Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
How Is Delta Doing On JFK-KBP Route?  
User currently offlineAddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6503 times:

... load factors, yields, etc.... how much business (e.g. not VFR) traffic is there on the route?

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offline747fan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1186 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6437 times:

I heard in a relatively recent thread that JFK-KBP is a solid performer for DL. Somebody even mentioned that it still maintained good performance in the winter of '06. I don't know about load factors, however. But apparently the market is large enough to serve two flights (although neither one is daily, at least not during the winter), as Aerosvit (the Ukrainian national airline) also runs a 763ER on Kiev Boryspil-JFK, however I don't know how well this route performs for VV.
In a recent thread (I think the one about DL's 3rd quarter performance), I remember someone mentioning that a DL executive said one of the reasons for DL's recent success is due to their European network out of JFK. The thing about DL's JFK operation is that their "bread and butter" routes such as JFK-FRA, AMS, and BRU struggle (hence the reason they're being downgraded from a 767 to 757). On the other hand, despite being thinner markets, DL's flights from JFK to places such as KBP, OTP, and ACC perform much better for them and could probably be considered lucrative. So this tells me that JFK-KBP is likely a fairly high-yielding flight for Delta Air Lines and probably has solid business traffic. I'm obviously not a DL or JFK employee and have no inside information on this route, so correct me if any of the above information is wrong.


User currently offlineAddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6391 times:

For the life of me, I can not understand how DLl manages to pull off successful hub operation at JFK. I can see how some of their flights that have a large O&D base in NYC area (SVO, KBP, ACC, etc.) may have decent perormance, but their feeder network into JFK is so thin, and connecting through JFK is such a hassle.... I just don;t get it.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32723 posts, RR: 72
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6372 times:

While I have no idea how the flight is doing now, when it launched, it performed fairly poorly during it's first summer. There is little business traffic on the route. Though I'm sure it's performance has improved since it launched. The KBP flight gets a lot of connections from FLL and SEA.


a.
User currently offlineJetSetter629 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6344 times:

Sort of off topic and I do not want to open a can of worms on this one, but doesn't DL add service to WAW? They have every other major city in central and eastern Europe connected, so why not WAW?

Rob


User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6317 times:

Quoting JetSetter629 (Reply 4):
Sort of off topic and I do not want to open a can of worms on this one, but doesn't DL add service to WAW? They have every other major city in central and eastern Europe connected, so why not WAW?

Delta has talked about it and LED, but haven't quite lived up to their word, yet. I was surprised these two didn't come in the recent announcements...Maybe there are more to come? If not I guess they're saving WAW and LED for next summer..



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineAddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6214 times:

Good question about WAW - I did not realize that NO U.S. carrier currently flies to Poland, and LO is the only airline flying direct US-Poland routes... There MUST be a logical explanation for this, although I can not find one... Smile

User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6558 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6198 times:

Aerosvit KBP-JFK does well. The flight goes out full on a consistent basis. That airline is a client of my company and I talk to them regularly. Some nice folks over there.

User currently offlineJetSetter629 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6182 times:

Quoting Addd (Reply 6):
Good question about WAW - I did not realize that NO U.S. carrier currently flies to Poland, and LO is the only airline flying direct US-Poland routes... There MUST be a logical explanation for this, although I can not find one...

I agree...no US airlines fly there. With a country with such a large population, stable government, and growing economy, would make for a great route. LO does have Poland connected well with WAW-JFK,ORD and KRK-JFK,ORD, but there is capacity to add...


User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5131 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6135 times:

Quoting JetSetter629 (Reply 8):
With a country with such a large population, stable government, and growing economy, would make for a great route

Don't forget that since joining the EU Poland has lost most of it's workforce and executives. They're all over western europe now. Sometimes I can see more Polish cars in The Hague then Dutch. We even have Polish supermarkets and bars here by the dozen. It's a sad thing for Poland, but I can't see the business yet for a US-Poland flight.

KL911


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6106 times:

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 5):
If not I guess they're saving WAW and LED for next summer..



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
There is little business traffic on the route.

but if leisure traffic is high enough priced, it can work nicely.

Quoting Addd (Reply 6):
There MUST be a logical explanation for this, although I can not find one...

Poland is the largest eastern Europe market after Russia but it is heavily concentrated in Chicago where DL is not strong.

The real reason is that DL has better opportunities for airplanes and they obviously believe Africa and the Middle East has huge untapped potential since almost all of their growth next year is in that area.


User currently offlineB767300ER From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 184 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5983 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

As a DL TLV / LLBG), Israel">LOD F/ A based out of JFK I must reply to the comment of the DL "thin" feeding flights to our trans Atlantic flights.Working mainly the Eastern European destination we recieve a lage number pf connecting PAX from our Florida and
southeastern USA flights. In addition I have noticed an increase in NW and CO connecting PAX at JFK. Many of
our PAX are not O/D at JFK. Naturally, the two flights I work out of ATL. to DXB and TLV have very few O/D PAX.


User currently offlineAddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5759 times:

Quoting B767300ER (Reply 11):
As a DL TLV / LLBG), Israel">LOD F/ A based out of JFK I must reply to the comment of the DL "thin" feeding flights to our trans Atlantic flights.Working mainly the Eastern European destination we recieve a lage number pf connecting PAX from our Florida and
southeastern USA flights. In addition I have noticed an increase in NW and CO connecting PAX at JFK. Many of
our PAX are not O/D at JFK. Naturally, the two flights I work out of ATL. to DXB and TLV have very few O/D PAX

Of all flights, I would expect JFK-TLV to have a lot of O&D traffic in New York Smile

To your comment, though - no doubt, there are connecting passengers flying overseas throught JFK - I am just surprised that Delta can make the hub at JFK work for international traffic with so few domestic feeder flights (as compared, for example, with DL in ATL, UA and AA in ORD or, for that matter, CO at EWR).


