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Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?  
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6630 times:

Why is everyone just sitting back watching Delta rake in a gold mine? I think it's great for Delta but I'm just confused as to why next summer they will have seven destinations in Africa and not one other major will even step foot there. It's an entire continent that's underserved!

Is it aircraft utilization? We see AA starting flights from JFK-BCN, and a few other places in Europe, but all those flights already have a bunch of competition. With CO taking away HNL-NGO, why not put that aircraft on EWR-LOS? I bet we will see something like EWR-LYS instead.

I am happy to see that my favorite airline will be making loads of cash on these flights to Africa. Maybe they'll even add a couple of more destinations while the others sit back and gawk. We'll have to see.




Delta's routes to Africa next summer:
ATL-DKR-JNB
ATL-LOS
JFK-DKR-CPT
JFK-DKR-NBO
JFK-LOS
JFK-ACC
JFK-CAI

I have one more question: Why is it that Delta will be flying to Lagos next month, when Continental wasn't allowed to fly there? When Delta announced this back in February, many people doubted this flight would ever get off the ground. We are just a couple weeks away from the inagural and flights are already full for days.


The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBAKJet From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6615 times:

There probably isn't enough traffic to justify more than one US major carrier to Africa and Delta is already there.

[Edited 2007-11-10 18:56:31]

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33273 posts, RR: 71
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6602 times:

Quoting BAKJet (Reply 1):
There probably isn't enough traffic to justify more than one US major carrier to Africa and Delta is already there.

Of course there is.

Delta is just a bigger risk taker than other airlines, and flying to Africa involves financial risks, uncertaintity of the market's stability, and high start up and security costs that Delta is willing to spend and others are not. Delta also has more aircraft available for expansion, and a flight to Africa might sometimes require longer turn-arounds just by the nature of the airport so utilization can potentially be high. It's easier to enter a market like Barcelona than it is to start flying to Accra.

You will see other U.S. carriers enter the Africa market in due time. American, Continental, and United, through Miami, Newark, and Dulles, respectively, have perfect hubs to exploit this market. It is only a matter of when, not if, and I would not be shocked to see CO in Africa by 2009, and American by 2011.

In a way, Delta is doing all the dirty work for them. They are showing there is a profitable market, establishing U.S. carriers in the region, leading towards significant security upgrades at African airports (I'm not sure if Delta financially helps in this arena, but I think, at least with Lagos, they have), and reducing the financial risks for others. Delta has the benefit of establishing themselves first, but if other airlines like what Delta is doing, they will copy. Airlines are happy to sitback and watch what Delta does. They don't need to worry about being "locked out" in the future. There will be room for AA, CO, and UA to enter when they want to.

[Edited 2007-11-10 19:08:04]


a.
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4415 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6578 times:

Quoting Evan767 (Thread starter):
Is it aircraft utilization?

That's one of the top three constraints. The other two are a near-total lack of market presence (recall that DL did brisk business to Africa via codeshares with AF and before then SR/SN) and a highly frustrating regulatory environment.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6578 times:

Questions like this always amaze me.

It's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

If other airlines felt they could operate routes between North American and Africa and earn a profit, they would be doing it.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6567 times:

I am sure the other carriers are more then happy to have DL go into Africa and sit back and watch what happens for now. Right now there are plenty of markets that do not require the risks that Africa does.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11966 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6567 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
You will see other U.S. carriers enter the Africa market in due time. American, Continental, and United, through Miami, Newark, and Dulles, respectively, have perfect hubs to exploit this market. It is only a matter of when, not if, and I would not be shocked to see CO in Africa by 2009, and American by 2011.

