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Cathay Pacific Order 7 X 773ER & 10 X 747-8F  
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4211 posts, RR: 89
Posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11866 times:
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As we know Boeing have a policy of allowing their customers to announce their orders when they wish. This week the momentum builds with LAN, WJ and now Cathay Pacific placing their largest ever direct order with Boeing.

The lead up to the Dubai Airshow is on and this is well covered in the Official Dubai 2007 Airshow: Boeing Thread this order warrants it's own thread.

Cathay Pacific have ordered the following:

7 x 777-300ER to take their total firm orders for the model to 30, and;

10 x 747-8F plus 14 x Purchase Rights

From the Cathay Pacific website;

Cathay Pacific places order for 17 more new aircraft
8 November 2007


Cathay Pacific Airways today announced its biggest-ever direct-purchase commitment for new aircraft, placing firm orders for 10 Boeing 747-8 Freighters and a further seven Boeing 777-300ER passenger aircraft directly from the Boeing Company. The airline has also taken up purchase rights for another 14 of the new freighter type.

The announcement for the new aircraft order – valued at approximately US$5.2 billion at list prices - comes as Cathay Pacific continues to expand its fleet and further develop its passenger and cargo services to further strengthen Hong Kong’s position as a leading international aviation hub.

The airline currently operates 19 freighters and before today’s announcement already had commitments for eight more - six Boeing 747-400ERF Extended Range Freighters and two 747-400BCF Boeing Converted Freighters - for delivery by 2009. The addition of the 10 new Boeing 747-8F new-generation freighters will enhance the airline’s cargo capacity and at the same time allow it to begin a phased withdrawal of its fleet of seven older, less fuel-efficient Boeing 747-200F “Classic” freighters by 2012.

The order for additional Boeing 777-300ER passenger aircraft means Cathay Pacific now has a firm commitment for 30 of the aircraft type for delivery by 2012, making it the largest such commitment of any airline in Asia for the 777-300ER. Three have already been delivered and will be used to operate the airline’s fast-expanding long-haul services primarily to North America, starting with the third daily flight to New York which launches 15 November.


http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_INTL/homepage Click on the press release on the right side of the screen

- This is Cathay's biggest-ever direct-purchase commitment for new aircraft

- Takes them to 30 firm 777-300ERs all for delivery by 2012

- Raises the question, when will they next order further 777-300ERs and is the Model destined for any of their affiliates

- Are the 748-F Purchase Rights quietly convertible into the 747-8i? Or are they entirely to cover future 742F / 744BCF retirements and other frames?

- Do they require a regional Freighter or is demand and projected growth only able to be met by what they have plus existing space on their PAX fleet?

- What is their position on their future VLA PAX Requirement. Cargo = 748-F, Pax = Possible future A380 order?

This is an order of substance, thoughts and opinions would be appreciated, let the discussion progress. Thank you

Regards, PanAm_DC10


Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31240 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11795 times:
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I see this important for two points:

1. CX is a serious 747 passenger-to-freighter conversion customer, yet they still see a need for a fleet of new-build freighters. So the 747-8F may not quite be under the threat from 744BCF and 744SF conversions as some think...

2. Having just recently taken delivery of their first three 77Ws with two more out at PAE, adding another seven immediately seems to be a vote of confidence in the type.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4405 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11764 times:

Congrats to Boeing and Cathay! Good for the 748 program.

User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11668 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
WJ

Must have missed this order, can you elaborate?



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9690 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11653 times:

It's good to see more 747-8's ordered. I'd heard another order was getting close. It's good to see it from CX.

This also shows CX's commitment to the 777. They were one of the first and are one of the most loyal customers for the airplane type. They must like what they are getting out of the 773ERs already in the fleet.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31240 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11631 times:
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Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
Raises the question, when will they next order further 777-300ERs and is the Model destined for any of their affiliates

I would think they would continue to take them if they can find a home.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
Are the 748-F Purchase Rights quietly convertible into the 747-8i? Or are they entirely to cover future 742F / 744BCF retirements and other frames?