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5730 times:

Quoting Addd (Reply 12):
I am just surprised that Delta can make the hub at JFK work for international traffic with so few domestic feeder flights (as compared, for example,

DL has added a whole lot of feeder flights at JFK, which is one of the reasons JFK was such a clusterfvck this year, with essentially all feeder flights timed to connect to their Euro flights. Granted, it's less than at ATL, but then again, NYC does offer somewhat more O&D  Wink .


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1875 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5698 times:

Quoting Addd (Reply 6):
I did not realize that NO U.S. carrier currently flies to Poland, and LO is the only airline flying direct US-Poland routes... There MUST be a logical explanation for this, although I can not find one...

Of course there is: it is called Okecie Terminal 2. If you thought A380 delay was bad, google the info about this one. It is the reason why more and more folks avoid connecting through WAW and why every carrier with rapid expansion strategy is avoiding the airport until the mess is finally cleaned up.



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17439 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5675 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 7):
Aerosvit KBP-JFK does well. The flight goes out full on a consistent basis.

DL runs full too, in fact a smidge more full than VV.

In related news, DL just day of weeked JFK/LGW in Feb08--down to six weekly flights  

[Edited 2007-11-08 08:16:25]


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineJFK787NYC From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5651 times:

JFK-KBP is a solid performer I have been on this flight many times even connecting from their to different places in Europe.

Business Elite is only $2065 no matter when you fly. Because Aerosvit charges $1700 Business Class.

American Airlines sells tickets to Kiev operated by AeroSvit from JFK. They have an inter-line agreement.

AeroSvit is a horrible airline I personally do not like it but it is $750 dollars round trip from JFK.

Delta is around $800


User currently offlineB767300ER From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 184 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5456 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

In response to Addd, DL JFK-TLV flights are all code share with El Al, El Al planes and crew. DL will start our own
flights to TLV from JFK in March '08.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4895 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5206 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Addd (Reply 2):
I can see how some of their flights that have a large O&D base in NYC area (SVO, KBP, ACC, etc.) may have decent perormance, but their feeder network into JFK is so thin, and connecting through JFK is such a hassle.... I just don;t get it.

You don't have to have feeder service to every domestic airport like ATL to get a majority of the transatlantic passengers; in fact, with the addition of JFK-IAH/MSP/CLT feeder services by next summer, more than 85% of US airline passengers will have access to DL's JFK international ops. DL will serve around 45 domestic US cities from JFK by then...


As to the original question, JFK-KBP has built up very nicely since its introduction in the summer of 06. As MAH correctly pointed out, it was slow in the beginning, with pretty low loads in the front; however, loads have been strong this year including respectable up-front loads. During this fall, JFK-KBP has been one of the strongest Eastern European performers in the system.


User currently offlineUalcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5100 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
Poland is the largest eastern Europe market after Russia but it is heavily concentrated in Chicago where DL is not strong.

I've often wondered why UA hasn't started ORD-WAW given the large Polish community in Chicago, and especially since LOT's a *A member.


User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5009 times:

AeroSvit is a joke. Delta's definitely worth the extra $50-100 in Coach, or the $300 in business to get a real business product.
I don't think either Delta or AeroSvit will do well this winter. VV is only full thanks to cheap connections from SVO (consistently the lowest fare, even last minute) and India, and DL gets a lot of domestic feed which fills them up.

-A



What now?
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22907 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4861 times:

Quoting Addd (Reply 6):
Good question about WAW - I did not realize that NO U.S. carrier currently flies to Poland, and LO is the only airline flying direct US-Poland routes... There MUST be a logical explanation for this, although I can not find one...

But besides for the issues at Okecie (which I do think are part of the problem), LO is the reason that DL isn't flying to Poland. None of these other 'secondary routes' have a carrier which is a major alliance member effectively flying daily on the route (between EWR and WAW). Add to that the fact that the U.S. Poland market is not that large and that 3 of the 4 largest Polish expat communities in the States already have extensive direct service to WAW (and KRK in some cases, and RZE in one case), and you don't exactly have a recipe for success.

FWIW, I think there's a good chance that we see US in Poland before DL.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
How Is Delta Doing With Their JFK-LGW Flights? posted Mon Sep 17 2007 04:17:24 by 747fan
How Is United Doing On The IAD-KWI Route? posted Sun Apr 1 2007 19:47:08 by Stealth777
How Is Avianca Doing On The New VLN Route? posted Mon Aug 21 2006 08:37:17 by Poh2
How Is IB Doing On LOS Route? posted Tue Oct 4 2005 14:40:44 by Soups
How Is SA Doing On The JNB-IAD-JNB Route? posted Sun Oct 2 2005 16:18:06 by SA7700
How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route? posted Fri Sep 23 2005 04:10:13 by LACA773
How Is SAS Doing On The CPH-BEY Route? posted Mon Jan 24 2005 07:52:28 by ME201
How Is Israir Doing On TLV-CDG? posted Tue Jul 10 2007 23:14:27 by LY777
How Is SQ Doing On SIN-PVG posted Sat Aug 12 2006 07:53:53 by Chinaeastern
How Is IB Doing On Central American Routes? posted Wed Nov 30 2005 11:04:46 by RootsAir