I could see, economic and security conditions permitting:

United

IAD-LOS (daily 763)

Continental

EWR-LOS (daily 762-possibly 764)
EWR-DKR (daily 762)

American

MIA-ACC-NBO (3-4x weekly 763)
MIA-DKR-BJL (3-4x weekly 763)
MIA-LOS-JNB (daily 763-possibly 777 if they have it)


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33273 posts, RR: 71
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6551 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
American

MIA-ACC-NBO (3-4x weekly 763)
MIA-DKR-BJL (3-4x weekly 763)
MIA-LOS-JNB (daily 763-possibly 777 if they have it)

I personally don't think NBO or BJL would be likely, but rather, possibly a schedule of two daily flights to South Africa - one each to Cape Town and Jo'Burg - with the Jo'Burg flight stopping daily in Lagos, and the Cape Town flight alternating between Accra and Dakar. I think that would be a great initial way for AA to launch into Africa.



a.
User currently onlineMike89406 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1494 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6545 times:

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 4):
Questions like this always amaze me.

It's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

If other airlines felt they could operate routes between North American and Africa and earn a profit, they would be doing it.


Then if what I'm hearing is correct DL is doing pretty good in the Africa market so far why is DL the only one there? So by you're analogy If it's about money then CO and other carriers are losing out. And eventually DL will have a stronger hold in Africa providing the market stays decent. And If I'm not mistaken some African carriers arent performing as well these days.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

[Edited 2007-11-10 19:15:17]

User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6485 times:

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 4):
If other airlines felt they could operate routes between North American and Africa and earn a profit, they would be doing it.

But they aren't...

Responses like this always amaze me...

It is after all, all about the money.

Africa = $$$



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1367 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6303 times:

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 3):
The other two are a near-total lack of market presence (recall that DL did brisk business to Africa via codeshares with AF and before then SR/SN) and a highly frustrating regulatory environment.

That regulatory environment gets a lot more friendly if you have the right contacts in the right governments, which may or may not involve the right, um, regulatory fees paid. As mentioned, DL's business relationships are better established in Africa.

It would seem logical that there would probably be an uptick in Africa service with the introduction of 787s. They've got the range to make some of these routes work that are a bit tough for 767s and the right capacity for many of the routes.


User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 780 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6227 times:

Quoting Evan767 (Thread starter):
I have one more question: Why is it that Delta will be flying to Lagos next month, when Continental wasn't allowed to fly there?

Because the Nigerian authorities refused landing rights to CO, when VK was not allowed to serve the US. US authorities refused to give landing rights to VK, since they considered it a British airline. This was all of sudden no problem anymore when the EU-US open skies agreement was approved: in the same days VA was approved and all political barriers for VK to serve the US were removed. This cleared the skies for DL to get approval for LOS, and I guess CO lost appetite for the time being. But did DL get the final nod from Nigerian authorities yet?


User currently offlineRamik From Egypt, joined Sep 2007, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6198 times:

I believe that after MS joined star alliance UA might introduce CAI-IAD or CAI-ORD. At the very least if this happens then DL might see some future competition on it new routes !!

User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6129 times:

Remember, Skyteam has extensive connections into Africa via Air France and Kenyan Airways, BA has oneworld connections, and SAA does Star alliance. I'm sure there are more, but those are all big codeshare partners, I believe.

I wouldn't be surprised to see more US carriers going into Africa. I think DL is smart by starting to build up there now.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5326 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6069 times:

For what it's worth, North American did the advance work for DL by showing that Accra and Lagos could be operated safely and profitably.

User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6527 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5973 times:

Quoting Evan767 (Thread starter):
Why is everyone just sitting back watching Delta rake in a gold mine?

Are there any indications that this is true. Sources?


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4762 posts, RR: 44
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5949 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 15):
Are there any indications that this is true. Sources?

Africa is doing well.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6527 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5896 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 16):
Africa is doing well.

It very well might be true, but no one other than a few insiders at DL would know that. If you are one, then thanks for your prompt answer, if you aren't one then..................................


