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Emirates Place Largest A350XWB Commitment  
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 90
Posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 20574 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

Emirates today announced the largest Order / Commitment to date for the A350XWB and in addition increased their firm orders for the A380 to 58 frames.

This is an order / commitment of magnitude which warrants it's own thread so as to not overwhelm the Official Dubai 2007 Airshow: Airbus Thread

The order was announced at the Dubai Air Show by Emirates Chairman Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed al-Maktoum and initial reports state the following;

3 x A380 Firm new orders
8 x A380 Commitment made at Le Bourget 2007 firmed.

70 x A350 Firm Orders ( Currently MoU until appears on Airbus O&D Spreadsheet )
50 x A350 Options

This takes total A350 LoI, MoU, Commitments and Firm orders to over 300.

Emirates also announced an order for 12 further 777-300ERs

This leaves much to be discussed once more details become available;

1: What is the breakdown of the 70 firm A350XWB orders? Primarily -1000s?

2: What variants do the Options cover?

3: When is the delivery schedule expected to commence and what will these replace in the fleet.

4: What influence on GE to provide power for all variants of the A350 given EK will also be the largest 777 operator

5: What routes should we expect these to be deployed on.

6: Prior to the final design freeze what influence will they have in relation to QR

7: Finally at list prices Emirates quite the Airbus component at US$31.1bn and Boeing component at US$3.2bn and a backlog with both OEMS of 246 frames.

Emirates Homepage Airbus Homepage

By Massoud A. Derhally and Andrea Rothman

Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- Airbus SAS, the world's largest planemaker, won an order from Emirates for 70 of its long-range A350s, another 50 options for the aircraft, and 11 superjumbo A380s, with a total value of as much as $31 billion.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...601087&sid=aopfnzNjDKXg&refer=home

2 related Airliners.net threads that may be of note / interest follow:

Emirates' Australian Expansion Plans

Emirates To Be No.1 In Passenger Load By 2015

This is an order of substance, thoughts and opinions would be appreciated, let the quality discussion progress. Thank you.


Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
92 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21478 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 20576 times:

I would imagine the 350s will end up replacing the 777s over time. Thus they order today isn't really for expansion. The options are for expansion, should they be exercised.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6870 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 20576 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
Emirates also announced an order for 12 further 777-300ERs

This takes their total 777 fleet into three figures. (110, by my reckoning.) That's a significant milestone for both the 777 programme and for Emirates.


User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8440 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 20501 times:

How many aircraft do EK have on order now from both manufacturers? there is 128 just between the a380 and A350

User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 20482 times:

interesting to note too that EK has also signed a contract with RR to power their huge A350 fleet!

Looks like GE will be the long term looser, for hanging on to their GE90 for too long.

Sure, it IS a great engine, but its time has come....


User currently offlineAnts From New Zealand, joined Feb 2004, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 20408 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
1: What is the breakdown of the 70 firm A350XWB orders? Primarily -1000s?

2: What variants do the Options cover?

3: When is the delivery schedule expected to commence and what will these replace in the fleet.

1. 50 A350-900s and 20 A350-1000s

2. The 50 options are for the A350-900s.

3. The first A350 will be delivered to Emirates in 2014.

Source: http://business.maktoob.com/News-200...irates_makes_aviation_history.aspx


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 20316 times:

Quoting Ants (Reply 5):
20 A350-1000s

Could these be as substitute for the rumoured 748i order which likely isn't going to happen now that Boeing refused to give EK what they wanted?

I mean, the A350-1000 probably gets close to the 748i capacity and range wise and the number of orders is correct too, not to forget that the original rumour was the order would be 50 + 50, which it is, if we take out a 'last minute' upping with the 20 A350-1000...

Just my personal first minute analysis of the order ...


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12401 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 20161 times:
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Unless Airbus has modified it's production schedule for the A350 variants (2013 -900, 2014 -800, 2015 -1000), this report suggests they're taking more than just the -1000.

http://www.ameinfo.com/137827.html



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6870 posts, RR: 63
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 20153 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 6):
Could these be as substitute for the rumoured 748i order which likely isn't going to happen now that Boeing refused to give EK what they wanted?