I am sure they are convertible, but I still feel the A380 is going to be CX's VLA of choice over the next two decades.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
Do they require a regional Freighter or is demand and projected growth only able to be met by what they have plus existing space on their PAX fleet?

That I cannot answer. I would think the A332F would make a very good regional freighter.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
What is their position on their future VLA PAX Requirement. Cargo = 748-F, Pax = Possible future A380 order?

My money, such as it is, would be on the A380.


User currently offlineAndrewtang From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 461 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11566 times:

Did anyone realise the graphic for the CX 748F render shows it in Full CX colour instead of bare metal. This may fit in with the recent rumours that the bare metal are not as good as it was originally intended for.

User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4825 posts, RR: 44
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11423 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
My money, such as it is, would be on the A380.

My money too would be on a future A 380 order (in 2 years) as CX would need this aircraft to effectively compete against EK/KE/TG/SQ/LH/AF on Europe-Asia and Europe-Australia routes flown via Asian hubs.

I forsee many A 343 operated routes to Europe and North America being replaced by the B 773ER in due course.


User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11182 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
10 x 747-8F plus 14 x Purchase Rights

Is this along with the (6) 744ERF they placed back in June 06' or is this a order conversion?

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
- Takes them to 30 firm 777-300ERs all for delivery by 2012

They are now playing with the carriers that operate large 77W fleets... AF & EK!

http://www.reuters.com/article/mergersNews/idUSHKG434320071108



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 11038 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 8):
Is this along with the (6) 744ERF they placed back in June 06' or is this a order conversion?

Answer is below:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
The airline currently operates 19 freighters and before today’s announcement already had commitments for eight more - six Boeing 747-400ERF Extended Range Freighters and two 747-400BCF Boeing Converted Freighters - for delivery by 2009. The addition of the 10 new Boeing 747-8F new-generation freighters will enhance the airline’s cargo capacity and at the same time allow it to begin a phased withdrawal of its fleet of seven older, less fuel-efficient Boeing 747-200F “Classic” freighters by 2012.



Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 8):
They are now playing with the carriers that operate large 77W fleets... AF & EK!

According to Wikipedia, SIA has 11 of 19 ordered 777-300ERs on hand as a part of its fleet of 65 777s, so I'd add them to the list too.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2724 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 11012 times:

A shame they didn't order the 748I, but who knows in the future...


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineFlysherwood From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10980 times:

I can't believe we haven't heard from Keesje regarding this. Oh yeah, that's right, it is a 747 order!!!  Smile Way to go CX and Boeing. I guess that reports of the 777's demise were a little premature.

User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 36
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10862 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):

- Are the 748-F Purchase Rights quietly convertible into the 747-8i? Or are they entirely to cover future 742F / 744BCF retirements and other frames?

IMO not. The timing of this announcement is highly interesting as it is only days after Boeing firmed the B747-800I configuration. I think CX was looking to see how Boeing decided: go for Emirates or leave it as it is.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
- What is their position on their future VLA PAX Requirement. Cargo = 748-F, Pax = Possible future A380 order?

The B747-800I tops out with the configuration and is limited as a future growth plattform. All traffic projections for Asia show a massive increase in passengers travelling, and that indicates that at one point the A380-900 will become a realitiy out of necessity. HAving the A380 already in your fleet will give you a learning curve how to cope with a real double-decker - and it gives you the option to increase your revenue potential over the B748.

Still, they might go the way Lufthansa has gone, but I doubt it. They had every chance to go for the B748 NOW, but they obviously have selected just the Freighter.



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12564 posts, RR: 35
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10830 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 11):
A shame they didn't order the 748I, but who knows in the future...

It doesn't surprise me that CX ordered the 747-8F; it needed a large freighter and clearly, the A380F is a non-runner. The 747-8F was always going to be the better choice for CX. Nor do I think that the 747-8F order makes the pax model inevitable (for CX), because after the 747-8, where does it go? That's it, no growth potential, which there will be with the A380 (-900). BA cited revenue potential as a major factor in its decision and this will no doubt influence other carriers.