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4762 posts, RR: 44
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5863 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 17):
It very well might be true, but no one other than a few insiders at DL would know that. If you are one, then thanks for your prompt answer, if you aren't one then

Trust it's doing well. Whether I am "DL" or not is not the question.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5835 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 15):
Are there any indications that this is true. Sources?



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 16):
Africa is doing well.



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 17):
It very well might be true, but no one other than a few insiders at DL would know that. If you are one, then thanks for your prompt answer, if you aren't one then..................................

I wouldn't question him....

[Edited 2007-11-11 08:15:04]


The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6527 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5655 times:

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 19):
I wouldn't question him....

You didn't, I questioned him. Actually, you were the one I first questioned about where your info came from.


User currently offlineEPCOT From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5484 times:

There are a lot of people on here with very reliable information that cannot divulge its source, or their real identity because of their job. Financial details about the profitability of the Africa routes would obviously not be meant for public consumption. You can believe him, or not believe him. Just because he doesn't cite a Wall Street Journal article showing Delta made a bizillion dollars on the routes, doesn't mean it isn't true.... Or he could just be a 12 year old plane spotter  Wink

Take everything you read on here as rumor and heresay. Just remember, many rumors are actually true, or at least based in truth.

Cheers

EPCOT


User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5019 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 20):
You didn't, I questioned him. Actually, you were the one I first questioned about where your info came from.

My info comes from people like Alitalia744, and I trust him. Happy?



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3133 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 8):
Then if what I'm hearing is correct DL is doing pretty good in the Africa market so far why is DL the only one there? SO by you;re analogy If it's about money then CO and other carriers are losing out. And eventually DL will have a stronghold in Africa providing the market stays decent. And If I'm not mistaken some African carriers arent performing as well/

The problem is that none of the other US carriers (esp. CO) have the aircraft to launch these longer flights. DL does so they have the advantage for the time being. AA might have the availability, but they're much more conservative and likely won't add Africa for a couple more years. But the rumors persist that they will. CO is most likely but they can't expand their long-haul network until the 787s arrive.

UA is the other likely option - they have an aircraft shortage as well but somehow keep adding flights to China and from LAX.

Quoting KL577 (Reply 11):
Because the Nigerian authorities refused landing rights to CO, when VK was not allowed to serve the US. US authorities refused to give landing rights to VK, since they considered it a British airline. This was all of sudden no problem anymore when the EU-US open skies agreement was approved: in the same days VA was approved and all political barriers for VK to serve the US were removed. This cleared the skies for DL to get approval for LOS, and I guess CO lost appetite for the time being. But did DL get the final nod from Nigerian authorities yet?

Good to know. DL must be expecting huge profits in LOS now that they're proposing *two* daily flights. It is also frequently mentioned that LOS might be a good candidate as a first stop in a tag-on flight, so I'm assuming 5th freedom rights are available there.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4749 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
and American by 2011.

why that particular year?

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 22):
My info comes from people like Alitalia744, and I trust him.

Why? LOL.