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 6):
not to forget that the original rumour was the order would be 50 + 50, which it is, if we take out a 'last minute' upping with the 20 A350-1000...

I'd say you are dead right.  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineAerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2684 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 20076 times:

Didn't the rumours also say that there would be 20-30 A330s as well? Instead we get 20 more A350s. Seems to fit.

The 748i has never been in serious play at EK.


User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3882 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 19910 times:

Largest? Surely the Qatar order for 80 aircraft was larger?  Smile

User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 19805 times:

Quoting Moo (Reply 10):
Largest? Surely the Qatar order for 80 aircraft was larger?
Depends on how you count. If you add the 70 A350XWB and the 11 A380 firmed up together, its larger than QRs order.
Almost makes me think that they ordered the extra 3 A380 for beating QRs Paris order.

Another reflexion. No A350-800 ordered.
Does that mean that EK don't wont a plane of that size, or is the door still open for a B787-9 order later?
Maybe together with a B787-10, when it is offered by Boeing.

[Edited 2007-11-11 02:15:36]


SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12401 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 19554 times:
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Quoting Moo (Reply 10):
Largest? Surely the Qatar order for 80 aircraft was larger?

I think 70+50 A350s and 11 A380s (the original 8 at Paris was an LOI) would be seen as a larger order by most people. Plus all EK's A350s are the larger models, no -800s for them. I'm sure in value terms, it's a bigger order.

Good to see they've gone straight for RRs on their A350s, no waiting around to see if a GE option becomes available (PM must be very happy wink  ).



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineEGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 19470 times:

Quoting Moo (Reply 10):
Largest? Surely the Qatar order for 80 aircraft was larger?



Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
Emirates today announced the largest Order / Commitment to date for the A350XWB

Total A350 commitment by EK = 70 firm + 50 options for a total commitment of 120 A350s.

Total A350 commitment by QR = 80 firm



7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13738 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 19470 times:

The Dubai-based airline has ordered:

50 Airbus A350-900 XWBs and 20 Airbus A350-1000 XWBs



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3882 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 19317 times:

Quoting EGNR (Reply 13):

Total A350 commitment by EK = 70 firm + 50 options for a total commitment of 120 A350s.

Total A350 commitment by QR = 80 firm

Options should not be counted - they are not orders.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 12):
I think 70+50 A350s and 11 A380s (the original 8 at Paris was an LOI) would be seen as a larger order by most people. Plus all EK's A350s are the larger models, no -800s for them. I'm sure in value terms, it's a bigger order.

If you include the A380s, then yes, but thats not the deal we are talking about here  Smile The thread title is 'Emirates Place Largest A350XWB Commitment'.

Now, we don't know the actual order value, but I would be inclined to believe that 20 A350XWB-800s are worth more in list price than 10 A350XWB-900 aircraft, and that's the real difference between the two orders!


User currently offlineEGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 19179 times:

Quoting Moo (Reply 15):
Options should not be counted - they are not orders.

The options form part of the commitment to the A350XWB. As you recognised in an earlier post:

Quoting Moo (Reply 15):
The thread title is 'Emirates Place Largest A350XWB Commitment'

The thread title is not Emirates Place Largest A350XWB Order - so counting options along with the firm orders is correct in this instance.



7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12401 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 19065 times:
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Quoting Moo (Reply 15):
The thread title is 'Emirates Place Largest A350XWB Commitment'.

OK, it's not worth arguing the toss over. But to be pedantic, the thread title does say "Largest A350XWB" commitment", which this clearly is. Yes, the QR A350 order may actually be worth more.

Either way, one thing we can all agree on, this is one honking big order! bigthumbsup 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 90
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18830 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

At the Emirates press conference naturally much was spoken of. I can add the following information, which may come as a surprise to some. I have no link so therefore I offer my opinion.