User currently offlineFlysherwood From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10792 times:

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 13):
All traffic projections for Asia show a massive increase in passengers travelling, and that indicates that at one point the A380-900 will become a realitiy out of necessity. HAving the A380 already in your fleet will give you a learning curve how to cope with a real double-decker - and it gives you the option to increase your revenue potential over the B748.

The A380 has been for sale for 7 years!!! Why haven't they ordered it yet? They have 42 777's on order, so it is not like they are not buying anything at this time.


User currently offlineAerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2743 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10368 times:

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 12):
Still, they might go the way Lufthansa has gone, but I doubt it. They had every chance to go for the B748 NOW, but they obviously have selected just the Freighter.

I think your argument applies to both the A380 and 748I equally. The A380 has been on sale for seven years, afterall.

Personally, I believe CX's strategy is emminently sensible and responsible. With Oasis, CX faces the prospect of at least two challengers on many of its routes, with LHR seeing BA, VS, NZ, QF, Oasis and CX. That's an awful lot of capacity to justify A380s, which don't provide the flexibility of the 77Ws. They can't be as efficiently deployed across the CX network as a 777 can.

I'm NOT saying the A380 is unsuitable for all airlines. I am saying that its usefulness is limited to a handful of international routes and that while it works for some airlines, for others it wont. CX is apparently pursuing an alternative strategy.

If Airbus goes ahead with an A380-900, then that would change things. I think the -900 would be enough of a capacity change to really affect the market. However, given that Airbus have yet to sell more than 200 frames of the baseline model(please correct me if I'm wrong) when breakeven is in the 400s somewhere (again, please correct me if wrong), it would be a very hard business case to put forth.

[Edited 2007-11-08 13:23:53]

User currently offlineAerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2743 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 10317 times:

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 13):
That's it, no growth potential, which there will be with the A380 (-900). BA cited revenue potential as a major factor in its decision and this will no doubt influence other carriers.

This argument always perplexes me.

They have purchased 30 77Ws, with very little prospect of growth potential there in terms of fuselage growth. Yes they purchased the baseline 777, but they also purchased the baseline 747 and the 748 is the end of the line, as the 77W is. Kind of voids the "growth potential" argument, doesn't it?

[Edited 2007-11-08 13:43:45]

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 10294 times:

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 11):
I can't believe we haven't heard from Keesje regarding this. Oh yeah, that's right, it is a 747 order!!!

I think few people doubt the current market position of the 747-8F. Its the 747-8i.

Maybe Cathay ordering 773ER´s +747-8F´s helps sink in some reality.

I doubt it. BA, QF and SQ skipping it didn´t ring a bell either.. maybe the Chinese..

Yes the Chinese, they owe the US some trade balancing !


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31240 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 10210 times:
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Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 16):
This (growth potential) argument always perplexes me.

(CX) have purchased 30 77Ws (and there is) very little prospect of growth potential there in terms of fuselage (size). Yes they purchased the baseline 777, but they also purchased the baseline 747 and the 748 is the end of the line, as the 77W is. Kind voids the "growth potential" argument, doesn't it?

The new HKG airport is not nearly as slot and capacity constrained as the old one was. So CX likely is not facing any real capacity constraints their nor likely is seeing anything elsewhere outside of maybe LHR.



I am starting to form the opinion that the best sales agent for the A380-800 is EK. They seem to have put the fear of Allah into any carrier that flies between the EU and Oceania/Australia.

I really believe SQ invested heavily in the A380 to try and keep SIN relevant in the face of DXB/JXB.

QF no doubt fears SQ eventually being granted route-authority between Australia and North America so they bought the A388 both to protect them should that day ever come as well as to fight-off SQ's and EK's A388s on the Kangaroo Route.

BA had a choice - fly the A388 or give up serving Australia.

Airlines like MH and TG and QR who have bought a handful are going to use them to serve LHR because the slots they have now are the only slots they're likely to have, so they need the biggest plane they can get to grow traffic on that route.

