in twin-isle planes and long-haul domestic....that is where the essential weight savings will be.
26 Super80DFW : It hurts me to think of a LEGACY carrier asking a european company for new aircraft. Nothing against Airbus. Airbus is a very nice aircraft manufactur
27 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : I'm sure others will reply with how much of the content in Boeing aircraft is made overseas, and much of the content in an Airbus aircraft is made in
28 CEO@AFG : I've heard the statements made about composite fuselages not giving much weight reduction for a narrowbody vs. a widebody. Fair enough, one major poin
29 Ikramerica : Firm orders + options would be, right off the bat: CO 100 AA 150 WN 250 Ryanair 200 NW or UA 150 (I wouldn't assume both would go Boeing, one would g
30 CO777ER : I'd say more than that! But they need some more money first (duh). EWR - Europe / High-density domestic / Caribbean IAH - More South American routes
31 Post contains images Ikramerica : Well, they have 739ERs coming in, which already allows for 757s to be used for expansion. And the 757-300s will stick around for another 15 years, ma
32 DL767captain : Thats not a good idea for A or B, they should use the large 737 and A320 order book as a safety net so they have time to make a great replacement whi
33 Gigneil : PW doesn't even make engines for todays most popular narrowbodies. CFM owns the lions share due to its exclusivity on the 737 plus its about 50ish pe
34 Post contains images Platinumfoota : What UA really wants is a 757NG. 757 with better fuel efficiency and maybe a composite fuselage. UA uses the 757 for P.S service, Hawaii and between h
35 Post contains images Aerlingusa330 : True, But Boeing is an American-owned company and! American-owned means tax dollars
36 PresRDC : Sure it does, through IAE.
37 Post contains images UA_727 : -UA-
38 Gigneil : Iiii don't think that's all of it... I think UA, like a lot of folks, want a family of craft that are common that covers from about the 73G to a littl
39 PresRDC : I think, P&W still has the largest installed fleet, but the number is steadily declining as the fleet ages. Over time, it will lose-out to the CFM56.
40 BlueSkys : I may be completey wrong here, but should Boeing have never even thought of the 748 and just started on a 737/757 replacement? Seems like a much bette
41 N328KF : Well, keep in mind that AF/KL has been negotiating lately as a consolidated group. With that in mind, KL, Transavia NL and Transavia FR have substant
42 Ckfred : I think AA said a while back that it would prefer to order a new generation of narrowbodies, but it can't wait for the timetable that Boeing presumabl
43 Tdscanuck : The biggie problem with the GTF isn't the technology or performance, it's the durability. It's pretty easy to analyze a GTF on paper and know that it
44 Vctony : I am thinking that the new baseline aircraft size is around 135-140 seats (first + economy) (in between the 73G/319 and 738/320 (and around the size o
45 Asteriskceo : 752 replacement I assume?
46 Post contains images Aveugle : Maybe Boeing should make a next generation 757?
47 RDUDDJI : Wow. That's the same thing myself and others have been saying for over a year...(and is not really surprising to anyone who has a pulse). The composit
48 Commavia : Well, I think the question of scalability is one of the biggest issues/question marks that airlines are eagerly waiting to hear about regarding Boein
49 FlyboyOz : I thought UA have got the new aircraft already- i.e. B757-200 with winglets. It should be called B757-400. Similar to the 747's series. Looks like new
50 Burkhard : Without competition there will be no progress. If Airbus does not invest, Boeing will offer the 737NG still in 2020, and vice versa of course. Which
51 AirframeAS : The problem is that the B757 tooling has been destroyed. The B757 line is no more, as much as I hate to say it. Building the tooling again, I think,
52 Revelation : We all know the current narrowbodies will be replaced by next generation ones, but boy does that transition sound difficult to me. Both manufacturers
53 SPREE34 : Not when delivery is taken while airborn offshore.
54 Indy : Would you really even need to go that far? Perhaps just a 757-200 with winglets like NW is using for long haul service. Use those for domestic flying
