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Southwest UK Aviation Thread #1  
User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2157 times:

As a member for over 5 months, I am shocked to discover that apart from the Manchester news, the UK is hugely overlooked when it comes to reccuring aviation threads. I am readressing that balance.

This thread focuses on Southwest UK Aviation (If it is West of SOU and South OF BHX, it counts!) but wandering off into other topics isn't stopped.

To get the ball rolling:

What will happen at NQY after the Armed forces have pulled out? CCC says that it will remain open, but will it profit?

Will St. Mary's ever lengthen its runway over the cliff a la Madiera to let larger Props in?

Will PLH have problems with lack of space when part of the airport land is sold for development?

When will the FCA EXT based aircraft arive?

What will Palmair repace the 732s with when they are finally finished?

When will another T/A service to the region be announced (outside of BRS for CO and EXT and BHX for TS)?

Will SOU get BE service to the cities aquired from BAcon which are MAN and BHX originating?

Will the BA maintainance base at CWL close to be relocated in London?

Since the new EI base was in BFS, when will BHX get an EI base (as rumored before)?

I heard that a new airline was going to be starting small prop ops from Staverton/Gloucestershire, is this true?

Alex.


AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11690 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2138 times:

Quoting EXTspotter (Thread starter):
Will St. Mary's ever lengthen its runway over the cliff a la Madiera to let larger Props in?

I would very much doubt this, the current flights could do with frequency increases if anything before upgrading to larger aircraft which would just be harder to fill during the low winter season - much of the tourist traffic arrives via the Scilonian and the Helicoptor from Penzance anyway. But, in the long term, I can see the Isles of Scilly SkyBus purchasing one or perhaps two of the updated DHC6-400 offered by Viking. G-BIHO was constructed in 1981 and G-CBML in 1980, so they're not too young on their legs... although having said that, the Twotters do seem to go on forever!

Quoting EXTspotter (Thread starter):
Will PLH have problems with lack of space when part of the airport land is sold for development?

This depends on exactly how much land will get taken over by housing. I can see more of a problem with even more annoying NIMBY's taking up residence in the local area for a start... The money though from the sale should hopefully inject a lot of cash into expansion of the current runway to the East. The land has provisionally been assigned, with one former warehouse already cleared and land use on that site restricted to 'temporary' only.

Quoting EXTspotter (Thread starter):
I heard that a new airline was going to be starting small prop ops from Staverton/Gloucestershire, is this true?

Manx2 per chance? They have already commenced operations from the Isle of Man to the Channel Islands, via Gloucester Airport.


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineMhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2134 times:

Manx2 have ops into Glucestershire already; is this what you mean?


No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2129 times:

No, I mean a proper airline based in Staverton/Glos

My sister lives in Cheltenham claims to have heard something about it, but it could be just this...

What is the largest aircraft that can use PLH at the moment? I remeber you said that the Q400 couldn't, but could a 146?



AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

Quoting EXTspotter (Thread starter):
When will the FCA EXT based aircraft arive?

Already there. FCA have had a winter base for a few years

Quoting EXTspotter (Thread starter):
Will SOU get BE service to the cities aquired from BAcon which are MAN and BHX originating?

It already has service to most of the BACON cities

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 1):
Manx2 per chance? They have already commenced operations from the Isle of Man to the Channel Islands, via Gloucester Airport.

And doing well I think



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2117 times:

Can you actually buy a ticket to JER or IOM from Glos, in the same way that you can buy a ticket from GCI - JER on BE's EXT - GCI - JER - GCI - EXT?


AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11690 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2099 times:

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 3):
What is the largest aircraft that can use PLH at the moment? I remeber you said that the Q400 couldn't, but could a 146?

Well, in theory yes, they both could quite easily (146's fly off 800m runways in some places!) - so long as they didn't have any pax onboard; the runway at PLH is 1161m long, which isn't much off that of LCY. However, one of the major difficulties is PLH's elevation and proximity to Dartmoor, which throws a diverse range of 'interesting' weather conditions at it and hampers operations even with the Dash 8s - for the 146 these conditions would not be conducive as it would extend their braking distance beyond the length of the actual tarmac available... We do get the occasional one in, normally the Royal Flight, and some others have visited on rare occasions.

What does interest me is the production by ATR of a more powerful (uprated engines) version of the ATR-72, capable of lifting itself fully loaded from runways as short as 900m. That could be one answer to expansion in the short term - even if the extension process was started today, I doubt we would see it completed for five years due to planning and then construction time.


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineJmc757 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2000, 1301 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2099 times:

For a moment I thought Southwest were starting a UK airline!!