Emirates have not finished! They are tendering an RFP for the A358XWB vs the B787-8. Stated by the Sheik himself though he did not mention how many frames it was for.

Also for those who may have missed it. The 77Ws are already booked as Unidentified on Boeings site.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18652 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):

Another discussion point: Where is the rumored 747-8I order? Has that really been changed to the 20 A350-1000, as some have suggested here? Or can we expect it later, when more is known about the aircraft?

I am hoping for some more 747-8I orders, mainly for the sake of diversity. One can't have just A380s, that would be boring at some point.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12401 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18615 times:
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Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 18):
Emirates have not finished!

I didn't doubt it for one minute!

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 18):
They are tendering an RFP for the A358XWB vs the B787-8.

That's interesting. I was wondering if they wanted a plane smaller than the A359 in their fleet, and it seems they do. The only slight surprise is that they're looking at the 787-8 vs A350-800.

There have been lots of rumours that EK was looking to take A333s as "interim lift" and to start replacing A332s. Maybe they've decided to keep the A332s until they can replace them with A358s or 788s.

So maybe their strategy now is:
Use A358s/788s to replace the A332s.
Use A359s to replace A343s, 772s, non-ER 773s.
Use the A3510s instead of 748is for flights to West cost USA.

Plus 50 A350 options for expansion and adjustments as required.

Not to mention a large fleet of 773ERs and A380s.  crazy  faint 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineFlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 699 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18513 times:

Do you think A359R has any role in Emirates' plans in the future?

User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18511 times:

Fantastic news, and a superb start of the Dubai Airshow.
 bigthumbsup 
I am amazed how Airbus positioned the A350 as a little bigger than the B787. They really seemed to have done it right.
With this amazing order, and with October month, Airbus must be back on top of the order throne, in both narrow and widebody segment?!?
I remember someone suggested that Airbus should quit selling widebodies and leave that segment to Boeing.
 Big grin
Anyway ... all commercial products seems to be going ahead nicely now.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12401 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18196 times:
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Confirmation from Airbus that EK's A350 order is firm:
http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...s/07_11_11_emirates_a380_a350.html



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineAutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1592 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18011 times:

Amazing. It was a fantastic day for Airbus and RR, congratulations both.  bigthumbsup  How many engines would that make? I guess about 160 Trent XWB and 50 EA GP7000?

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 18):
Emirates have not finished! They are tendering an RFP for the A358XWB vs the B787-8

This one could go for the 787, as the A358 will suffer from the shrink and may will not be able to match it.