55 Samurai 777 : What about the 797 series, which I thought Boeing is considering as a successor to the 737 family?
56 TSS : Although from the inside looking out a 757 appears to be nothing more than a very long 737, they're actually quite different aircraft and have very f
57 BrightCedars : It's obvious that all these people want is a bigger discount on what neither Airbus nor Boeing are ready to give. The B737 and A320 programs are maxin
58 CRJ900 : Will United try to venture into the 76-100-seat market with CRJ900/1000 and/or E190 by having their regional partners buy these aircraft and integrat
59 Scbriml : Neither manufacturer will move before one and probably two suitable engines are available or committed to by the engine manufacturers. Now here's the
60 Gigneil : Its not pathetic. Its business, and that's how its done. NS
61 Ckfred : You're quite right. If AA could replace the retired F100s (75 planes, and probably more), the MD-80s (well over 300), evenutally the 757s (125 or so)
62 Tdscanuck : Sales don't make revenue, deliveries do. If Boeing and Airbus stopped selling airplanes tomorrow, they'd be in production (at full rate) for 3-4 year
63 Boeing7E7 : Narrowbody: 110 (Maybe) 130 150 170 190 230 Two wings, baseline (ADG-III) and LR (757 or slightly larger). Possibly two fuses at the upper end.[Edite
64 Post contains images Revelation : Besides, there's a lot of risk in killing the goose that's laying the golden eggs. The transition will go a lot smoother if the markets for the exsit
65 Flymad : Maybe I'm just being cynical, but in todays corporate world (and especially in aviation), there is no room for patriotism. EVERYTHING revolves around
66 Ferengi80 : IIRC, the 787 was originally designed as a replacement for the 757 and the 767. I don't see a need for another Airbus narrowbody, as the A320 family i
67 Post contains links and images Keesje : I think Southwest, American, United and other fleetmanagers talk to each other. They know the technology & enablers for more efficient aircraft. The s
68 Tdscanuck : Losing it to who? If both Boeing and Airbus are saying the same thing, what are the credible options for alternatives in the near/medium term? Beyond
69 Post contains images Ken777 : First, I think, Boeing wants to build a plant to make fasteners. I don't think that it is an issue of putting pressure on A or B, but putting pressure
70 Post contains images Keesje : "Thank you for visiting us and explaining your position. Last week Pratt representatives were with us told us they can have a better engine ready in
71 Tdscanuck : Are you seriously suggesting that A & B would run the narrow bodies as loss-leaders to enhance widebody sales? Tom.
72 1337Delta764 : Speaking of this, what if Boeing produces a stubby widebody instead of a narrowbody? This was proposed on the 7J7, using a 2-2-2 seating layout. I per
73 Post contains links PresRDC : Another win for Pratt's GTF!! http://www.ainonline.com/news/single...t-gtf/?no_cache=1&cHash=ea0e64e0e6
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Ted In Disguise -- The Plot For A New United posted Wed Jul 7 2004 04:51:43 by FLY777UAL
Idea For New F/a Uniforms At United posted Wed Dec 13 2000 02:05:13 by ILUV767
WSJ: VS Looks For New Long Haul Jumbos From 2012 posted Thu Oct 18 2007 07:32:13 by N328KF
United 767 With New Interior posted Fri Oct 5 2007 05:03:40 by Vegas005
Airline Alliances Aim For New Efficiencies posted Mon Sep 17 2007 20:58:41 by RJpieces
Big "Global Tourism" Announcement For New York? posted Fri Aug 24 2007 17:02:27 by Drgmobile
Hemus Air In Talks For New Fleet posted Fri Aug 10 2007 15:14:48 by Flying-Tiger
RFD Reaches For New Allegiant Base Flights posted Thu Aug 2 2007 22:44:11 by KarlB737
Any Ideas For NEw Routes At LGB? posted Fri Jul 27 2007 06:17:15 by A380fo
Developement And Delivery Time For New A/C posted Thu Jul 26 2007 20:40:37 by Mlglaw