User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7766 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2072 times:

I think that Palmair will replace the B737-200 with B737-500.

User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2068 times:

Quoting Jmc757 (Reply 7):
For a moment I thought Southwest were starting a UK airline!!

Don't be silly, they'd be murdered by Ryanair anyway...

On that subject, how long until FR increases flights to NQY? The market could do with more than 1 738 a day.

We know FR is doing well at BRS vs U2 and Baby at CWL, but how well is BOH going?



AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11690 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2058 times:

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 9):
On that subject, how long until FR increases flights to NQY? The market could do with more than 1 738 a day.

Even if the market could support it, I'm not sure we'll see any more FR flights into NQY - it depends just how spiteful they wish to be. They had a bit of a showdown with the airports operators regarding the £5 'development charge' levied on all passengers over the age of 16 (which basically keeps NQY open), threatened to pull out completely, but in the end only reduced the frequency to one flight a day from the previous two. I seem to remember they wanted the charge abolished, so I can't see them returning any time soon...


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineCaaardiff From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 191 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 9):
We know FR is doing well at BRS vs U2 and Baby at CWL, but how well is BOH going?

TOM is also well established at BOH.

Indeed Baby are doing ok at Cardiff, but dont seem to be going anywhere. CWL is still waiting for its 4th a/c and theres not much evidence to show its coming! 2 new routes to Poland have been annouced, but its assumed this is to sacrifice other routes for the time being.
With EZY up to 10/11 a/c, and Ryanair just starting out with 2 already at BRS, its obvious baby need to pull their dypers up!
Its a shame that as capital of Wales, CWL doesnt really have any input to this thread, as theres nothing going on!!
Its just a waiting game to see if anything does come from FlyForBeans.

There was talk that B.A.M.C would be expanding to accomodate more a/c, and different types. The land is there, and cheaper than LON.


User currently offlineJmc757 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2000, 1301 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1979 times:

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 8):
I think that Palmair will replace the B737-200 with B737-500.

It all depends on European Aircharter. I don't even know if they are looking for any fleet replacement. They own the aircraft they currently operate, and I imagine that they would only get scrap value for them. There has been much speculation as to whether there is enough money in the business to buy, or even lease replacements. That said, the 732's are very well maintained, there could well be a few years left in them (unless they are forced out due to noise requirements).

Also, Palmair/Bath Travel only contract European to do their flying, they could easily contract another airline such as Astraeus.


User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1970 times:

Bath Travel could always do that, but I just can't see it happening, the whole point of Palmair is an improved quality Charter Airline - this helps Bath Travel as a large (not huge) tour operator as it gives them the USPs to charge more and continue to compete in the market vs the big boys.

Also on the FR at NQY thing, if FR are so unhappy with NQY, why not just move it to the next nearest 737-able airport and gun down BE on its own patch? that seems a very FR thing to do.



AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11690 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1964 times:

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 13):
Also on the FR at NQY thing, if FR are so unhappy with NQY, why not just move it to the next nearest 737-able airport and gun down BE on its own patch? that seems a very FR thing to do.

Well, the nearest alternative would be EXT, which just would not be viable. Train journey times to Newquay from London are at least 6 hours, a car journey isn't much less by the time you factor in stops, however, Exeter can be reached in just a couple of hours by train on the much faster lines available past the Devon banks and by road in three hours or less - depending quite how fast you wish to go. As for setting up a hub at EXT, that wouldn't work either; with the newly established BRS base just an hour up the road there would be no point I'm afraid. I could see a DUB-EXT-DUB rotation possibly working, but that's about all.


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1931 times:

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 5):
Can you actually buy a ticket to JER or IOM from Glos, in the same way that you can buy a ticket from GCI - JER on BE's EXT - GCI - JER - GCI - EXT?

Yes. IOM-GLO is twice daily on weekdays and designed for business travellers between the IOM and the South Midlands/South West/South Wales, as well as leisure travellers

The extension to JER is twice a week, aimed at passengers from both the IOM and GLO. For IOM-JER passengers there is competition from non stop Blue Islands services, which run 6 times a week I think

Manx 2 also offer connections from GLO to BHD via IOM



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

Its interesting that they have advertised it on their website as Gloucestershire M5. I would have thought that calling it Cheltenham/Gloucester M5 would be better for stimulating O+D demand from both the business travellers and leisure travellers.


AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
User currently offlineJmc757 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2000, 1301 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1887 times:

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 13):
Bath Travel could always do that, but I just can't see it happening, the whole point of Palmair is an improved quality Charter Airline - this helps Bath Travel as a large (not huge) tour operator as it gives them the USPs to charge more and continue to compete in the market vs the big boys

Why does that mean they couldn't change operators? IIRC, Bath Travel/Palmair pay European to provide the aircraft and pilots to fly the routes. They have their own recruitment process for cabin crew and employ them themselves as Palmair employees. They used to use Flightline 146s, hence Palmair Flightline, and then Palmair European (although in recent years its just Palmair). The 732s, although could go on for a few more years, won't last forever. European have already mothballed a few due to financial reasons. I can't comment on the financial state of European, but like I said there has been much speculation as to their ability to replace the fleet, even by leasing.

Astraeus, for example, could provide the same service for Palmair, as could any ACMI airline. We'll provide pilots and aircraft, tailored to your needs, you provide cabin crews. Its not that i've anything against European, in fact I will always fondly remember the BHX-PMI and back I had a couple of years ago as a great experience, but at the moment their future seems unclear. At the end of the day business is business, if another company offer Palmair a better deal, why wouldn't they take it?


User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1857 times:

How do you think the seasonal Chambery flights on WOW will do? I would have thought that operating to a bigger destination (Paris, Amsterdam) on the continent first may hav been a better idea, but how about you?


AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11690 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1843 times:

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 18):
How do you think the seasonal Chambery flights on WOW will do? I would have thought that operating to a bigger destination (Paris, Amsterdam) on the continent first may hav been a better idea, but how about you?

I'm sure they have thought about operations to larger airports, but with that there are higher landing fees and much higher slot procurement costs. I'm sure Plymouth to Chamberry could/will be a winner, but WHY is it not on sale yet? The flights are supposed to start on the 20th December, and still you cannot book them! Plus, where on earth are you going to put 50 sets of skis and other luggage on a Dash 8 - admittedly I don't work with the aircraft, but the hold doesn't look huge. As and when it does come online, I will take the flight, just for the hell of it - I'm useless at skiing. I presume the flight will route PLH-NQY-CMF, fueled for a 600 mile flight and 50 pax + luggage off the runway at Plymouth could be pushing it otherwise.

A veeery long time ago I heard a rumor that IB/Air Nostrum had an interest in PLH from BIO, but I am pretty sure that was just a case of wishful thinking by someone...


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineBMED From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 860 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1807 times:

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 8):
I think that Palmair will replace the B737-200 with B737-500

I would have thought that due to increased competion that the 737-500 might end up being too big? In an ideal world maybe a ERJ-195 would be a good aircraft for them but I don't think thats happening.

Quoting Jmc757 (Reply 17):
Astraeus, for example, could provide the same service for Palmair

I thought that Astraeus would be a good opition too

Could someone confirm if Titan has a BAe146 down at BOH cause if they do, how about swapping it for a 737QC and using that aircraft for palmair flights in the day and then use it for the mail flights. I'm not 100% sure though how to overcome the late night arrival flights and if an aircraft went tech down route what would happen to the mail flights.



Living the jetset life! No better way to be
User currently offlineBmiBaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1822 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1806 times:

Rumours are of Easyjet taking over the BASCO hangar at Bournemouth, but we've had many rumours about this hangar... so anyone heared anymore?

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 8):
I think that Palmair will replace the B737-200 with B737-500.



Quoting Jmc757 (Reply 12):
It all depends on European Aircharter. I don't even know if they are looking for any fleet replacement.

Funny enough, apperently they've just got a "new" 737-200! F-GIXA is at the companys home of Bournemouth.

Quoting BMED (Reply 20):
Could someone confirm if Titan has a BAe146 down at BOH cause if they do, how about swapping it for a 737QC and using that aircraft for palmair flights in the day and then use it for the mail flights. I'm not 100% sure though how to overcome the late night arrival flights and if an aircraft went tech down route what would happen to the mail flights.

Boeing 737-300QC G-ZAPW has been based for a couple of years now. Titan is too much money for Palmair, and apperently Astraeus wouldn't sign a contract with Palmair as they dont do many flights.

bmibaby737


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1775 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 19):
The flights are supposed to start on the 20th December, and still you cannot book them!

20th December 2008  

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 18):
How do you think the seasonal Chambery flights on WOW will do? I would have thought that operating to a bigger destination (Paris, Amsterdam) on the continent first may hav been a better idea, but how about you?