“Faliure is not an option.”
25 Columba : This is really great, I was hoping for the A350 and the 747-8I but still a great order and good news for the A350 programm.
26 CXfirst : I think that is Airbus' order to lose. Fleet comminality is such a strong point, and therefore I think the A350-800 will be a better option for EK. B
27 PM : Only up to a point. EK have 70 A350s on order with maybe another 50 to come. They will necessarily have a vast pool of flight crew and spares and wha
28 A388 : Agreed. Options should be counted here as well, making this the largest A350XWB order (commitment) so far. A388
29 Post contains links and images Hloutweg : Modified Airliner Photos: Design © Luis Contreras Template © Luis Contreras Wow, not quite what many of us expected, but even better for Airbus as t
30 Post contains images Kaitak : I always thought that EK's looking for a 787-10 and A350-900/1000 indicated that they were looking for something a little bigger than the A330-200. I
31 RayChuang : I wonder has Emirates Airways talked with Airbus about higher-MTOW A350-900's that could be used for very long range flights. That will allow EK to fl
32 Post contains images Stitch : First off, congratulations to Airbus. Not a surprise, but still a solid statement of confidence in the A350 program. Second, congratulations to Boeing
33 Post contains images Nycfly75 : Congratulations to Airbus!    Ya, typical Ignorant Jingoism.[Edited 2007-11-11 07:05:59]
34 Columba : I agree with PM but since the A350 will very likely replace the 777s in EK´s fleet at some point I can see the need for another Boeing aircraft. L
35 Post contains links Hloutweg : According to Flightblogger, this is the order brake down: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/
36 Thorben : I don't think the A350s will replace all 777s. A lot of EK's planes are too new to kick them out like that. I expect the 70 A350s to replace: 29 A332
37 Douwd20 : I'm certain GE knows it can't hope to capture every order and the billion dollar price tag was too much for the ROI they would receive otherwise. The
38 Stitch : GE has still sold almost twice as many GE90-11xBs then RR has sold Trent XWBs - even with EK's Trent order today. Even if RR lands all the uncommitte
39 Ilikeflight : I could see this happening I think for many airlines the 350 and 787 can work very well beside each other
40 Wedgetail737 : That's great news for Airbus, when they definitely need it! As much as Boeing would like it, the airline industry can't be dependent on just one large
41 Post contains images Ronerone : I totally agree here. Boeing, with or without EK have practically nailed it with the 787 (not factoring in the recent delay). I believe Airbus needed
42 Thorben : The A380s? It is rather so that EK is actually leasing some from ILFC. And if you look at how many flights EK offers to London daily, you can see wha
43 Post contains links and images Stitch : They will use it to establish a beach-head on new routes and reinforce them to the point (they hope) nobody else will be able to get a serious foot-h
44 DL767captain : I don't think EK was ever serious about a 787-10, i think it was all a ruse to get airbus to either lower the A350 price, or get some improvements out
45 CJAContinental : What are they going to do with all those A380's?
46 Stitch : I believe EK were very serious about the 787-10. EK just wanted it to do as much as the A350-900 and EIS at the same date. Alas, Boeing didn't believ
47 Post contains images Stitch : See Reply 47.
48 Post contains images Lightsaber : Wow! I already regret sleeping in. This order is mind blowing. By my calculations, once EK's fleet exceeds about 225, they will need to initiate opera
49 N14AZ : ... assuming that this time they will get it right and deliver the planes in due time.
50 Post contains images Stitch : Heck, if a ~450-seat A388 can do it, no need for the 747-8I. While your quote is actually of DL767captain in Reply 48, and not of myself in Reply 46,
51 DL767captain : Ya and with the size of planes they operate the A350-900 will probably be their smallest plane! I don't understand how they can do that, but its EK!
52 Post contains images Lightsaber : Alas, for LAX, EK has noted they require a 8500nm range. The current A380 won't do LAX. Maybe SFO, but LAX would be far to load limited. Trust me, I'
53 Post contains images Scbriml : Well, EK was pretty much an all RR airline, and many were shocked when they didn't order RR for their A380s. Since then, they've also invested in a f
54 Post contains images Stitch : Depends on how many they buy. If they order another 70 A350s with GE power, that is a large enough fleet to take advantage of "commonality". Just bec
55 DL767captain : What exactly is an "RFP"?
56 JerseyFlyer : Has anyone else noticed the neat symmetry in EK's new Airbus commitments: 58 388s ordered plus 2 from ILFC = 60 120 A350s = 2 for each A380
57 Scorpio : Request For Proposals. It's where an airline asks the manufacturers to present them with a deal.