25 Post contains images Ikramerica : why is delta completely ignoring Asia? i mean, if we are going to ask why others are not focusing on africa, isn't this also a fair question? answer
26 ConcordeBoy : Curious: how exactly does adding four Asian nonstops in the last three years, on top of several others planned... count as "completely ignoring Asia"
27 DFWMzuri : I was thinking this thought as I read the responses. I know the AA flight I took to DEL was full. I also know the 2 BA and 1 SN flights I took to NBO
28 TWA902fly : I think an expansion to Asia will come once Delta recieves more 777s and 787s. They utilize their small 777 fleet very well, and literally have no ai
29 Post contains images Alitalia744 : C'mon ConcordeBoy - you know you also subscribe to the belief - if it flies over the Atlantic it isn't headed to Asia...
30 ConcordeBoy : ...what in the name of Satan's hairy balls are you talking about? Not only is that accusation blatantly false, but I've never once said nor even impli
31 MAH4546 : Widebody fleet expansion should likely begin around then.
32 TJCAB : Actually, the african market is there. The money is there. We are charged an arm and a leg to get there. Typical low season fare IAD-DLA is about $1,7
33 Post contains links Aviateur : It's a combination of things -- mostly the expectation of profit. As one poster already pointed out, if carriers believes it can make money in Africa,
34 Evan767 : It's a fair question, even though Delta did decide to start non-stops to ICN and PVG. Maybe because those markets are already served by a number of c
35 RwSEA : No it's mostly because DL's network isn't suited to be a major player into East Asia. ATL can do ok for serving the biggest markets, but it's a prett
36 Ikramerica : That's all very true. They had only 8 777s and they were otherwise occupied. DL is just now venturing back into Asia, after sitting on a single NRT f
37 LTBEWR : I would also suggest that there is too much endemic corruption, corrupt governments and security issues in Africa to attract USA airline investment in
38 MAH4546 : That isn't necessarily true. Airfare to Africa is typically higher than to the U.S., and most of Africa is just as close to the U.S. as parts of east
39 Luv2fly : Yes and Africa comes with high security charges and outright corruption.
40 Airbuske : I know for a fact that if an airline started flying from NBO to a major city/hub on each coast of continental US, for example NBO-JFK (6395nm) and NBO
41 Viscount724 : But operating costs in Africa can be very high. Fuel is extremely expensive in many parts of Africa due to shipping costs and high taxes etc. Ironica
42 MAH4546 : That's absolutely true, but airfare to the region, thanks to limited service and competition, is more than to Asia, which is significantly farther fr
43 Luv2fly : In theory I am sure, though have a drop off in people traveling and that kills your theory. The parts about high security costs, expensive fuel, corr
44 WorldTraveler : DL looked at areas of the world that were not served by US airlines and recognized there were opportunities for growth in Eastern Europe, Africa, and
45 MAH4546 : That's a very bold statement that you can't backup. Nobody knows how other airlines will enter those regions in the future.
46 Jetdeltamsy : They aren't because there isn't money to be made by North American carriers. I'm glad I amazed you. Africa does not equal money. Africa is the poores
47 MAH4546 : Sorry, but it isn't that simple. There is a lot of money to be made in Africa, just ask Delta, Air France, and SN Brussels. The poorest regions are t
48 ConcordeBoy : Then why have several airlines (AF being the most apparent example) not been hesitant to rather publicly report their most profitable single routes t
49 Viscount724 : AF is in a much different position with respect to the Africa market than US airlines. Many countries in Western and North Africa were previously Fre
50 Airstud : Unless I'm mistaken, Southern Africa's Interair offered the last-ever scheduled 707 passenger service. Then they stopped doing this a couple years ago
51 MAH4546 : I really hope you are kidding with such a stupid statement. Northwest Airlines is still flying DC-9s older than many 707s. And there is, IIRC, still
52 Halls120 : You act like the other carriers have spare long range aircraft just sitting around gathering dust. Every AA and UA international flight I've been on
53 Commavia : I'm not so sure. I'll give you Eastern Europe and the Mid East, but I'm not so certain that Delta will always be the dominant player to Africa. I thi
54 Evan767 : As I stated in an example, AA is just starting a few flights from JFK to a couple places in Europe (I think BRU, BCN, somewhere else?).
55 MAH4546 : This isn't from spare aircraft. It's from re-allocating planes and rescheduling. AA is moving a Miami-Sao Paulo flight to operate during the daylight
56 Halls120 : And I'll bet that the route planners have decided that they can make more money flying to Europe than they can flying to Africa. Again, maybe you kno
57 MAH4546 : Statements like these try to over-simplify exactly how complicated route planning is. It is not as easy as "we can make more money flying to X than Y
58 Post contains images Halls120 : I agree. Just as DL has valid reasons for launching service to Africa, I'm sure the other carriers have reasons to stay out of the market. But accord
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