A few factors to consider here:

Saturdays have less flight on the business orientated routes - in summer they can use the aircraft more out of NQY but not so in winter. Chambery is good utilisation on a winter Saturday
Slots at AMS, CDG etc aren't easy to get
To offer a useful schedule I would have thought 4-5 flights a week would be needed. To fit these in, other flights would have to be dropped, or an extra aircraft brought in

[Edited 2007-11-09 09:57:10]


Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1765 times:

WOW would do better by buying/leasing in more Dashers/ATRs and some smaller aircraft (Twotter/Trislander/Beech King Air) to start service to more domestic and channel airports. They could do well on PLH/NQY - St Marys/Alderney/Guernsey/Southampton/Brest/Waterford/Cheltenham-Gloucester/Lorient/Nantes... Adding frequencies to BRS/LGW/DUB could be good too...


AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11690 posts, RR: 60
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1748 times:

Quoting Humberside (Reply 22):
20th December 2008

I didn't read that far into the small print - thanks  Smile I did wonder why they announced it so late, then again, their previous new flights were not announced that early!

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 23):
WOW would do better by buying/leasing in more Dashers/ATRs and some smaller aircraft (Twotter/Trislander/Beech King Air) to start service to more domestic and channel airports. They could do well on PLH/NQY - St Marys/Alderney/Guernsey/Southampton/Brest/Waterford/Cheltenham-Gloucester/Lorient/Nantes... Adding frequencies to BRS/LGW/DUB could be good too...

As soon as you start diversifying fleet types you incur much higher overheads, they really have no need of them either. As it is, I don't think they will be needing or buying any extra aircraft, they currently have five Dash 8-300s but only need four for their present schedule (IIRC) and, it looks like the newly unveiled flights can be done with a single aircraft - although I admit it will be very tight and there would be a lot of knock on delays if anything went wrong, so it would be useful to have a spare;

07:00 PLH-NQY-NCL 09:10
09:35 NCL-NQY-PLH 11:05
11:25 PLH-NQY-DUB 13:10 or 11:25 PLH-NQY-ORK 13:05
13:40 DUB-NQY-PLH 14:55 or 13:50 ORK-NQY-PLH 14:55
15:15 PLH-NQY-GLA 17:40
18:05 GLA-NQY-PLH 20:25

Flights to St Marys are already provided for, Air Southwest don't sell seats on SkyBus, but they are advertised by them and the WOW flights allow you to connect at BRS or more sensibly NQY. It would be nice to have further connections to the Channel Islands, but with so many flights available from EXT just up the road it would be hard pressed to work, there isn't a big enough market as there are relatively few business links between the regions. Cheltenham and Gloucester would never work, almost all pax who fly on the PLH-BRS-PLH sector are travelling onwards by air and even then, usually it's just a handful of passengers, between 2 and 5. Extra flights on the LGW rotation would work; flights are almost always full, during the summer they ran an extra frequency from NQY.


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
25 Humberside : The aircraft for the expansion is currently used for charters with BRS based crew. That crew base will close though when the aircraft moves to schedu
26 EXTspotter : I feel that by getting more Dash 8s, they could slowly expand the market in Devon and Cornwall avoiding EXT and BRS. It would lower the prices at EXT!
27 B747forever : Is it SAS Dash 8s they are going to get???
28 Shamrock604 : Yes, and BE could do with the competition... their schedule is terrible, and loads, while sustainable, arent exactly astounding, and personally, I th
29 Post contains images PlymSpotter : I agree - FlyBe are getting very expensive these days, but then I suppose the price of fuel is too... WOW are expanding, it's just they don't current
30 EXTspotter : It would make a change from the Q400s and E195s that are forever wizzing overhead. I prefer easterly winds as then they use 08 which means that they a
31 B747forever : But if they are really cheap, maybe we can see airlines take over them.
32 Post contains images PlymSpotter : I was sure that they used to, but it appears they don't any more according to FR's site. That would depend on just who's side of the story you believ
33 EXTspotter : Even if it wasn't Bombardier's fault, I still wouldn't buy the SAS ones, too much negative press could come of it. Does FR serve Jersey? That has more
34 B747forever : Dont think so.
35 EXTspotter : More than 1 then, EXT, CWL, JER: GLA GCI NWI LHR BFS Thats 8 over 500,000 a year. There are probably more I've missed.
36 Post contains images PlymSpotter : As mentioned, excluding LHR, only two of those are in England (EXT and NWI) as I didn't want to touch on the whole serving airports miles away from t
37 EXTspotter : I thought you were an honest to god Ambrosia luv'r. But your not, ewe charlatan! Only joking. We share a common goal. Laughing at Cornish.
38 Post contains images PlymSpotter : I'm all but about three months a Devonian raised lad
39 EXTspotter : I am a half Brum. We al have horrible secrets. Bloody father's Dudley Blood.
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