Flying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4141 posts, RR: 38 Posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15501 times:
Quote: UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, the world's second-largest carrier, said it's asking Boeing Co. and Airbus SAS to develop a new narrowbody jet for its domestic fleet.
United wants ''the narrowbody equivalent'' of a Boeing 787 or an Airbus A350, so it's speaking with the planemakers about starting such a program, Chief Financial Officer Jake Brace said today at a Goldman, Sachs & Co. conference in New York.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16313 posts, RR: 87 Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15405 times:
Both Uni-ted and Air France can push all they want... but the reality is that the many many lovely things about the 787 don't scale down all that well. The major benefit will have to come from the engines, and neither vendor is ready.
United is right, however. They have one metric fuckton of 737s to retire and some reasonably old A320s and some of the first A319s. It doesn't make sense to do a big investment in the A320 right now if the NSR is around the bend, because they'd need to act on pretty much 100 airplanes.
Air France, a little less so. They just topped up, and have less 737s to contend (how many do they even fly these days?).
They're fine for the moment.
ATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1018 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15338 times:
There was recently a thread on A.Net that talked about how the Boyd Group felt United was concerning itself with one thing, selling itself. Looking for new planes to be delivered after 2015 does not fit with that.
While I think UA would like to merge with someone, I think Boyd was off.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16313 posts, RR: 87 Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15286 times:
I don't think Boyd is wrong that their top officers are focused on that.
In the meantime, they do have an airline to run and are hedging against failure, and they have chief pilots and operations directors and VPs to look at new planes while Tilton bends over for prospective dates.
PresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 651 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15090 times:
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 8): Unfortunately, I think you and I both know that neither manufacturer will launch a program based on Pratt and Whitney's word.
I strongly disagree.
Pratt will be ground testing its GTF eithe rlater this year or early next year and flight testing is set for some time next year.
Further, Pratt is under contract to develop the same type of engine for MHI by 2013. While this would obviously need to be scaled-up for a 737/A320, they are contractually committed to produce the core design by that time.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21314 posts, RR: 60 Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 14908 times:
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2): Both Uni-ted and Air France can push all they want...
Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 7): Isn't NWA pushing for the same thing, a composite narrow body?
With these 3 large carriers, added to AA, CO, WN and DL, Boeing could launch the program right now and have an order book approaching 1000 including options. So it really leads one to believe they don't have the resources nor the engines to offer it yet.
Once the 787 is sorted out, expect Boeing to offer first. They have more to improve on over their 737NG than Airbus does over their A320 anyway, and the A320 is a stronger product which will get even stronger with the E versions arriving.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Skyexramper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 14818 times:
United just needs to push itself onto the next 737 variant. What do they need outside the 737 family? After the bring in 737s to replace all their older 737s and A319/20s they can merge with Continental.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6161 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 14694 times:
Quoting Flying-Tiger (Thread starter): United wants ''the narrowbody equivalent'' of a Boeing 787 or an Airbus A350, so it's speaking with the planemakers about starting such a program, Chief Financial Officer Jake Brace said today at a Goldman, Sachs & Co. conference in New York.
Let's take the B787 as en example:
How much fuel savings would the aircraft realize, using current-generation engines with, say, bleedless technology and largely composite airframe construction? I'd say not much, which is why B and A are saying "it's the engines, dummy" and are holding out for the next generation in narrowbody engines, like geared turbofans...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9 Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14465 times:
Quote: If they want the 757 line to re-open (with 878/350 technology), why not just say so?
I think they are (in their usual round-about speak), but THAT would be one heck of an airliner, yes? Amazing take-off performance with a lighter weight?
As far as narrowbody demands, let's not forget that AA has some rather old Mad Dogs still flying and will be looking for something all new to replace them. Along with United and possibly NW, what about DL? Will they in the market for soon for replacing their 737's and 757's?
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
The United network is getting a ton of new airplanes, but all of them are Embraer 170s and CRJ-700s. The are replacing many 737s. But I look forward to more mainline planes entering the fleet. The mainline fleet has been shrinking for a while.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
In fact, Herb Kelleher has been quoted as telling a Boeing official that if Boeing could translate the technology of the 787 to an aircraft the size of a 737, WN would immediately place an order for 200 aircraft.
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6258 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 14144 times:
So, is there a chance that the engine competition for the Y1/737RS and NSR could be CFM vs. Pratt, leaving RR out? While the market could theoretically support three engine manufacturers, it is up to Boeing/Airbus to decide on that. I personally think that the 787 market might have been able to support three engine manufacturers as well, but Boeing decided against it. CFM already has a proposed engine, the LEAP56. Since there is no word that IAE will develop a new engine, for now we should assume that RR and Pratt will develop engines independently for the 737RS/NSR.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
SPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2159 posts, RR: 10 Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 14104 times:
Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 22): In fact, Herb Kelleher has been quoted as telling a Boeing official that if Boeing could translate the technology of the 787 to an aircraft the size of a 737, WN would immediately place an order for 200 aircraft.
Southwest is about the only US carrier with the checkbook to do it.
I don't see Airbus or Boeing going into any R&D debt for the US carriers wishes anytime soon. I"m sure both manufacturers are already studying 320/737 replacements. They'll both want to see demand from financially able customers before they start laying out the big money on development.
Another thought. When the new generation narrow body designs start showing up, Airbus and Boeing won't be the only two builders with offerings.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
25 Jacobin777: ...B787 composite technology will be more efficient in twin-isle planes and long-haul domestic....that is where the essential weight savings will be.
26 Super80DFW: It hurts me to think of a LEGACY carrier asking a european company for new aircraft. Nothing against Airbus. Airbus is a very nice aircraft manufactur
27 PlanesNTrains: I'm sure others will reply with how much of the content in Boeing aircraft is made overseas, and much of the content in an Airbus aircraft is made in
28 CEO@AFG: I've heard the statements made about composite fuselages not giving much weight reduction for a narrowbody vs. a widebody. Fair enough, one major poin
29 Ikramerica: Firm orders + options would be, right off the bat: CO 100 AA 150 WN 250 Ryanair 200 NW or UA 150 (I wouldn't assume both would go Boeing, one would g
30 CO777ER: I'd say more than that! But they need some more money first (duh). EWR - Europe / High-density domestic / Caribbean IAH - More South American routes
31 Ikramerica: Well, they have 739ERs coming in, which already allows for 757s to be used for expansion. And the 757-300s will stick around for another 15 years, ma
32 DL767captain: Thats not a good idea for A or B, they should use the large 737 and A320 order book as a safety net so they have time to make a great replacement whi
33 Gigneil: PW doesn't even make engines for todays most popular narrowbodies. CFM owns the lions share due to its exclusivity on the 737 plus its about 50ish pe
34 Platinumfoota: What UA really wants is a 757NG. 757 with better fuel efficiency and maybe a composite fuselage. UA uses the 757 for P.S service, Hawaii and between h
35 Aerlingusa330: True, But Boeing is an American-owned company and! American-owned means tax dollars