AF and LH are about the only major A388 purchases I can think of that were not driven by either the need to serve LHR or the prospect of facing EK on core trunk routes. LH and UA drive a ton of TATL traffic so the A388 is a natural growth model for them. And of AF's North American partners, only NW flies the 747, so about the only way to grow TATL traffic is to grow the plane or the frequencies and the former is likely cheaper.


User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3574 posts, RR: 67
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 10149 times:

It appears these are new orders, not previous "Unidentified" orders.

As such, they bring 2007 777 net orders to 110, making 2007 the third best year for 777 net sales.

2005 - 153
2000 - 116
2007 - 110
1995 - 101



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineFlysherwood From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 10066 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 17):
I think few people doubt the current market position of the 747-8F

That's all Boeing needs to make money on the entire program. Airbus on the other hand...  Yeah sure


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9398 times:

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 19):
It appears these are new orders, not previous "Unidentified" orders.

As such, they bring 2007 777 net orders to 110, making 2007 the third best year for 777 net sales.

2005 - 153
2000 - 116
2007 - 110

So much for the A350 killing off the 777...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9332 times:

It would appear that Cathay are following their OneWorld partner American Airline's strategy of playing in the big league with small planes (A380 giant, 748 big, 773ER small)

It has it's advantages in a conservative kind of way. Still my favourite airline.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9023 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
So much for the A350 killing off the 777...

Just like the 787 didn't kill off the A330.

Airlines can't wait 8 years for planes they need now. 2-3 years is bad enough. But to wait 8, that's 5 years of lost revenue for expansion, or 5 years of high costs to operate old planes. (only QF is that short sighted...  Wink )

So the A350 won't kill off the 777 completely until 2017. By 2017, Boeing will have a response of some kind.

The 787 won't kill off the A330 completely until about 2012. But the A350-900 arrives in 2013 and the A350-800 in 2014, so Airbus is covered at least on the A330-300 front.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2588 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8982 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
- Are the 748-F Purchase Rights quietly convertible into the 747-8i? Or are they entirely to cover future 742F / 744BCF retirements and other frames?

I think the latter rather than the former. I wouldn't rule out a CX order for the 748i at some point in the future, but I wouldn't lay any money on it either.
As for the 748F order, it's just more proof that any current 747F operator is a likely 748F buyer. I'd say very few current 747F operators won't buy the 748F.
Nice to see a bunch more 777's as well - there's still value to this plane and the A350 won't kill it for a few more years yet. By then Boeing will have wrung out as much money as possible from the program.