58 Post contains images Lightsaber : I think EK to YVR would be an instant hit on the A380. Alas, the Canadian bilateral has been an obstacle. Its Russia inhibiting flights to LAX. 7100n
59 Post contains images Keesje : I think they plan to serve all the worlds hubs with one stop connections central is the mega hub now being created in the desert. The Pacific is on t
60 Stitch : Thanks for answering those questions for me, Lightsaber.
61 LAXDESI : I am not clear as to why 787-8 is being considered as a potential replacement for A332s. A332 has a 3 class seating capacity of 253, whereas 787-8 has
62 Stitch : Be careful when comparing aircraft manufacturer seating specs. Airbus has a higher percentage of Economy seats and Boeing a higher percentage of Firs
63 LAXDESI : Thanks. It sure makes it difficult to compare aircrafts. A358 then will be about 10% larger than A332, and A359 is about 5% larger than A333. In summ
64 Keesje : I think you start off loading payload / replacing it by fuel above ~5500nm for any of those aircraft. Those maximum ranges of around 8000nm with full
65 Moek2000 : Congrats to EK and Airbus... EK looks pretty darn serious about dominating the skies...
66 Post contains images Shamrock350 : Congrats to EK and Airbus, looks like that EK A350 appearing on the Airbus website a few months ago wasn't a "mistake" after all!
67 YULWinterSkies : Wait, they are not flying the route at all at the moment. They will likely not bring a A380 right away!
68 LAXDESI : You are right. For 789, in a 3 class 250 seat configuration with zero cargo payload, the zero fuel weight is 233,500 lbs--equivalent to about 34,000
69 Kaitak744 : Though 7,500nm is roughly the range for DXB-LAX, you would need an aircraft with a much greater range to do the route. DXB has very hot and dry weath
70 Post contains images Lightsaber : I 100% agree! Its not like the GP7200 can't make a bit more thrust. Oops... for some reason I was thinking the A332 was a little bigger than the 788.
71 RayChuang : I believe that EK will use a mix of higher-MTOW A350XWB-900's and 777-200LR's to fly to the US West Coast direct from Dubai. That could make it really
72 WingedMigrator : Pardon the naive question, but what is the limit here? DXB presumably has very long runways to make up for routinely hot conditions, and the altitude
73 KissK : Does this means they will wait for 2014 to serve the US wet coast?
74 Stitch : I think we will see EK 77Ls and A345s opening and serving those routes before then. The A350-900R, which will be the A350 model most-capable of servi
75 Lightsaber : There becomes a tire limit with temperature too. Or more precisely, tire time at speed. Infinite runways cannot compensate fully. I'm assuming you kn
76 Tdscanuck : Having a long runway gives you enough room to get up to speed, but it doesn't do anything to provide extra thrust. The engine-out condition is a thru
77 Post contains images WingedMigrator : Thank you both. How much does temperature play a role in how much lift is produced at a given speed? Seems like the density (and dynamic pressure) wo
78 RayChuang : I believe that Emirates Airways bought the 777-200LR specifically to fly from Dubai to the US West Coast. It'll be an 16-18 hour flight, though.
79 KissK : yes thats it!!
80 BlueSky1976 : Keep in mind that Boeing uses 8-abreast economy configuration for their "standard" 787 load figures - hence the "210 pax" on the lowest end of 787-8
81 BuyantUkhaa : Warmer air has a lower density.
82 LAXDESI : Adding one seat per row in economy would lead to, at the most, a 12.5% increase in number of seats--not enough to reach A332 numbers. However, as I u
84 Stitch : Man I really hope they do not graft the A380 nose on to the A350. She looks sharp now. Anyone have a larger pic of that image? I'd like to use it as
85 Post contains links Singapore_Air : Airbus tend to be very slow in updating their Media Centre. Meanwhile, there are many wallpapers that I think you would find more pleasing to the eye
86 Douwd20 : So is the goal to dethrone Heathrow of that title?
87 Stitch : So is the goal to dethrone Heathrow of that title? It might very well be. The key will be for EK to continue to build code-share agreements with airl
88 Post contains images Scbriml : Whoever drew that diagram doesn't know where Dubai is.
89 Thorben : Indeed. Whichever they choose to replace the A332, it means that 29 A350 are going into expansion then. (Minus 3 for the 77E from my original calcula
90 Tdscanuck : Temperature goes straight to density (for a given altitude). Higher temperature means lower dynamic pressure, which means you need a higher angle of
91 Post contains links and images Shamrock350 : Here's the biggest one I could find from Airbus. Looks great with that nose, shame they are going to get rid of it. The wings look good too so I hope
92 Pihero : I think you'd like to qualify all the above. 1- We operate at given IAS speeds (in all intents and purposes, the performance IAS do not change whatev
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