25 Sh0rtybr0wn : Thats an optimistic estimate at best. But what can you do if you're buying airplanes, order , wait, and hope. I too think QF would have really been g
26 VC10DC10 : What do you think about Northwest?
27 Ikramerica : What I mean is that Airbus will sell a lot of A330-300s up until the A350 starts delivering, and then the A333 will die off, but so what? Airbus has
28 Stitch : And considering the bulk of those are 77Ws followed by 77Fs with a smattering of 77Ls and 77Es, and taking into account list/sale price inflation, I
29 ER757 : I think NW will be a 748F customer eventually. Their CEO is on record as saying that's his preferred option when it comes to replacing the 742F's - 7
30 Stitch : If they use the nose door on their 747-200Fs, then I agree. Otherwise, 744BCFs might be better for them.
31 ER757 : Yes - they definitely use the nose doors. I've given them oversized cargo in the past and watched it get loaded
32 Post contains images Iwok : Interesting news. I you go to the Boeing sales update on the website, the 748's are not shown. I wonder why? Perhapse, part of the order is a convers
33 Da man : If this is the case, according to my understanding of what Boeing is doing in regards to the transition between the 747-400ERF/F and 747-8F, there wi
34 Post contains links PanAm_DC10 : To Clarify, the Boeing Website is updated only until November 6th. This was announced November 8th. Boeing updated the October Database on their O&D
35 United Airline : I suppose these B 777-300ERs are not going to replace anything except maybe a few A 340-300s from SQ (Are they still in the fleet?) as well as the A 3
36 United Airline : I suppose CX wants to see how the B 747-8 and A 380 perform in reality before they order anything
37 Karan69 : What is the next best replacement the market has to offer, i dont see the 783 being as successful as the 333. How would the 359 or 7810 compete again
38 Flighty : Uh, the 77W is part of a "family." That means you can have 1 pool of mechanics, spares and pilots (more or less) and FAs to run 2 fleets, big and sma
39 CCA : I hope we get to see the 742F, 744F, 744BCF, 744ERF & 748F all in CX colors at once, should be a one of a kind shot for the database.
40 Post contains images EGCC777LR : Surely everyone loves what there getting from there 77W's
41 CX flyboy : The Silver Bullets were doing ok, and did save weight over the standard paint scheme. For the 748F, Boeing has told CX that they have a newer much li
42 Post contains images WINGS : Cool image from Boeing, to celebrate another great achievement for the 748F and 77W program. Both the undisputed leaders in their respective classes.
43 Norcal773 : CX isn't among the first airline to operate the type unless you're referring to the 773 and not the 77W. Their first 77W was delivered less than two
44 Post contains images Andrewtang : Thanks CX flyboy. So for the upcoming 747-467ERF, will those frames be wearing those new lighter paint?
45 CCA : Anyone else think the lettering should be enlarged?
46 NA : As there are only the 3 odd A346s in CX fleet I think that replacement by the new order is a safe bet. The A343s are getting old by 2012, but also th
47 Columba : The question is does CX needs 24 747 freighters if they convert all options ? Or does a fleet of 12 747-8I and 12 747-8F make more sense for them ?
48 NA : Even the oldest of CX 747-400F/BCFs should still be good for a further 12-15 years of service, so its only the 7 742s which must be replaced in the fo
49 Columba : Another approach on the question if CX is leaning towards the A380 or 747-8I is to take a look at which airlines that have ordered the 747-8F also hav
50 CX flyboy : Good question actually. I hope they are silver as they will look brilliant!! YES!!!!!!!
51 ER757 : This is a very keen observation - but it will olny bode well for the A380's future if the A388's run with consistently high load factors. If they are
52 Flysherwood : How much weight is actually saved by keeping the frame silver? I agree with this. 24ea. 7478F is an awful lot of freighter capacity.
53 Stitch : If CX wishes to be a - even the - major cargo player in Asia, perhaps this is the price of entry?
54 Post contains links Trex8 : well CI presently have 21 744Fs and they are smaller than CX, SQs and KEs cargo operations http://www.aircargoworld.com/archives/features/1_sep06.htm
55 Alangirvan : Sorry if I have not read it somewhere else on the thread, but does CX have a choice of powerplants for the 747-8Fs?
56 Brendows : The GEnx-2B67 is the only engine offered on the 748i/F. You save about 200kg.
57 Flysherwood : Yes, but my understanding is that it is to replace the 747-200's and for expansion. That's a lot of expansion.
58 Stitch : Well perhaps CX then needs this many to stay #6 and keep #7 CI from moving up and displacing them, or they may want to try and displace SQ as #5...
59 Post contains images Iwok : Right, but the 777's are listed on the website whereas the 748's are not: maybe they are not firmed up yet, or were firmed after the 777's? That is g
60 Iwok : Right, but I could make that argument right back at you. The 747 family covers all the older 742/3/4 models and also offers a complete family for fre
61 Post contains links PanAm_DC10 : To clarify, the 5 x 77Ws listed on the Boeing website were ordered in August of this year. They are already accounted for. As quoted in the Media rel
62 Raggi : Eh, are the 777s listed on Boeing's website? Not that I could find. Care to elaborate? I believe both the 748Fs and the 777Ws will be new additions t
63 Post contains images Iwok : Guys, I just checked back in to the Boeing website, and for some reason, I kept looking at that LAN Chile order for 26 787's and got totally mixed up
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